Fire Joe Barry -- Updated -- he's gone

[Heyjoe4]

I'm going to disagree on giving the Saints THAT much time, but otherwise, I agree with you. Both teams at times didn't manage the clock well. I have said it before and I will say it again, with all the money that is on the line and that these teams have, why the heck don't they hire 1 person, just 1! That person's job is to know clock management and all the ins and outs and instruct the coach on what the team should be doing in the way of timeouts, letting the clock run, etc.

Anyone who watched the Badger game Friday night, saw the Badgers completely lay an egg on offense in regards to clock management. I was playing poker with a group and we all were screaming at the TV "Stop snapping the ball with 10+ seconds on the play clock in the 4th Q. with only a 14 point lead that wasn't exactly safe!"

Good point. I always assume it's the HC who watches the clock, but that's probably not true, or at least not optimal. The Packers are notorious for wasting TOs, but that's mostly based on poor play calling necessitating a TO. As the 2 minute warning approaches, it surely would be a benefit to have one person tracking time management and communicating to the HC.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Good point. I was really surprised pre-game at the number of starters not starting. I don't recall every situation, but Doubs and Reed certainly are helping, and Reed didn't have anywhere near a great day. He did make catches when it was necessary. Doubs looks like he can catch anything.

And I thought the NO's CBs were outstanding. So at WR, yeah, the Packers played next-man-up very well.

All in all for a young team and with all the injuries, I am impressed with this team. Granted, they have only beat what appears to be a pretty bad Bears team and needed a 4th Q. miracle to get past the Saints, but they are showing signs of a lot of talent.

For me, this was going to be a development year for the Packers and most importantly, Jordan Love. I am impressed beyond expectations so far with Jordan. He looks poised, confident and has flashed some real talent, without making any big mistakes. That interception he threw yesterday, his only one of the season, was the equivalent of a punt and in a situation that if its caught or there was a PI call, probably worth the try.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Good point. I always assume it's the HC who watches the clock, but that's probably not true, or at least not optimal. The Packers are notorious for wasting TOs, but that's mostly based on poor play calling necessitating a TO. As the 2 minute warning approaches, it surely would be a benefit to have one person tracking time management and communicating to the HC.

I think Matt tries to watch the clock and call timeouts when he deems them to be necessary, but he has a lot on his plate and I am guessing, loses track of both the play and game clock at times. They seem to have a cheat sheet or great knowledge of "when to go for 2", which they did a masterful job of yesterday. Now it's time to get a person to help them master both the game and play clocks.

 

[El Guapo]

Time management ended Denny Green's time in Minnesota.

 

[milani]

Agree and the guy they signed to fill in for him, former Packer Jameal Williams was out too.

I'm not used to seeing this many starters out for the Packers, this early in the season, but depth is usually what separates teams in the NFL and so far, the Packers OL, WR's and CB's have shown some depth.

Yes, the experience will pay dividends. But the inexperience can prove costly if those players are tossed into the fire too much. Look at the mistakes yesterday and look at the number of penalties we have incurred over 3 games against teams that are not very good.

 

[milani]

I think Matt tries to watch the clock and call timeouts when he deems them to be necessary, but he has a lot on his plate and I am guessing, loses track of both the play and game clock at times. They seem to have a cheat sheet or great knowledge of "when to go for 2", which they did a masterful job of yesterday. Now it's time to get a person to help them master both the game and play clocks.

In the past the clock management and timeouts were determined by Rodgers. Now MLF has to coach. The offense played better in the no huddle in the 4th quarter with one or empty backfield and discarding the run game. It was kind of like sand lot. Guys just go out, run your basics, and block. This simplified everything for our offense. They did not have to think as much. And the Saints just figured their physical secondary could stop them. Not long enough.

 

[milani]

Time management ended Denny Green's time in Minnesota.

I think Denny's last game in Minny was against us. And his QB was Spergon Wynn.
All the time in the world could not manage that.

 

[milani]

I'm going to disagree on giving the Saints THAT

much time, but otherwise, I agree with you. Both teams at times didn't manage the clock well. I have said it before and I will say it again, with all the money that is on the line and that these teams have, why the heck don't they hire 1 person, just 1! That person's job is to know clock management and all the ins and outs and instruct the coach on what the team should be doing in the way of timeouts, letting the clock run, etc.

Anyone who watched the Badger game Friday night, saw the Badgers completely lay an egg on offense in regards to clock management. I was playing poker with a group and we all were screaming at the TV "Stop snapping the ball with 10+ seconds on the play clock in the 4th Q. with only a 14 point lead that wasn't exactly safe!"

You maybe saying we scored too quickly. The way yesterday went just scoring period was necessary. We ran 71 plays and the Saints D was wearing and starting to commit penalties. Except for Love taking off our run game was going nowhere. And with all the mistakes we made earlier we needed to run the offense with the momentum we had and just keep it going. Stop and analyze and we botch it up.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

You maybe saying we scored too quickly. The way yesterday went just scoring period was necessary. We ran 71 plays and the Saints D was wearing and starting to commit penalties. Except for Love taking off our run game was going nowhere. And with all the mistakes we made earlier we needed to run the offense with the momentum we had and just keep it going. Stop and analyze and we botch it up.

