Khryi Thornton Thread

[Deleted member 6794]

Jones was used as an OLB against San Francisco and he looked pretty comfortable doing it. I think that group offers a great deal of versatility, you'd have 6 different guys who could basically function like down linemen, 5 of whom could be dropped into coverage.

You would still have five DBs on the field in the psycho package though.

 

[easyk83]

You would still have five DBs on the field in the psycho package though.

I rather forgot that detail. I suppose you could line up Matthews like an in the box safety, he's been effective playing there in limited snaps in the past. Otherwise perhaps a new package but with 5 "LB"s and one down lineman.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I rather forgot that detail. I suppose you could line up Matthews like an in the box safety, he's been effective playing there in limited snaps in the past. Otherwise perhaps a new package but with 5 "LB"s and one down lineman.

The psycho is a package with one down lineman, five linebackers and five defensive backs.

 

[wist43]

Your '3-4' question has absolutely nothing to do with any of the points that ThxJackVainisi raised in the post you're responding too...

What's the point in responding... Jack tuned me out, and hit me with the 'you're the new guy, I'm the wise sage' gambit...

I'll make my arguments and try to back them up... you do the same, and hopefully we can have a constructive conversation - Jack wants to insult and condescend. No point talking to someone like that... he can have his little patch of turf.

I haven't insulted anyone here... I just have an unpopular POV, and some people can't help but make it personal. I don't need to play that game.

 

[HardRightEdge]

In the psycho package they have only one down DL.

Sometimes none...with everybody on the like hopping around like jumping beans and then mis-timing the snap.

It was interesting and somewhat effective when there wasn't much tape of it...once it was shown enough it started to suck. Gimmicks are fine but they have a shelf life.

 

[easyk83]

The psycho is a package with one down lineman, five linebackers and five defensive backs.

Brain fart.

 

[TJV]

What's the point in responding... Jack tuned me out, and hit me with the 'you're the new guy, I'm the wise sage' gambit...

I'll make my arguments and try to back them up... you do the same, and hopefully we can have a constructive conversation - Jack wants to insult and condescend. No point talking to someone like that... he can have his little patch of turf.

I haven't insulted anyone here... I just have an unpopular POV, and some people can't help but make it personal. I don't need to play that game.

Over-react much? Or do you just have problems with reading comprehension? Nowhere in my post did I say I was wise or full of football knowledge (in fact I posted, “… my experience and yours watching a ton of Packers defense doesn’t make much difference”.) I was actually trying to clue you in, in a non-confrontational way: “No offense meant… I’m not saying you’re guilty of that, just suggesting…”

You made it personal by inferring your opinion is more informed because you have “actually invested a lot of time studying defense”. After reading your posts putting 100% of the blame on Capers and not being able to understand the basics of the 2-4-5 your posts don’t reveal the benefits of any studying.

 

[Pack-12]

Link??

http://scottfowlerobs.blogspot.com/2011/09/carolina-panthers-by-numbers-after-week.html

"
68.6 -- I love this number from Sports Illustrated. Green Bay, while officially a 3-4 defense, actually played a 2-4-5 (2 defensive linemen, 4 linebackers and 5 defensive backs) on 68.6 percent of its snaps last season. The Panthers are going to need to run the ball effectively on the Packers when Dom Capers lines 'em up like that."

Now you got a link that going heavy nickle started in 2011 because I believe you are the one that first made the claim, not me.

 

[wist43]

http://scottfowlerobs.blogspot.com/2011/09/carolina-panthers-by-numbers-after-week.html

"
68.6 -- I love this number from Sports Illustrated. Green Bay, while officially a 3-4 defense, actually played a 2-4-5 (2 defensive linemen, 4 linebackers and 5 defensive backs) on 68.6 percent of its snaps last season. The Panthers are going to need to run the ball effectively on the Packers when Dom Capers lines 'em up like that."

Now you got a link that going heavy nickle started in 2011 because I believe you are the one that first made the claim, not me.

I know they started running it more in 2010 - but I'd dispute that number... even though I can't go back and look at the games. I was already complaining about Capers soft fronts back then, but better personnel made it work better than the disasters he's put together the last 3 years.

