Fire Joe Barry -- Updated -- he's gone

[ARPackFan]

As long as they are not Jewish space lasers. I heard those things can get hot enough to start a forest fire.

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[Pokerbrat2000]

Knee or elbow doesn't have to hit the ground. It could be hip, head, butt. The rule is if any part of the body touches the ground other than the feet or hands, the runner is down.

Right and with that in mind, watch a game and keep an eye on the ball when that occurs. The ball itself and its position on the field when the runner is considered down, is important, since THAT establishes the new line of scrimmage. Refs don't always get that right and often get it wrong by a good yard.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Right and with that in mind, watch a game and keep an eye on the ball when that occurs. The ball itself and its position on the field when the runner is considered down, is important, since THAT establishes the new line of scrimmage. Refs don't always get that right and often get it wrong by a good yard.

Good point. It always seems like the ball is spotted short when a QB slides. But when he slides, the ball is placed, as you note, where it is when the QB is down, and that's a good yard or more behind his feet. That's important in deciding a first down, as the QB needs to be past the marker before he slides.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Good point. It always seems like the ball is spotted short when a QB slides. But when he slides, the ball is placed, as you note, where it is when the QB is down, and that's a good yard or more behind his feet. That's important in deciding a first down, as the QB needs to be past the marker before he slides.

Which is why I always question sliding feet first. If as someone posted previously, a runner that is giving themselves up, is protected from contact, than slide "ball first".

Again, to some this all may sound nit picky and non-sensical, but in a game that can be decided by mere inches, inches matter. So spot those balls correctly and if you need to use a spotter in the box, it takes seconds and nobody will hardly notice. Sometimes I think Football is stuck in pre-technology thinking and they don't want to admit that the refs on the field are limited by being human.

 

[gopkrs]

I think it is more dangerous for the QB to slide head first. Not always but as a general rule. But it certainly makes sense for all QBs to understand exactly how the ball will be placed after. Then, if they know where the 1st down line is and where the defenders are; they can make the decision when the play happens. It may be healthier for the QBs to just go for it if they are going to slide head first. imho

 

[Heyjoe4]

Which is why I always question sliding feet first. If as someone posted previously, a runner that is giving themselves up, is protected from contact, than slide "ball first".

Again, to some this all may sound nit picky and non-sensical, but in a game that can be decided by mere inches, inches matter. So spot those balls correctly and if you need to use a spotter in the box, it takes seconds and nobody will hardly notice. Sometimes I think Football is stuck in pre-technology thinking and they don't want to admit that the refs on the field are limited by being human.

Agreed. I did not know that a QB going head first to the ground was giving himself up. I’m still not certain that is the rule. And yeah it can be as much as one plus yards in spotting the bball.

I still think you’re right and anything other than sliding is not giving up.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I did not know that a QB going head first to the ground was giving himself up.

“giving yourself up”. The player needs to demonstrate that he has no intention of advancing the ball further

Nor did I know a headfirst dive can be viewed as giving oneself up. It also sounds like it applies to all ball carriers. At least that was what is posted a few days ago. Now the caveat is "when does an official determine that the player with the ball was actually "giving themself up"? A receiver making a diving catch, isn't giving himself up. A runner tackled on top of a defender and only their feet/hands touch the ground, isn't giving themselves up.

If a QB dove for the goal line and misjudged his dive, landed a yard short, but slid into the endzone untouched, is the ball down at the 1 or is it a TD?

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think it is more dangerous for the QB to slide head first. Not always but as a general rule. But it certainly makes sense for all QBs to understand exactly how the ball will be placed after. Then, if they know where the 1st down line is and where the defenders are; they can make the decision when the play happens. It may be healthier for the QBs to just go for it if they are going to slide head first. imho

Well if I were a QB I’d be sliding feet first. Anything else could end up with a concussion from a zealous DB, or worse.

