Is it time?

[gopkrs]

I thought Blake was a decent player. Way too much is expected of the players who were put in the same position as his. We're talking Barnett, then Hawk. They lead the team in tackles, plug gaps along the entire line, and make tackles on the outside, then get called out by fans because they aren't fast enough to cover a WR who goes over the middle, after they've sorted out all the previous possibilities of coverage they need to consider.

I call them out because even though they get a lot of tackles; they did not cover the run well. Barnett should not have been on the inside. He was drafted for his speed on the outside and that is where he should have stayed. I've never seen anyone misdiagnose holes more than him and Martinez pretty much just waited for the runner to come to him. Now we have a real inside linebacker. I'm hoping he is allowed to hit the running holes.

 

[Voyageur]

I call them out because even though they get a lot of tackles; they did not cover the run well. Barnett should not have been on the inside. He was drafted for his speed on the outside and that is where he should have stayed. I've never seen anyone misdiagnose holes more than him and Martinez pretty much just waited for the runner to come to him. Now we have a real inside linebacker. I'm hoping he is allowed to hit the running holes.

No matter who they plug into that particular position, you're going to see the same results. They have to process the play as it's unfolding, and react only after they're certain they've got it right. They don't make tackles for losses, their job is to stop the run with as little gain as possible.

Now, while you're plugging those gaps at the line, the entire middle is wide open for short passes that he also has the responsibility for controlling a particular zone. Each play, his mental processing of what appears to be happening takes time. These guys have done an admirable job. Then, there's also the problem that a run through any of the other gaps goes to the defensive backs before being stopped. Lots of things going on out there.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Blake was a player that used his head.

I heard that during training camp his rookie year any down time, he was studying the play book.

Yeah he’s made a lotta money trading these cards.

 

[Heyjoe4]

No matter who they plug into that particular position, you're going to see the same results. They have to process the play as it's unfolding, and react only after they're certain they've got it right. They don't make tackles for losses, their job is to stop the run with as little gain as possible.

Now, while you're plugging those gaps at the line, the entire middle is wide open for short passes that he also has the responsibility for controlling a particular zone. Each play, his mental processing of what appears to be happening takes time. These guys have done an admirable job. Then, there's also the problem that a run through any of the other gaps goes to the defensive backs before being stopped. Lots of things going on out there.

MLB is a tough position. The guys who make All Pro have otherworldly instincts and talent that can’t be coached.

 

[OldSchool101]

I call them out because even though they get a lot of tackles; they did not cover the run well. Barnett should not have been on the inside. He was drafted for his speed on the outside and that is where he should have stayed. I've never seen anyone misdiagnose holes more than him and Martinez pretty much just waited for the runner to come to him. Now we have a real inside linebacker. I'm hoping he is allowed to hit the running holes.

While that is a theme I saw. It doesn’t fit with the production. I’m going to use one of the best LB to play the Game. Bobby Wagner. Here are Bobby’s #s in 4 straight All-Pro seasons (64 contests) that overlap Blake Martinez (63 contests)
2017-2020


Blake Martinez
Pass Defensed yearly avg___4.5
QB Hits yearly avg________ 4.25
INT ____________________0.75 (3)
Sacks __________________3.0 (12.0)
Tackles for Loss___________8.5
FF _____________________1.0 (4)
Solo Tackles______________92.5
Combined Tackles__________148.5

Bobby Wagner

Pass Defensed yearly avg___7.75
QB Hits yearly avg________ 9.0
INT ____________________1.0 (4)
Sacks __________________2.125 (8.5)
Tackles for Loss___________9.0
FF _____________________0.75 (3)
Solo Tackles______________87.0
Combined Tackles__________142.0

Quay Walker

Pass Defensed yearly avg___7.0
QB Hits yearly avg________ 4.0
INT ____________________ 0
Sacks __________________ 1.5
Tackles for Loss___________5.0
FF _____________________3.0
Solo Tackles______________75.0
Combined Tackles__________121


If you told a GM this would be his production numbers in comparison to a consecutive 4 seasons of 1st Team All Pro across the exact same period? They’d salivate in the draft and there’s 0% chance Martinez makes Day3 in a draft redo. Regardless of your opinion, which I respect, Martinez was an absolute steal in late Round 4 (#138 overall). It wasn’t just scheme either, he went to NY and repeated that thumping.

 

[Mondio]

Regardless of stats, Bobby Wagner was much more of a linebacker than Martinez and the only thing holding Quay back is mental control. But I can see his physicality is already way ahead of blake's ceiling and he's just starting.
He was a fine pick in the 4th but the stats don't tell the story. They're kind of an anomaly in his case if you ask me. Because the play on the field didn't match the stats in the books IMO. I"ve seen worse, but I've also seen a lot better too. Kind of the definition of average out there to me when watching. mIssed as many plays as he made many games. The good or greats don't do that.