Still, that is a ridiculous number, just as the 62% number is. As I said, when did play it, we got away with it better for a while b/c we had a lot of very, very good players outside of the front, i.e. we still had Woodson, Collins, and Bishop; and in the front, we still had Jenkins.

The personnel we have today simply screams putting DL on the field in Lieu of LB's... yet we continue to slog away game after game, getting completely humiliated in many instances. Capers has put some disasterous messes out there on the field in the past few years.

 

[easyk83]

From JS article on rookies, Khyri Thornton:


Below the radar, Thornton finished with 39 tackles (6 1/2 for loss) with a half-sack in 2013. He believes the reason he's here is that the motor never ran dry. Burst is always in demand on the D-line. For Thornton, it wasn't too difficult mentally to suck it up last fall.

As a kid, Thornton grew up in a full house. He's been holding down jobs since he was 14 years old to help pay bills. So on the field, he never slowed down.

"Some people have it, some people don't," Thornton said. "I feel like I've had adversity all my life, so that was just another steppingstone in my life to keep playing hard.

"A lot of people don't get the opportunity I've got, so I just looked at it that way. I went out there every day — practice every day, game every day and played from the first quarter to the end of the fourth quarter."

At Southern Miss, former Packers quarterback Brett Favre often stopped by to give speeches to his alma mater. Thornton estimates there are 15 Favre-related posters at the facility. Favre, in fact, was a major reason Thornton chose Southern Miss after failing to qualify at Florida State and South Florida.

Thornton grew up a Packers fan. He did watch the team last season. And this is a run defense that ranked as high as No. 3 in the NFL before eroding down the stretch. LeSean McCoy (25 carries, 155 yards), Matt Forte (46-235), Adrian Peterson/Toby Gerhart (40-237), Reggie Bush/Joique Bell (39-211), DeMarco Murray (18-134) and Le'Veon Bell (26-124) all ran wild.

...I always try to stay on this high level where you're blessed to be here, nothing's given to you."


*****************
I have to say I like this young man's attitude.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I know they started running it more in 2010 - but I'd dispute that number... even though I can't go back and look at the games. I was already complaining about Capers soft fronts back then, but better personnel made it work better than the disasters he's put together the last 3 years.

Still, that is a ridiculous number, just as the 62% number is. As I said, when did play it, we got away with it better for a while b/c we had a lot of very, very good players outside of the front, i.e. we still had Woodson, Collins, and Bishop; and in the front, we still had Jenkins.

The personnel we have today simply screams putting DL on the field in Lieu of LB's... yet we continue to slog away game after game, getting completely humiliated in many instances. Capers has put some disasterous messes out there on the field in the past few years.

What dlineman outside of Daniels actually contributes to the pass defense? You also continue to ignore the fact that having Perry and Matthews playing OLB means that our 2-4-5 defense is really a 4-2-5 defense with the defensive ends standing up.

I still haven't seen you respond to that simple fact, our OLBs are defensive ends that start the play standing up. Would you feel better about the defense if Perry and Matthews played out of three-point stances?

 

[Dylan Hoppe]

What dlineman outside of Daniels actually contributes to the pass defense? You also continue to ignore the fact that having Perry and Matthews playing OLB means that our 2-4-5 defense is really a 4-2-5 defense with the defensive ends standing up.

I still haven't seen you respond to that simple fact, our OLBs are defensive ends that start the play standing up. Would you feel better about the defense if Perry and Matthews played out of three-point stances?

That would destroy our pass defense. They're not rushing on every down? Why line up with your hand in the dirt if you have to cover? It would completely give away the fact that both OLBs were rushing and we would be in a 5-2 with 5 rushers and 2 ILBs that are in almost no situation going to rush the passer. Way too obvious that way. Have to disguise your defense. Although I do understand you're not suggesting they line up that way, it wouldn't make sense if this guy your arguing with likes the idea.


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[Sunshinepacker]

That would destroy our pass defense. They're not rushing on every down? Why line up with your hand in the dirt if you have to cover? It would completely give away the fact that both OLBs were rushing and we would be in a 5-2 with 5 rushers and 2 ILBs that are in almost no situation going to rush the passer. Way too obvious that way. Have to disguise your defense. Although I do understand you're not suggesting they line up that way, it wouldn't make sense if this guy your arguing with likes the idea.


