Khryi Thornton Thread

[Carl]

Well, I don't hear any of you guys panning TT??

If it isn't Capers, then it's the players. If it's the players, then TT needs to be fired - b/c that would mean, outside of Rodgers and the WR's, and hitting on Lacy last year - TT has stunk on top of stink in drafting the entire defense!!!

That said, I don't think it is the players - I see all kinds of talent and ability there, it is simply being misused. Perry and Raji are the poster children for that - if rushing from OLB vs DE didn't matter - then why would he have even cared enough to say he didn't want to be drafted as a LB??

There are so many more advantages to playing a 3-3 and a 4-2 to playing a 2-4, not the least of which is you have more size on the field to deal with the run and get push up the middle. We routinely get gashed with the run when we are in the 2-4.

Next on the list of why the 3-3 and 4-2 are preferrable would be flexibility and creating confusion for the blocking scheme. In Capers 2-4, he rushes 4 guys, almost every snap... the same 4 guys, a static rush. I know what is coming presnap - you know the OL knows what's coming. The players get absolutely no assist from the DC in creating mismatches or creating confusion in the blocking scheme. It is mano-a-mano every snap.

Most of the front seven talent TT has drafted is on the DL - yet most of those guys are standing on the sideline in critical situtations - while B. Jones and Hawk never come off the field... and most observers see both of those players as weaknesses to the defense.

So if our highly drafted talent is standing on the sideline - and 2 of our most lightly regarded players right in the thick of it... how is that not a red flag for you guys??

To be sure, the results have been a disaster... but you think it is all on the players??

I can tell you've just joined the forum as TT has be debated back and forth all the time. Someone else might debate again with you, but I'll just say that if you think a GM should be fired when his team has been one of the best in the league while he has been here, then we can just disagree.

Secondly, nobody here as said it's all on the players and not Capers. In fact, I haven't even seen anyone say Capers is good or is doing a good job. We've just been given examples to point out it's not all Capers or that just moving away from a 2-4 would not be an automatic fix. It's most likely a mix of both Capers and the players.

Also, captainWIMM win has already addressed why Hawk and Jones remain on the field. I personally, don't see how playing defense without middle linebackers on the field could help the team. You need middle linebackers out there and those two happen to be the two best options right now.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I missed a lot of the season due to health issues... if we were running a 3-4, there are varieties of the front that make a difference. Was it an Oakie, Indy, Under, or Solid?? What players were on the field??

Do you have a link??

I watched it on NFL's game rewind.

They were in a base 3-4 defense, stacking the box with at least eight guys (knowing the Eagles would run) and couldn't stop it. The Packers used a combination of Jolly, Pickett, Raji, Daniels and Jones during those eight snaps.

 

[wist43]

I can tell you've just joined the forum as TT has be debated back and forth all the time. Someone else might debate again with you, but I'll just say that if you think a GM should be fired when his team has been one of the best in the league while he has been here, then we can just disagree.

Secondly, nobody here as said it's all on the players and not Capers. In fact, I haven't even seen anyone say Capers is good or is doing a good job. We've just been given examples to point out it's not all Capers or that just moving away from a 2-4 would not be an automatic fix. It's most likely a mix of both Capers and the players.

Also, captainWIMM win has already addressed why Hawk and Jones remain on the field. I personally, don't see how playing defense without middle linebackers on the field could help the team. You need middle linebackers out there and those two happen to be the two best options right now.

I don't want to debate to TT - my point is most of you guys point to the players, and I never hear a single disparaging word about Capers and the alignment.

One thing is for sure - something is terribly, terribly amiss. And since I see a lot of front seven talent, sans Brad Jones and Hawk - and I see that talent standing on the sideline?? I have to ask what's wrong with that picture??

As for the ILB's on the field - you don't need 2 ILB's out there in a nickel. You can match one of them up depending on the team you're facing, the personnel they have the field, and what their tendancies are. If you think they might run it against your nickel? Stick Hawk out there. If you think they're more likely to run their TE up the seam, and flare a RB out in the flat? Stick Brad Jones out there.

The increased flexibility you get from having another DL on the field is that you are committing 3 DL to the rush, and have more beef on the field to deal with a potential run - that frees your ILB from as much responsibility to account for a run. You still have 2 LB's to either cover or blitz. As it is, in Capers 2-4, we almost always stay static, and rush the 2 OLB's and 2 DL straight up. I know it's coming, everyone knows it's coming.

