Khryi Thornton Thread

[Dylan Hoppe]

Last year I would have used Pickett/Jolly on the nose and would have rotated slugs like Boyd and Wilson more in std 3-4's. Let your run stopping slugs eat up those snaps. That's the old style, run stopping, base 3-4. That Capers doesn't use much... 167/yds rushing/game allowed is okay.

Raji would have been kept fresher, and I would have returned him to an interior pass rushing role. Depending on what team we were matching up with, in a 3-3 you could have gone with Raji, Daniels, and D. Jones/Perry on the line; and Matthews, Neal, and any one of Hawk/Jones/Mulumba as the MLB. Mulumba played there some later in the season due to injury - and he showed a lot of potential. He was better in space than Perry, a more natural bender, and probably a better natural pass rusher as well. He's just inexperienced and raw.

We ran very little standard 3-4. As a result Raji was both worn down and demoralized - I'm surprised he came back. If I were him I would have walked for the minimum just to get out of Green Bay - which is what I expect Perry will do, or at least should do.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. As it is, Capers is mostly a one-trick pony with his 2-4 - yet most of you guys seem to think it's the only path to heaven. So, carry on... I'm sure you're going to get heavy doses of 2-4 next year. The improved personnel should help, so hopefully we won't have to endure the embarrassments of the past few years.

This thread is supposed to be about thornton. For gods sake, start a new thread labeled bulls**t and just make all your posts there.


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[TJV]

...the Packers didn´t have enough talent on the line to be able to get pressure that way.

That's only one of the issues wist43 has trouble refuting. He's decided the only problem the Packers had on D was using the 2-4 and he refuses to consider anything else. IMO he joins the (thankfully short) list of posters who felt the need to tell us how much they know about football because their posts showed otherwise.

 

[wist43]

This thread is supposed to be about thornton. For gods sake, start a new thread labeled bulls**t and just make all your posts there.


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I asked how he would be used... and it morphed into this.

How would you use him?? And... Peppers, Raji, D.Jones, Perry, Daniels, Guion, Neal, Boyd, Worthy??

That's 10 guys that you need to either make inactive, or use in some sort of rotation. If you're going to play 2-4 60% of the time - which most of you seem to believe is the only way to fly - how are you going to use him?? Hmmm??

Some of those guys are either going to have to be cut, or be left inactive every week - assuming everyone made it thru the preseason healthy.

 

[wist43]

Okay wist, give me the exact nickel formation you'd like to see with the personnel labeled. I'll hear out your opinion. Because MM has talked about utilizing everyone's personalized talents on defense far more this season. That's basically what you're saying right? I agree with what HE says but taking bigger bodies means dropping the smaller guys and one of those smaller guys is literally our BEST player on defense (Clay Matthews) I think everyone should be more open to hearing out your opinion because I don't think any football fan would like the idea of not utilizing their best players talents on every play.


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Besides Mr. Hoppe - you asked, I answered... you don't like the answer, so you tell me to "get a room"?? lol...

You guys are a hypocritical hoot

 

[TJV]

Well someone on this thread is a hoot, but I think it’s the guy alleging the rest of us are saying the 2-4-5 is the ONLY way to go. It obviously isn’t but it also isn’t the problem on D. And to reinforce his misunderstanding, he groups Peppers, Raji, D.Jones, Perry, Daniels, Guion, Neal, Boyd, and Worthy as competing with Thornton for playing time. Thornton of course won’t be lining up at OLB or elephant. Peppers, Perry and Neal will be. So his group of 9 is reduced to 6. Raji (we’re told for this season), Guion, and Boyd are NTs so that leaves three. To be fair, Neal has been used as an interior pass rusher and it is crowded with Thornton competing with Daniels, Jones, and Worthy. But why exaggerate?

 

[Dylan Hoppe]

Besides Mr. Hoppe - you asked, I answered... you don't like the answer, so you tell me to "get a room"?? lol...