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Our OLBs rush the passer over eighty percent of their snaps, how much coverage are they really doing?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

What dlineman outside of Daniels actually contributes to the pass defense? You also continue to ignore the fact that having Perry and Matthews playing OLB means that our 2-4-5 defense is really a 4-2-5 defense with the defensive ends standing up.

I still haven't seen you respond to that simple fact, our OLBs are defensive ends that start the play standing up. Would you feel better about the defense if Perry and Matthews played out of three-point stances?

I think wist is intrigued by the idea of having more big bodies up front in the nickel defense as he thinks it results in an improved run defense. He continues to ignore though that the pass rush would be one-dimensional as the team would rush the passer with the same guys on every single snap. In addition this would result in Matthews either not being on the field and dropping into coverage, which doesn´t make sense either.

 

[wist43]

What dlineman outside of Daniels actually contributes to the pass defense? You also continue to ignore the fact that having Perry and Matthews playing OLB means that our 2-4-5 defense is really a 4-2-5 defense with the defensive ends standing up.

I still haven't seen you respond to that simple fact, our OLBs are defensive ends that start the play standing up. Would you feel better about the defense if Perry and Matthews played out of three-point stances?

Pass rush IS pass defense... no pass rush, and even an average NFL QB is going to pick you apart.

Our best pass rushers are defensive linemen - most of high draft pick talent are pass rushing defensive linemen. What sense does it make to have them standing on the sideline in passing situations - and at the same time having 2 of the most pedestrian defenders we have, B. Jones and Hawk, on the field 24/7??

You guys act like the 2-4 is the ONLY option for playing nickel defense - when the fact is, we play it more than any other team - BY FAR!!!! No other team is even close in the amount of 2-4 they run.

And in case you haven't noticed, the results have been disasterous.

 

[wist43]

I think wist is intrigued by the idea of having more big bodies up front in the nickel defense as he thinks it results in an improved run defense. He continues to ignore though that the pass rush would be one-dimensional as the team would rush the passer with the same guys on every single snap. In addition this would result in Matthews either not being on the field and dropping into coverage, which doesn´t make sense either.

If we're in an either/or situation, and the offense throws 3 wides out there... I'm okay with jumping to a nickel; but yes, if that is the case then we need to have enough beef up front to deal with that. In Capers "Jumbo 2-4" he had Raji and Pickett at DT - if it's a pass, you're going to get exactly zero pass rush out of Pickett, and Raji had been worn down and demoralized to the point where he wasn't any use as a pass rusher either.

So in Capers "Jumbo 2-4" we essentially had a 2 man pass rush if it were a pass.

And against the run in that situation, we usually only had 6 guys in the box - unless we walked a safety up, 2 of whom (B. Jones and Hawk)... defeat the 2 "jumbos" inside, and the offense was likely have a lot of running room.

As for pass rush - MY GOD!!! The 2-4 is as static as it comes, lol... we know who is rushing on every stinking snap. And while a front of Matthews, Daniels, D. Jones, and Neal is a combo of good pass rushers, there is rarely any threat of inside blitz or zone blitz. Who are you going to blitz?? Hawk or B. Jones?? Might as well send my sister on the blitz.

The 3-3 offers infinitely more possibilities in terms of personnel and blitz combinations. Creating mismatches and confusion for the offensive line is exactly one of the reasons we should go to a 3-3 much more often, and get away from the 2-4.

You guys are trying to defend an alignment that Green Bay runs more than any other team in the league - to dismal/disasterous results; yet you seem to think there is no alternative?? I find that amazing.

 

[TJV]

You guys are trying to defend an alignment that Green Bay runs more than any other team in the league - to dismal/disasterous results; yet you seem to think there is no alternative?? I find that amazing.

What's amazing is how you've had to adjust your opinion on this issue. You started with, 'it's 100% Capers fault'. It's amazing how you can't reconcile your opinion with the extensive use of the 2-4-5 during the 2010 season. It's amazing how it's obvious there are problems on defense that need to be corrected, but that you are fixated on something you don't understand and that is not the problem.