When we have run more 3-4 as our base, we've had more success stopping the run - look at the last 2 49er games from last year... we played very little 2-4. When we've played 3-3, that alignment has produced better results as well. Most other 3-4 teams go to a 3-3 nickel as their base nickel package.

 

[wist43]

I watched it on NFL's game rewind.

They were in a base 3-4 defense, stacking the box with at least eight guys (knowing the Eagles would run) and couldn't stop it. The Packers used a combination of Jolly, Pickett, Raji, Daniels and Jones during those eight snaps.

I'll try to find it... I think I remember watching the end of that game.

Here's a highlight tape of the Detroit blowout... not a single defensive snap that wasn't in the 2-4.

1st and goal from the 1?? I don't care the Lions had 3 WR's on the field - that doesn't mean you have to match up with a 2-4 front!!! Capers gets outcoached with matchups all the time - it's painful to watch.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013112800/2013/REG13/packers@lions#menu=highlights&tab=recap

 

[wist43]

Sorry about your health issues but it surprises me you are so adamant about how horrible Capers and the 2-4 are and now post you missed a lot of the season. And here's something to consider: There is no reason to think the problems on D have one cause. It can (and IMO is) a combination of the talent provided and the DC and his staff. You seem to have concluded the problems are all on Capers and then formulated your argument.

IMO Capers job should be on the line this season. If we don't see significant improvement in the D he should be gone.

I've watched a ton of Packers defense - watched a ton of Capers defenses. I'm a student of the 3-4 going back to the 80's... considered going into coaching back then, but went another direction with my career.

I missed some games last year, but I know what he runs... I was only lukewarm on his hire from the beginning, b/c even though I know he is entirely capable of putting together a lights out game plan, I know he is also entirely capable of putting together a complete crap gameplan - add to that the fact that I think he is a terrible in-game strategist, and rarely makes the right adjustments, and I think you have the recipe for what we've been seeing the past few years.

Capers has a track record - and he usually gets fired after being someplace for about 5 years... by the end of the 5 year period, he is the general behind one of the worst defenses in the league. The only difference now with the Packers is - we didn't fire him, lol...

 

[TJV]

I’ve been a Packers fan since just before Lombardi arrived and have been paying attention since. And my experience and yours watching a ton of Packers defense doesn’t make much difference IMO. Here’s a basic fact that contradicts your argument IMO: I don’t think it is a coincidence that Capers and staff looked one-hellofalot smarter when they were coaching a defense in 2010 that included Collins, Woodson, Cullen Jenkins, and a dynamic BJ Raji (BTW, I believe BJ earned his demotion off of the pass rushing sub packages with his lack of production).

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

well..... to be fair ( and i am NOT sticking up for Capers ) he was not the D coordinator in carolina, he was the head coach and led a new to the NFL team to a 12-4 record in only the 2nd season of that expansion team.

Now.... overall, as a D coordinator, he does not have a great or even good record. He is a light switch guy.... on sometimes, off sometimes. I agree that we need some new blood in that department. Someone a little more intune with the way that the NFL has been changing and not stuck in some old way type of play.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CapeDo0.htm

 

[wist43]

I’ve been a Packers fan since just before Lombardi arrived and have been paying attention since. And my experience and yours watching a ton of Packers defense doesn’t make much difference IMO. Here’s a basic fact that contradicts your argument IMO: I don’t think it is a coincidence that Capers and staff looked one-hellofalot smarter when they were coaching a defense in 2010 that included Collins, Woodson, Cullen Jenkins, and a dynamic BJ Raji (BTW, I believe BJ earned his demotion off of the pass rushing sub packages with his lack of production).

Depends on if you're actually studying the defense, or watching casually - I've actually invested a lot of time in studying defense.

Don't much anymore though, as I've had health issues lately and have 2 young kids. Maybe the kids are the reason for the health issues?? lol...

As for Capers production?? 2011, I put a lot of that on TT... the defense was obviously in need of help, and he did nothing to help it in the draft. Losing Collins hurt for sure.

Still, it was 2011 that Capers went to the 2-4 almost full time - call me crazy, but there is correlation there. As for Raji... I have no idea why he resigned with the team. If I were him, I'd be running away from the Green Bay Packers like they had the plague... they misused him completely from 2011 to now - you could see it in his body language, he was demoralized.