 

[OldSchool101]

Regardless of stats, Bobby Wagner was much more of a linebacker than Martinez and the only thing holding Quay back is mental control. But I can see his physicality is already way ahead of blake's ceiling and he's just starting.
He was a fine pick in the 4th but the stats don't tell the story. They're kind of an anomaly in his case if you ask me. Because the play on the field didn't match the stats in the books IMO. I"ve seen worse, but I've also seen a lot better too. Kind of the definition of average out there to me when watching. mIssed as many plays as he made many games. The good or greats don't do that.

I never said Blake was as good as Bobby Wagner. Conversely, I used who I believe is one of the best players on the field across all 50+ ILB’s across that same timeframe. I guess you could say Wagner would be the “goal of A+ excellence”. I can’t help Blake put up numbers close to Bobby that part is just something you’ll have to accept and dissect. It’s still conjecture though saying Blake misses a bunch of plays imo. Although I can definitely see why you’d try to make a distinction between those 2 players, they are relatively close on a stats sheet. I agree that there were some plays mingled in Blake’s career that he could’ve distinguished himself more, but that’s really most players.

Now let’s handle this objection that he “missed plays”. Every player misses plays so that’s not quantifiable. I can’t judge a player by someone’s opinion that they missed plays. I certainly wouldn’t hand out a 3year X $30.75mil contract to a player I thought was a “play misser” (I made up that word)

This whole thing of Blake being a poor player who backpedaled and didn’t get involved is overblown and embellished. If he had an ounce more productivity (especially TFL, Sacks or Solo’s etc) he’d likely be a 1st or 2nd Team All Pro.

 

[Voyageur]

Totally missed in the conversation is the fact that Wagner was a middle linebacker in a 4-3 scheme, where four linemen absorb the blockers, so he can make the plays, often without even having a blocker on him. In the case of the Packer players like Blake, etc, they played in a 3-4, where they end up being essentially the 4th guy in the front scheme, but flexible. Comparing stats is okay, when they play the same position. Essentially that's not the case. Their assignments are so totally different.

Yet, think about it. The position Blake played is expected to be strong enough to play the run, between the tackles, cover against sweeps, in support of the outside rush, and drop into coverage to protect the middle against those short throws. Their assignment is multi-faceted, and if you're big enough to handle those inside tackles, you're probably not fast enough to cover speedy backs in the open field, or if you're fast, you're not big. No matter what, it's a balance, and those guys played it fairly well.

 

[Mondio]

I never said Blake was as good as Bobby Wagner. Conversely, I used who I believe is one of the best players on the field across all 50+ ILB’s across that same timeframe. I guess you could say Wagner would be the “goal of A+ excellence”. I can’t help Blake put up numbers close to Bobby that’s just something you’ll have to accept and try to continually dismiss. It’s still conjecture though saying Blake Missed a bunch of plays. Although I can definitely see why you’d try to distinguish those 2 players, they are close on a stats sheet. so I agree

Now let’s handle this objection that he “missed plays”. Every player misses plays so that’s not quantifiable. I can’t judge a player by someone’s opinion that they missed plays and nothing personal but I certainly wouldn’t hand out a 3year X $30.75mil contract to a player I thought was a “play misser”.

This whole thing of Blake being a poor player who backpedaled and didn’t get involved is way overblown and severely embellished. If had an ounce more productivity he’d be a 1st or 2nd Team All Pro.

I only used both of them because they were the stats you put forth. Martinez was a good 4th round pick. I don't think he ever approached all pro levels, regardless of his stats.

 

[gopkrs]

Yeah, don't say Martinez is as good as Wagner. Just point out stats that seem to say that. The truth is it matters nothing what the stats say. All you really have to do is actually watch games. Martinez was never even close to Wagner. I'm happy he's gone and I'm looking forward to what Q can do. The other one...Nick Barnett also had good stats. But he should have stayed on the outside and when he got hurt and Bishop took over...that's when the D started clicking and we went to the Super Bowl. And that was one big reason why.

 

[Voyageur]

I never said Blake was as good as Bobby Wagner. Conversely, I used who I believe is one of the best players on the field across all 50+ ILB’s across that same timeframe. I guess you could say Wagner would be the “goal of A+ excellence”. I can’t help Blake put up numbers close to Bobby that’s just something you’ll have to accept and try to continually dismiss. It’s still conjecture though saying Blake Missed a bunch of plays. Although I can definitely see why you’d try to distinguish those 2 players, they are close on a stats sheet. so I agree

Now let’s handle this objection that he “missed plays”. Every player misses plays so that’s not quantifiable. I can’t judge a player by someone’s opinion that they missed plays and nothing personal but I certainly wouldn’t hand out a 3year X $30.75mil contract to a player I thought was a “play misser”.