The Packers will be better on defense and they probably won't line up in the 2-4-5 as often because that probably doesn't translate to using Peppers in the elephant position. But the main reason they'll be better is because Capers will have better players to use.

 

[Dylan Hoppe]

Pass rush IS pass defense... no pass rush, and even an average NFL QB is going to pick you apart.

Our best pass rushers are defensive linemen - most of high draft pick talent are pass rushing defensive linemen. What sense does it make to have them standing on the sideline in passing situations - and at the same time having 2 of the most pedestrian defenders we have, B. Jones and Hawk, on the field 24/7??

You guys act like the 2-4 is the ONLY option for playing nickel defense - when the fact is, we play it more than any other team - BY FAR!!!! No other team is even close in the amount of 2-4 they run.

And in case you haven't noticed, the results have been disasterous.

Okay wist, give me the exact nickel formation you'd like to see with the personnel labeled. I'll hear out your opinion. Because MM has talked about utilizing everyone's personalized talents on defense far more this season. That's basically what you're saying right? I agree with what HE says but taking bigger bodies means dropping the smaller guys and one of those smaller guys is literally our BEST player on defense (Clay Matthews) I think everyone should be more open to hearing out your opinion because I don't think any football fan would like the idea of not utilizing their best players talents on every play.


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[wist43]

Okay wist, give me the exact nickel formation you'd like to see with the personnel labeled. I'll hear out your opinion. Because MM has talked about utilizing everyone's personalized talents on defense far more this season. That's basically what you're saying right? I agree with what HE says but taking bigger bodies means dropping the smaller guys and one of those smaller guys is literally our BEST player on defense (Clay Matthews) I think everyone should be more open to hearing out your opinion because I don't think any football fan would like the idea of not utilizing their best players talents on every play.


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You can run all kinds of combinations - depending on who your matching up with.

If you were matching up with a run oriented team that threw 3 WR's out there, you could line up with Peppers, Raji/Boyd/Thorton/Worthy, and D.Jones/Perry on the line - with Matthews, Neal, and Hawk at LB.

If you were matching up with a pass oriented team, you could line up with Peppers, Daniels, D.Jones/Perry on the line; and Matthews, Neal/Bradford, and Brad Jones at LB.

If you wanted to go to a 4-2, you could line up with Peppers, Daniels, D.Jones, and Perry on the line; and Matthews and any one of Neal, Hawk, Brad Jones, Bradford at LB.

In the 3-3's you're replacing either Brad Jones or Hawk for one of the more talented defensive linemen; in the 4-2 you're replacing either one, or both, for more talented defensive linemen.

Any way you slice it, it's a more effective use of the talent we have than what Capers has been doing the last couple of years.

 

[wist43]

Jack, you can save whatever hot wind you may be blowing - I have you on ignore. Might I suggest you simply place my comments on ignore as well??

You're little old to be playing the childish negative rep game aren't you??

 

[TJV]

IMO the "old" rating is for comments that are brought up over and over and over again. And that is the definition of your posting. For example what percentage of your posts include your obsessive misunderstanding of the 2-4-5?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Our best pass rushers are defensive linemen.

I would argue that Clay Matthews is by far our best pass rusher.

And in case you haven't noticed, the results have been disasterous.

The results haven´t been better with three DL on the field because the defense hasn´t had enough talent since 2010.

As for pass rush - MY GOD!!! The 2-4 is as static as it comes, lol... we know who is rushing on every stinking snap. And while a front of Matthews, Daniels, D. Jones, and Neal is a combo of good pass rushers, there is rarely any threat of inside blitz or zone blitz. Who are you going to blitz?? Hawk or B. Jones?? Might as well send my sister on the blitz.

The 3-3 offers infinitely more possibilities in terms of personnel and blitz combinations. Creating mismatches and confusion for the offensive line is exactly one of the reasons we should go to a 3-3 much more often, and get away from the 2-4.