Perry is going to be the same thing... as soon as his contract is up - he's gone. He didn't want to come here in the first place.

The injuries, and lack of talent hurt in 2011 - but to put up those kind of dismal on top of horrible numbers?? No excuse for that. Capers set an all-time NFL record for worst pass defense... there was still some talent on that defense, so I don't excuse it.

Then in 2012 and last year, TT gave Capers a lot of front seven talent - and Capers just sat it on the sideline for the most part. Instead, he played Brad Jones and AJ Hawk. I don't excuse that either.

I know I'm way in the minority on Capers - to most of Packer faithful, TT, MM, and Capers can do no wrong... point to a negative fact, and you'll be attacked like a Jew walking into a **** rally.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

As for the ILB's on the field - you don't need 2 ILB's out there in a nickel. You can match one of them up depending on the team you're facing, the personnel they have the field, and what their tendancies are. If you think they might run it against your nickel? Stick Hawk out there. If you think they're more likely to run their TE up the seam, and flare a RB out in the flat? Stick Brad Jones out there.

The increased flexibility you get from having another DL on the field is that you are committing 3 DL to the rush, and have more beef on the field to deal with a potential run - that frees your ILB from as much responsibility to account for a run. You still have 2 LB's to either cover or blitz. As it is, in Capers 2-4, we almost always stay static, and rush the 2 OLB's and 2 DL straight up. I know it's coming, everyone knows it's coming.

When we have run more 3-4 as our base, we've had more success stopping the run - look at the last 2 49er games from last year... we played very little 2-4. When we've played 3-3, that alignment has produced better results as well. Most other 3-4 teams go to a 3-3 nickel as their base nickel package.

I agree that a team doesn't have to have both ILBs on the field in the nickel defense, but they prefer to if their inside guys are goo enough to play the run as well as to cover backs and TEs.

I don't agree though that having three (or even four like you suggested) DL on the field makes a defense more flexible. IMO it leads to the contrary as those guys can't drop into coverage. Different story with having more LBs on the field as they can do different things.

I'm not a huge fan of Capers but I think blaming it all on him is way too easy. I think injuries have a huge problem as if late as well, as the defensive sche had to be simplified a lot while having guys like Palmer and Mulumba play for stretches last season.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

As for Raji... I have no idea why he resigned with the team. If I were him, I'd be running away from the Green Bay Packers like they had the plague... they misused him completely from 2011 to now - you could see it in his body language, he was demoralized.

I know I'm way in the minority on Capers - to most of Packer faithful, TT, MM, and Capers can do no wrong... point to a negative fact, and you'll be attacked like a Jew walking into a **** rally.

Quite frankly I think Raji didn't receive any other offers. I wouldn't re-sign him after next season even if he has a great season as I expect him to turn into a lazy bastard once he signed a huge contract.

I do criticize Thompson, McCarthy and Capers as well. I just think blaming the defensive shortcomings on Capers only is simplifying a more complex issue. I actually thought we're discussing this matter in a proper way, didn't to attack you in any way.

 

[Pack-12]

Still, it was 2011 that Capers went to the 2-4 almost full time - call me crazy, but there is correlation there. As for Raji... I have no idea why he resigned with the team. If I were him, I'd be running away from the Green Bay Packers like they had the plague... they misused him completely from 2011 to now - you could see it in his body language, he was demoralized.

They ran that Nickle alignment 70% of the time in 2010

 

[Dylan Hoppe]

Is this 2-4 everyone is talking about the psycho nickel formation?


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[TJV]

Depends on if you're actually studying the defense, or watching casually - I've actually invested a lot of time in studying defense.

Watching vs. studying, huh? You are new here so here’s a tip. No offense meant but I just want to mention that as I’ve posted on Packers forums over the years I’ve noticed posters who had to tell the board how much they know about football turned out not to be that knowledgeable. I’m not saying you’re guilty of that, just suggesting you let your discussion of football make that argument.

Along that line I think you’re starting from behind by initially blaming all the problems on defense on Capers and his 2-4. You may be coming off that a bit but that’s certainly not how you started. In addition IMO you still don’t understand the 2-4-5 and you post as if having Perry put his hand on the ground would solve all his problems. You advocate using the 3-4 or 3-3 more yet don’t reconcile that with Perry’s problem being a DE in the 3-4. Anyway, if you would keep in mind that the 2-4 is essentially a 4-2 (as has been pointed out more than a few times to you) with more flexibility for the DEs/OLBs and criticize it from that point of view, you may get more traction.