This whole thing of Blake being a poor player who backpedaled and didn’t get involved is way overblown and severely embellished. If had an ounce more productivity he’d be a 1st or 2nd Team All Pro.

The fact that Blake's position requirements were tougher than that of Wagner, you could almost make a case for Blake being nearly as good. Perceptions based on stats can be so deceiving. That's why I shy away from comparing players from different eras.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The fact that Blake's position requirements were tougher than that of Wagner, you could almost make a case for Blake being nearly as good. Perceptions based on stats can be so deceiving. That's why I shy away from comparing players from different eras.

I also recall that Wagner was playing on a much better defense than Blake was. Having better players around you, can make you look better.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Yeah, don't say Martinez is as good as Wagner. Just point out stats that seem to say that. The truth is it matters nothing what the stats say. All you really have to do is actually watch games. Martinez was never even close to Wagner. I'm happy he's gone and I'm looking forward to what Q can do. The other one...Nick Barnett also had good stats. But he should have stayed on the outside and when he got hurt and Bishop took over...that's when the D started clicking and we went to the Super Bowl. And that was one big reason why.

While I agree that a lot of factors make it hard to compare ILBs from different teams, Martinez was an above average ILB, a little better than "just a guy". He made a lot of tackles and missed few, A big part of an ILB's job, and he was athletic enough to drop into coverage. But nothing from his career jumps out, for me at least, to suggest he was more than this.

And any comparisons to Bobby Wagner, who will be in the HOF, just don't make sense. Just my opinion.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

And any comparisons to Bobby Wagner, who will be in the HOF, just don't make sense. Just my opinion.

Agree.

Wagner was playing in a 4-3 and Martinez a 3-4. Much different assignments and teammates, so statistics don't always tell the full story. I think Blake was a decent (average) ILB and probably would have looked a bit better, with a solid DL in front of him, but he didn't have that luxury. However, I think the eye test would conclude that Blake was less physical and seemed to lack the reaction speed that Wagner had.

 

[gopkrs]

While I agree that a lot of factors make it hard to compare ILBs from different teams, Martinez was an above average ILB, a little better than "just a guy". He made a lot of tackles and missed few, A big part of an ILB's job, and he was athletic enough to drop into coverage. But nothing from his career jumps out, for me at least, to suggest he was more than this.

And any comparisons to Bobby Wagner, who will be in the HOF, just don't make sense. Just my opinion.

Well yes, I had high hopes for him when we drafted him out of Stanford. As the years went by though, I became unenamored with him. I am enamored with Q. And I am looking forward to watching him play this year.

 

[OldSchool101]

Yeah, don't say Martinez is as good as Wagner. Just point out stats that seem to say that. The truth is it matters nothing what the stats say. All you really have to do is actually watch games. Martinez was never even close to Wagner. I'm happy he's gone and I'm looking forward to what Q can do. The other one...Nick Barnett also had good stats. But he should have stayed on the outside and when he got hurt and Bishop took over...that's when the D started clicking and we went to the Super Bowl. And that was one big reason why.

Again. Offering 2 players who crossed over the same period to compare their production does not imply they are the same player. As an example I’ve sometimes offered 2 players to show how different they are.
You’re welcome to have your opinion idc you’re free to make your own opinion. However if you outwardly project it I’m just as free to disagree with it.

I do know he could’ve played better at times I’m in agreement there. Really had he played a little better in pass coverage (well rounded) he might’ve snuck into a Probowl designation etc..

 

[Schultz]

Here is where the forum goes off the rails at times. Oldschool correct me if I am wrong. I didn't think you were comparing Martinez the player to Wagner the player. I felt you were saying "hey look guys Martinez stats are closer to a top linebacker from the same time period than one might think. I don't think Blake was as bad as you guys make him out to be." Or maybe I am just projecting because IMO he does not get enough credit around here.

 

[OldSchool101]

Here is where the forum goes off the rails at times. Oldschool correct me if I am wrong. I didn't think you were comparing Martinez the player to Wagner the player. I felt you were saying "hey look guys Martinez stats are closer to a top linebacker from the same time period than one might think. I don't think Blake was as bad as you guys make him out to be." Or maybe I am just projecting because IMO he does not get enough credit around here.

Yes. You could say there are 5 tiers of iLB at any given time across the league. Let’s just call it roughly 50 total. Remember we’re excluding OLB which you’ll often see in a top 20 list.

1. 1-10 Elite/Near-Elite (Wagner-LVE)
2. 11-20 Very Good/Good
3. 21-30 Average
4. 31-40 Serviceable (Emerging)/Needs help
5. 41-50 Struggling/Poor level

Blake best fit is squarely into iLB group 2

Now we could argue had he been a little more proactive meeting a ball carrier at times, he could’ve quickly flipped to group 1. But just saying he was not good in general because of one weakness isn’t entirely true. Or had he been a better pass coverage LB like Wagner? he squeaks into that group 1 behind him. He’s not a group 4-5 guy either.