 

[Heyjoe4]

“giving yourself up”. The player needs to demonstrate that he has no intention of advancing the ball further

Nor did I know a headfirst dive can be viewed as giving oneself up. It also sounds like it applies to all ball carriers. At least that was what is posted a few days ago. Now the caveat is "when does an official determine that the player with the ball was actually "giving themself up"? A receiver making a diving catch, isn't giving himself up. A runner tackled on top of a defender and only their feet/hands touch the ground, isn't giving themselves up.

If a QB dove for the goal line and misjudged his dive, landed a yard short, but slid into the endzone untouched, is the ball down at the 1 or is it a TD?

Seems to raise more questions than it answers. Much simpler to have a rule that any player who slides feet first is giving himself up. It's the safest way to do it and eliminates any confusion. And FWIW, I think that's pretty much how refs call it.

 

[Schultz]

Situations I seen Non QBs give themselves up.
1.To stop the clock and call a timeout before time expires at the end of a half or game.
2. Before scoring a TD in order to run out the clock.
3. After an interception when they think the game is clinched or in the endzone.
There are probably others.

Unfortunately #3 bit the Pack in the behind in the Seattle game if I recall correctly.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

3. After an interception when they think the game is clinched or in the endzone.
There are probably others.

Unfortunately #3 bit the Pack in the behind in the Seattle game if I recall correctly.

Agree. That play will haunt me forever.

Morgan Burnett was the one that intercepted that pass and decided to "give himself up" on the Packer 44 yard line. The Packers were up 19-7 with 5:07 to go in the game. The whole left side of the field was wide open for Burnett to have returned that ball a long way, maybe even for a TD. Packers go 3 and out and the rest is history.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well if I were a QB I’d be sliding feet first. Anything else could end up with a concussion from a zealous DB, or worse.

I'm not really a big fan of the slide rule myself. Yeah, sometimes the QB gets down in a real hurry and there aren't any players around him and its obvious. I also think that if a QB decides to take off running, he should be treated like any other ball carrier.

This hit on Flacco is what I am talking about. He slides late and not until the defensive player has committed to the tackle. I would have picked up the flag there. Yup, the hit looked brutal, but who's fault was it? A defender can't just pull up on every QB running at him, because some will juke and keep going. Nor can a defender stop his forward progress, once he has committed to the tackle. Flacco should have gotten down earlier.

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[Heyjoe4]

Agree. That play will haunt me forever.

Morgan Burnett was the one that intercepted that pass and decided to "give himself up" on the Packer 44 yard line. The Packers were up 19-7 with 5:07 to go in the game. The whole left side of the field was wide open for Burnett to have returned that ball a long way, maybe even for a TD. Packers go 3 and out and the rest is history.

Yeah and if I remember correctly, Julius Peppers motioned Burnett to go down after he picked it. I understand the need to play safe with the ball, but a two possession lead with 5 minutes remaining is hardly a guaranteed win (it should have been, but that's too painful to remember). A player can go down after an INT when he knows the opponent doesn't have the timeouts to force a punt, but that happens after the 2 minute warning.

That was an awful, awful loss though.......

 

[milani]

Yeah there was a time when they couldn't use their hands. They had to ball up their fists I think and keep their hands and arms inside the defenders shoulder pads. They can use their hands now to push back, but can't grab the jersey or pads, and still have to keep their hands inside the pads, I think.

Yes. Exactly. If you bought a football trading card in a bubble gum pack about 60 years ago you would see some offensive lineman with his hands making a fist. The arms would form a crossbow wingspan with the fists in front of each breast. That is how you had to block.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Yes. Exactly. If you bought a football trading card in a bubble gum pack about 60 years ago you would see some offensive lineman with his hands making a fist. The arms would form a crossbow wingspan with the fists in front of each breast. That is how you had to block.

Yeah I am old enough to remember those days. Now you see tackles routinely pushing rushers out, away, and around QBs - well that's what the good ones do. Imagine blocking Max Crosby or Micah Hyde with closed fists tucked in.....