You guys are a hypocritical hoot

I was trying to wrap things up... Thought that was pretty obvious Mr. Wist


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[Einstein McFly]

For all of you folks who always claim oh this guy won't fit because he's to small and he's not a 3-4 this that blah blah blah. Explain this pick....while your at it explain why Pittsburgh a 3-4 team took Shazier who was trashed by many on this board because he was to "small" and wouldn't fit.

I wish we'd have had a shot at him. Shazier could be the best player of this draft IF he doesn't have to deal with trying to get off blocks all the time. Shazier is too small to be a 3-4 backer if he doesn't have good big guys up front that allow him to stretch his legs. Pittsburgh obviously thinks they have those guys or will get them in FA or next year's draft. If they don't, expect him to get exploited in the run game.

 

[Einstein McFly]

No matter if he's getting the players he wants or not - he's certainly not playing the highly drafted players he's been given to good effect.

TT has invested a lot in the DL, and he's invested next to nothing in LB's. Yet, Capers devises gameplans that feature 2 of the most pedestrian players available to him?? Daniels, D. Jones, Perry, et al, are standing on the sideline, while Hawk and Brad Jones never come off the field??

There's no rationale that can make sense of that - even if he were only doing it in passing situations; but as has been painfully obvious, he plays the 2-4 in run/pass situations as well. He thinks nothing of throwing it out there on 1st and 10, 2nd and 6, and 3rd and 3 all the time!!!

Against Chicago last year, in the final game?? Capers had the 2-4 on the field for both of Forte's TD runs!!! One from 5 yds out, and the other one from just 1 yd out!!! A goal line defense with just defensive linemen on the field?? What's wrong with that picture?? Of course Forte just walked in.

Seriously, there can be no excuse for what Capers has been doing with the personnel. If it continues - which I fully expect it will, Thorton is a completely wasted pick... and if anyone does expect Thorton to play - again, who ya gonna sit??

The problem isn't personnel, the problem is Capers. I would argue that B. Jones and AJ Hawk both need to be replaced - but of course TT loves those guys, and Capers plays them 24/7... that being the case - how does anyone expect anything will change with the defense??

That's pretty easy to say after the fact. When a coordinator puts in a package slated to stop the pass and gets run on, you call it a bad call but if they'd been in their 3-4 base and had given up an easy pass you could say the same thing. The guys on the other side are pros too, so Forte getting a TD is going to happen sometimes no matter who the coordinator is. My beef last year was when we had our big guys out there and we knew they were going to run and we couldn't stop it. It's hard to see how that's Capers' fault unless it's an issue of him not being able to play hard. Then again, we looked damned good against the run in the first five games, so who knows?

Also, I feel like you're missing the point with the alignments and personnel. It's not that he's choosing to put Hawk and Jones out there because he thinks they're better players than Worthy or Datone Jones or whatever, it's that when the offense puts more small and quick guys out there you need to bring in more small and quick guys to defend it. Hawk and Jones are better able to cover than a dlineman, of course. If they had Geno Atkins and JJ Watt to go with Daniels, I bet we'd see more base 3-4 on passing downs but unless you have guys on the dline that can really, really rush the passer you need to follow the offense and bring in smaller guys.

 

[Einstein McFly]

Well someone on this thread is a hoot, but I think it’s the guy alleging the rest of us are saying the 2-4-5 is the ONLY way to go. It obviously isn’t but it also isn’t the problem on D. And to reinforce his misunderstanding, he groups Peppers, Raji, D.Jones, Perry, Daniels, Guion, Neal, Boyd, and Worthy as competing with Thornton for playing time. Thornton of course won’t be lining up at OLB or elephant. Peppers, Perry and Neal will be. So his group of 9 is reduced to 6. Raji (we’re told for this season), Guion, and Boyd are NTs so that leaves three. To be fair, Neal has been used as an interior pass rusher and it is crowded with Thornton competing with Daniels, Jones, and Worthy. But why exaggerate?

Do we really think that Guion and Boyd and Worthy and Thornton are all going to dress? Raji, Jones and Daniels of course, but since Perry and Neal and Peppers could all play with a hand down in nickel we may not carry so many on the roster much less on gameday. I think Worthy and Guion are going to be battling for their roster spots, and maybe Boyd too (though he showed a lot at the end of last year). I think whichever one shows that they can really play the nose is going to have the leg up.