I know I'm way in the minority on Capers - to most of Packer faithful, TT, MM, and Capers can do no wrong... point to a negative fact, and you'll be attacked like a Jew walking into a **** rally.

Again, you’re new so perhaps you don’t know but this is nonsense. Do a search for “Capers” and read through posts from the last year, or two, or three. The reason you caught so much crap is because you have placed all the blame on Capers and that is not fact-based.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Is this 2-4 everyone is talking about the psycho nickel formation?

No, it´s actually the Packers main nickel package. Two down DL, two OLB, two ILB and five DB.

 

[Dylan Hoppe]

No, it´s actually the Packers main nickel package. Two down DL, two OLB, two ILB and five DB.

Then what's the psycho?


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[Deleted member 6794]

Then what's the psycho?

In the psycho package they have only one down DL.

 

[Dylan Hoppe]

In the psycho package they have only one down DL.

I would love to see a replay of a successful sack in that formation. Sounds interesting for blitzes. How could big OLM catch all the quicker, slippery rushers?


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[Deleted member 6794]

I would love to see a replay of a successful sack in that formation.

Here you go: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d820bd462/Keys-to-the-Psycho-package

 

[easyk83]

I wouldn't mind seeing a variation of the psycho package with Perry Neal Jones Daniels Matthews Hawk and Peppers all out on the field at the same time. Have to imagine that we could create some vicious misdirection with that group.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I wouldn't mind seeing a variation of the psycho package with Perry Neal Jones Daniels Matthews Hawk and Peppers all out on the field at the same time. Have to imagine that we could create some vicious misdirection with that group.

That´s two DL in Jones and Daniels though.

 

[wist43]

Watching vs. studying, huh? You are new here so here’s a tip. No offense meant but I just want to mention that as I’ve posted on Packers forums over the years I’ve noticed posters who had to tell the board how much they know about football turned out not to be that knowledgeable. I’m not saying you’re guilty of that, just suggesting you let your discussion of football make that argument.

Along that line I think you’re starting from behind by initially blaming all the problems on defense on Capers and his 2-4. You may be coming off that a bit but that’s certainly not how you started. In addition IMO you still don’t understand the 2-4-5 and you post as if having Perry put his hand on the ground would solve all his problems. You advocate using the 3-4 or 3-3 more yet don’t reconcile that with Perry’s problem being a DE in the 3-4. Anyway, if you would keep in mind that the 2-4 is essentially a 4-2 (as has been pointed out more than a few times to you) with more flexibility for the DEs/OLBs and criticize it from that point of view, you may get more traction. Again, you’re new so perhaps you don’t know but this is nonsense. Do a search for “Capers” and read through posts from the last year, or two, or three. The reason you caught so much crap is because you have placed all the blame on Capers and that is not fact-based.

You're surely much more knowledgable than I my friend... I will make sure to defer to you in all instances

What is this '3-4' you speak of?? Isn't that where big guys stand near where the ball is??

 

[wist43]

In the psycho package they have only one down DL.

3rd and 12, last play of the 1st half in Seattle a couple of years ago... we get the stop?? They're punting from their end zone - good opportunity to get at least a FG before half time.

Rookie QB who was shaky - they were relying on the run. What does Capers do?? Comes out in the pyscho - Worthy is the only DL on the field. Lynch off RT for an easy 13 yds - take a knee, have a nice half time

 

[wist43]

They ran that Nickle alignment 70% of the time in 2010

Link??

 

[Sunshinepacker]

You're surely much more knowledgable than I my friend... I will make sure to defer to you in all instances

What is this '3-4' you speak of?? Isn't that where big guys stand near where the ball is??

Your '3-4' question has absolutely nothing to do with any of the points that ThxJackVainisi raised in the post you're responding too...

 

[easyk83]

That´s two DL in Jones and Daniels though.

Jones was used as an OLB against San Francisco and he looked pretty comfortable doing it. I think that group offers a great deal of versatility, you'd have 6 different guys who could basically function like down linemen, 5 of whom could be dropped into coverage.