 

[milani]

Yeah and if I remember correctly, Julius Peppers motioned Burnett to go down after he picked it. I understand the need to play safe with the ball, but a two possession lead with 5 minutes remaining is hardly a guaranteed win (it should have been, but that's too painful to remember). A player can go down after an INT when he knows the opponent doesn't have the timeouts to force a punt, but that happens after the 2 minute warning.

That was an awful, awful loss though.......

It was tragic. Peppers forgot who the opponent was. Wonder what MM was thinking when he went down.

 

[Heyjoe4]

It was tragic. Peppers forgot who the opponent was. Wonder what MM was thinking when he went down.

Actually I think Peppers forgot who MM was! MM played not to lose in those final 5 minutes, but that collapse was epic. A lot of players played a part, from Clinton-Dix not jumping to block a 2 pt conversion pass, to Bostic ignoring his order to let the onside kick go by, to whoever that linebacker was that completely ignored the possibility of a fake field goal. It was a team effort in a monumental loss. Hardest thing that I, and probably all Packer fans, had ever seen in a playoff loss.

 

[gopkrs]

Agree. That play will haunt me forever.

Morgan Burnett was the one that intercepted that pass and decided to "give himself up" on the Packer 44 yard line. The Packers were up 19-7 with 5:07 to go in the game. The whole left side of the field was wide open for Burnett to have returned that ball a long way, maybe even for a TD. Packers go 3 and out and the rest is history.

The way I remember it was that Burnett wanted to keep running but Julius Peppers was so insistent on him sliding that he did so.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The way I remember it was that Burnett wanted to keep running but Julius Peppers was so insistent on him sliding that he did so.

Peppers probably wasn't the only one telling him to go down, but yes, he was in his field of vision for sure. I mean I get it, he tries to pick up 20 yards, fumbles the ball, the Seahawks go on to win the game and Burnett is now the reason they lost..."he should have just fallen on the ball, the Packers win the game."

This is the part of the game where "football intelligence" and coaching come into play. The DC (Capers at the time) should have a "set decision" as to what to do in that situation and make it known to the players. Now, would Capers have said "Don't risk losing a turnover, go down with it" or "This game isn't over, do what you can to score some points for the team", is anybody's guess. I just know and remember well, that I was screaming at him to return it.

 

[rmontro]

Good point. It always seems like the ball is spotted short when a QB slides. But when he slides, the ball is placed, as you note, where it is when the QB is down, and that's a good yard or more behind his feet.

I thought the ball was placed at the point where the quarterback begins his slide.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Right and with that in mind, watch a game and keep an eye on the ball when that occurs. The ball itself and its position on the field when the runner is considered down, is important, since THAT establishes the new line of scrimmage. Refs don't always get that right and often get it wrong by a good yard.

The one that gets me is when a runner is trying to score and reaches for the pylon. Maybe the foot touches out of bounds at the 2 yard line but when he does the ball is actually at the 1. Inevitably, they spot the ball at the 2 instead of the where the ball was.

 

[gopkrs]

The one that gets me is when a runner is trying to score and reaches for the pylon. Maybe the foot touches out of bounds at the 2 yard line but when he does the ball is actually at the 1. Inevitably, they spot the ball at the 2 instead of the where the ball was.

That would be a bad spot. Unless the ball was out of bounds. It would be where the ball went out of bounds.

 

[BrokenArrow]

That would be a bad spot. Unless the ball was out of bounds. It would be where the ball went out of bounds.

They do it all the time though.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I thought the ball was placed at the point where the quarterback begins his slide.

I think it's placed where the ball is when the QB starts his slide, so a yard or so back from his feet. We're probably saying the same thing.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The one that gets me is when a runner is trying to score and reaches for the pylon. Maybe the foot touches out of bounds at the 2 yard line but when he does the ball is actually at the 1. Inevitably, they spot the ball at the 2 instead of the where the ball was.

Yup. Inconsistency at its worst. I saw some spots during the Packer game yesterday that made me scratch my head. Again, half the times the refs aren't in a great position to spot the ball where it actually should be. How difficult is it to have someone in the booth helping them? A billion dollar business that is too cheap to hire a few extra officials to help with a very key aspect of the game.