 

[TJV]

Do we really think that Guion and Boyd and Worthy and Thornton are all going to dress? Raji, Jones and Daniels of course, but since Perry and Neal and Peppers could all play with a hand down in nickel we may not carry so many on the roster much less on gameday. I think Worthy and Guion are going to be battling for their roster spots, and maybe Boyd too (though he showed a lot at the end of last year). I think whichever one shows that they can really play the nose is going to have the leg up.

That wasn't the purpose of my post - I was was just pointing out the confusion of all the players that poster thinks Thornton is competing with, which IMO goes to his misunderstanding of what is going on, on defense. The point you raise is first who makes the final 53 and then who dresses on game day. I agree about Worthy having to earn his spot. He may have depended too much on his quickness in college and I didn't think he showed much even before he got injured. I hope and expect he's gotten stronger. Pickett is gone and it looks like Jolly will be too, so who backs up Raji at NT will be interesting.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Do we really think that Guion and Boyd and Worthy and Thornton are all going to dress? Raji, Jones and Daniels of course, but since Perry and Neal and Peppers could all play with a hand down in nickel we may not carry so many on the roster much less on gameday. I think Worthy and Guion are going to be battling for their roster spots, and maybe Boyd too (though he showed a lot at the end of last year). I think whichever one shows that they can really play the nose is going to have the leg up.

I think it´s possible the Packers only keep six DL, with Boyd and Guion battling for the final spot. I´m kind of intrigued by Mike Pennel, the undrafted NT out of Colorado-State Pueblo, maybe he can jump ahead of both of them on the depth chart.

 

[rodell330]

I wish we'd have had a shot at him. Shazier could be the best player of this draft IF he doesn't have to deal with trying to get off blocks all the time. Shazier is too small to be a 3-4 backer if he doesn't have good big guys up front that allow him to stretch his legs. Pittsburgh obviously thinks they have those guys or will get them in FA or next year's draft. If they don't, expect him to get exploited in the run game.

Or like I've been saying he can bulk up and be just fine! Who cares about how small he WAS? Obviously Pitt feels some way about him. Guarantee he has a bigger impact than any of our middle backers who arnt to "small"

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Or like I've been saying he can bulk up and be just fine! Who cares about how small he WAS? Obviously Pitt feels some way about him. Guarantee he has a bigger impact than any of our middle backers who arnt to "small"

Even if Shazier has some impact with the Steelers he wouldn't have been a great fit for the Packers.

 

[rodell330]

Even if Shazier has some impact with the Steelers he wouldn't have been a great fit for the Packers.

Why? And don't say because he's to small...give me something else.

 

[Dylan Hoppe]

Why? And don't say because he's to small...give me something else.

No experience or evidence he could play 3-4 ILB. Another 1st round choice knowing there would be a position change.


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[Deleted member 6794]

Why? And don't say because he's to small...give me something else.

Once again, he´s not able to come off of blocks by OL at the second level. That isn´t a problem on a team having DL capable of eating up blockers, the Packers don´t have those guys though.

 

[rodell330]

Once again, he´s not able to come off of blocks by OL at the second level. That isn´t a problem on a team having DL capable of eating up blockers, the Packers don´t have those guys though.

Maybe. But Packers need guys who can get off blocks...I'm so over seeing fat guys pasted to linemen.

 

[Einstein McFly]

Or like I've been saying he can bulk up and be just fine! Who cares about how small he WAS? Obviously Pitt feels some way about him. Guarantee he has a bigger impact than any of our middle backers who arnt to "small"

Of course, it's not that easy. You can't just tell a guy with skinny legs to "bulk up" and take on blocks. If it were that easy he'd have done it at OSU. Shazier is what he is. He's a super fast, explosive guy. Like a huge safety playing linebacker. Putting on extra weight won't make him something that he's not.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

The moment he admitted his favorite team growing up was the Packers, he became a firm favorite of mine. It`s more than just a job to him .