I also think Martinez was left on an island a lot and thus he had workhorse type numbers and he became a product of his environment. He was also healthy in GB and that availability goes a long ways. GB didn’t want to flirt with matching NY $10mil+ per for a really good Off Ball LB. That was teetering on good OLB $$ (Preston etc)

 

[Mondio]

Yes. You could say there are 5 tiers of iLB at any given time across the league. Let’s just call it roughly 50 total. Remember we’re excluding OLB which you’ll often see in a top 20 list.

1. 1-10 Elite/Near-Elite (Wagner-LVE)
2. 11-20 Very Good/Good
3. 21-30 Average
4. 31-40 Serviceable (Emerging)/Needs help
5. 41-50 Struggling/Poor level

Blake best fit is squarely into iLB group 2

Now we could argue had he been a little more proactive meeting a ball carrier at times, he could’ve quickly flipped to group 1. But just saying he was not good in general because of one weakness isn’t entirely true. Or had he been a better pass coverage LB like Wagner? he squeaks into that group 1 behind him. He’s not a group 4-5 guy either.

I also think Martinez was left on an island a lot and thus he had workhorse type numbers and he became a product of his environment. He was also healthy in GB and that availability goes a long ways. GB didn’t want to flirt with matching NY $10mil+ per for a really good Off Ball LB. That was teetering on good OLB $$ (Preston etc)

i would put him squarely in group 3 at best. His stats to me were always an anomaly. If you told me I needed to take Desmond Bishop or Blake Martinez, i might take Bishop pre knee injury almost every time.

Doesn't mean he was bad, but I don't think he was anything special either. I don't think we dropped off with Krys Barnes on the field in terms of what they brought to the field.

Even when he was playing here I had trouble coming up with any memorable plays he'd make in games. Yes, he made tackles, but the good ones make you remember at least some of them. He just didn't. Fine player in the 4th but he was average in so many ways in my eyes.

 

[Schultz]

IMO maybe my newest, bestest buddy and I just think that a 4th rounder, especially with so many 3rd round flops as well as day 1 & 2 DB misses deserves a little more R-E-S-P-E-C-T around here. Don't disappoint me Poker.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's time......

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[OldSchool101]

i would put him squarely in group 3 at best. His stats to me were always an anomaly. If you told me I needed to take Desmond Bishop or Blake Martinez, i might take Bishop pre knee injury almost every time.

Doesn't mean he was bad, but I don't think he was anything special either. I don't think we dropped off with Krys Barnes on the field in terms of what they brought to the field.

Even when he was playing here I had trouble coming up with any memorable plays he'd make in games. Yes, he made tackles, but the good ones make you remember at least some of them. He just didn't. Fine player in the 4th but he was average in so many ways in my eyes.

That’s better than I thought you’d say! I will offer that another team signed him to a $30.750Mil contract. So he didn’t see anywhere close to average at Market. Imo An average Off Ball LB a few years ago was 3-5M tops. I don’t know for sure, but I think GB likely offered him like 3X$20mil money which was a little low but not insulting either

I’ll tell you who looks Pedestrian. The Jets look like the Packers old scrubs! I’m sorry I just had to counter with that tonight.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Well yes, I had high hopes for him when we drafted him out of Stanford. As the years went by though, I became unenamored with him. I am enamored with Q. And I am looking forward to watching him play this year.

Yeah Q lived up to his billing - minus the ejections, which he'll have to deal with this year.

Martinez tackled a lot of guys, yeah usually after a gain but that's the nature of the position. It's very difficult. I can't say I was sad when he left for NY, and as it turned out, he didn't last long. He looked like he had the athleticism to play the position. He just never overwhelmed.

Anyway, I'm expecting big things from Walker this year. He'll have to get over his ejection history, and he will.

 

[Heyjoe4]

It's time......

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Notice how clean cut Rodgers is in his new home? He showed up in GB last year looking like Nic Cage, and them wore a haircut, if you can call it that, that made him look like Predator. He's smart not to call any more attention to him. He's got plenty already, and anything short of a Lombardi trophy will be considered a failure. Packer fans should relate.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Here is where the forum goes off the rails at times. Oldschool correct me if I am wrong. I didn't think you were comparing Martinez the player to Wagner the player. I felt you were saying "hey look guys Martinez stats are closer to a top linebacker from the same time period than one might think. I don't think Blake was as bad as you guys make him out to be." Or maybe I am just projecting because IMO he does not get enough credit around here.

You're right Schultz, and it's wrong for commenters to assign a direct comparison where none exists. This is how lies become "facts".

We can agree/disagree on Martinez, but no one directly compared him to Bobby Wagner. I missed that, so thanks for pointing it out in fairness to OS.