Please let me know how having three or even four defensive lineman in a nickel scheme would result in more personnel combinations to create pass rush. I´ll answer it for you immediately: It´s not possible as you can´t drop a DL into coverage. Teams that constantly line up with four DL in the nickel can create constant pressure with those guys only. The Packers haven´t had the talent over the last few years to do that.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

You can run all kinds of combinations - depending on who your matching up with.

If you were matching up with a run oriented team that threw 3 WR's out there, you could line up with Peppers, Raji/Boyd/Thorton/Worthy, and D.Jones/Perry on the line - with Matthews, Neal, and Hawk at LB.

If you were matching up with a pass oriented team, you could line up with Peppers, Daniels, D.Jones/Perry on the line; and Matthews, Neal/Bradford, and Brad Jones at LB.

If you wanted to go to a 4-2, you could line up with Peppers, Daniels, D.Jones, and Perry on the line; and Matthews and any one of Neal, Hawk, Brad Jones, Bradford at LB.

In the 3-3's you're replacing either Brad Jones or Hawk for one of the more talented defensive linemen; in the 4-2 you're replacing either one, or both, for more talented defensive linemen.

Any way you slice it, it's a more effective use of the talent we have than what Capers has been doing the last couple of years.

So, out of your supposed nickel dline, last year Peppers and Thorton weren't on the team and Worthy missed most of the year while Jones was a rookie and Perry missed half season. You're right, that's EXACTLY the lineup they should have used last year.

You complain that capers uses too much 2-4 yet the one constant in your alternative is Peppers, WHO WAS A BEAR LAST YEAR!

 

[wist43]

So, out of your supposed nickel dline, last year Peppers and Thorton weren't on the team and Worthy missed most of the year while Jones was a rookie and Perry missed half season. You're right, that's EXACTLY the lineup they should have used last year.

You complain that capers uses too much 2-4 yet the one constant in your alternative is Peppers, WHO WAS A BEAR LAST YEAR!

Last year I would have used Pickett/Jolly on the nose and would have rotated slugs like Boyd and Wilson more in std 3-4's. Let your run stopping slugs eat up those snaps. That's the old style, run stopping, base 3-4. That Capers doesn't use much... 167/yds rushing/game allowed is okay.

Raji would have been kept fresher, and I would have returned him to an interior pass rushing role. Depending on what team we were matching up with, in a 3-3 you could have gone with Raji, Daniels, and D. Jones/Perry on the line; and Matthews, Neal, and any one of Hawk/Jones/Mulumba as the MLB. Mulumba played there some later in the season due to injury - and he showed a lot of potential. He was better in space than Perry, a more natural bender, and probably a better natural pass rusher as well. He's just inexperienced and raw.

We ran very little standard 3-4. As a result Raji was both worn down and demoralized - I'm surprised he came back. If I were him I would have walked for the minimum just to get out of Green Bay - which is what I expect Perry will do, or at least should do.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. As it is, Capers is mostly a one-trick pony with his 2-4 - yet most of you guys seem to think it's the only path to heaven. So, carry on... I'm sure you're going to get heavy doses of 2-4 next year. The improved personnel should help, so hopefully we won't have to endure the embarrassments of the past few years.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Raji would have been kept fresher, and I would have returned him to an interior pass rushing role. Depending on what team we were matching up with, in a 3-3 you could have gone with Raji, Daniels, and D. Jones/Perry on the line; and Matthews, Neal, and any one of Hawk/Jones/Mulumba as the MLB. Mulumba played there some later in the season due to injury - and he showed a lot of potential. He was better in space than Perry, a more natural bender, and probably a better natural pass rusher as well. He's just inexperienced and raw.

Lining up that way Matthews would have to drop into coverage constantly if the opponent lines up with 3 WR, 1 TE and 1 RB and you can´t come up with a lot of different combinations of pass rushers. Other teams with dominant pass rushing DL are able to do that, the Packers didn´t have enough talent on the line to be able to get pressure that way.

We ran very little standard 3-4. As a result Raji was both worn down and demoralized - I'm surprised he came back. If I were him I would have walked for the minimum just to get out of Green Bay - which is what I expect Perry will do, or at least should do.

I don´t think Raji had a lot of offers from other teams.