Could be. However, a team can still be in the no huddle (not allowing defensive substitutions) and still milk the game clock. Love was getting the snap with quite a bit of time left on the play clock.

Again, I can never complain about scoring a TD, I just think more time could have been taken off the game clock in the process. Had the Saints made that final game winning FG, clock management might be a hot topic of discussion today.

 

[milani]

Winston tossed 5 tds vs the Packers 2 years ago?

I have to watch the kick again. Inside the stadium it appeared that the kicker fluffed it. The wind was not strong. And in pregame he was booming them out of the end zone. This kick looked like it barely reached the goal posts.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Yes, the experience will pay dividends. But the inexperience can prove costly if those players are tossed into the fire too much. Look at the mistakes yesterday and look at the number of penalties we have incurred over 3 games against teams that are not very good.

Given the youth of this team, mistakes are a part of the learning process, so I don't mind them all that much, if they learn from them. For me, the worst penalty of the day was made by veteran Kenny Clark. People were ******* Quay Walker last year for 2 over zealous rookie penalties. Clark knows better, his 15 yarder was just stupid. As far as Walker goes, I am loving what I see out of this guy. At times, Barry seems to have him alone on an island playing something like a middle LB and he is playing the part quite well.

 

[Heyjoe4]

You maybe saying we scored too quickly. The way yesterday went just scoring period was necessary. We ran 71 plays and the Saints D was wearing and starting to commit penalties. Except for Love taking off our run game was going nowhere. And with all the mistakes we made earlier we needed to run the offense with the momentum we had and just keep it going. Stop and analyze and we botch it up.

Agreed. In general, I'm not crazy about messing with momentum to try and time the TD. If it's a game ending FG it's a different matter. I was more upset that the D couldn't step up on that last Saints's drive. But even if they had made that FG, the Packers would have gotten it right back. They only played well for one quarter and it was the only quarter that mattered.

But damn it would be nice to get some of these guys off the injured list, in particular, Watson/Jones/Bakh. I understand Bakh is managing through a very problematic knee, but at some point that has got to change. My guess is that this is his last year in GB, maybe the NFL. That's a shame.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Time management ended Denny Green's time in Minnesota.

I thought it was his decade of ineptitude.

 

[pacmaniac]

Time management ended Denny Green's time in Minnesota.

That was such a conservative era. Denny Green wasn't the only coach who would have taken 3 kneel downs with 1 minute left in a tie game with 3 timeouts and just taken their chances in overtime.

 

[pacmaniac]

Again, I can never complain about scoring a TD, I just think more time could have been taken off the game clock in the process. Had the Saints made that final game winning FG, clock management might be a hot topic of discussion today.

I don't think so because the Packers woulda gotten the ball back with 1 minute left and 2 timeouts.

 

[milani]

That was such a conservative era. Denny Green wasn't the only coach who would have taken 3 kneel downs with 1 minute left in a tie game with 3 timeouts and just taken their chances in overtime.

And OT back then was simply first to score.

 

[JK64]

What's he gonna do? He should have fired Barry after the last season. Now what? When Desmond Ridder and some no-name receivers can beat you, there's a big problem. I think it's the almost constant use of soft zone with corners playing well off the LOS.

Is there another coach on staff who could step up? It's too soon, but something has to give if this continues. The Falcons are an ok team, but not that good. And how does the D give up 172 yards to Robinson when they know he's running?

Add two dropped INTs, one a sure pic 6, and it's time to take a closer look and make changes, somewhere.

I would rather have Leroy Butler. Couldn't do any worse.

 

[longtimefan]

What's he gonna do? He should have fired Barry after the last season. Now what? When Desmond Ridder and some no-name receivers can beat you, there's a big problem. I think it's the almost constant use of soft zone with corners playing well off the LOS.

Is there another coach on staff who could step up? It's too soon, but something has to give if this continues. The Falcons are an ok team, but not that good. And how does the D give up 172 yards to Robinson when they know he's running?

Add two dropped INTs, one a sure pic 6, and it's time to take a closer look and make changes, somewhere.

Cant fault a coach for dropped passes. In fact, one might say Joe put his players in the proper spot

 

[Heyjoe4]

I would rather have Leroy Butler. Couldn't do any worse.

I agree with that, at least for the rest of this year and if Butler would want the job. If not Butler, promote the most current D coach with the most potential. Again, there's always time to change in the off season when better candidates become available.

Most would say, and correctly, that firing Barry now is too soon and to give him the year. And the D isn't doing too bad statistically I think. And in reality, this is probably how it plays out. The team looks pretty good all things considered and why shake up the locker room with a change this big.

So I guess we're stuck with Barry for this season. It's just too bad he wasn't canned after last year. This team is forming now, and it would have been nice to have a solid DC along for the ride. Woulda, shoulda, coulda. I'm thinking out loud and that's dangerous.

 

[El Guapo]

I thought it was his decade of ineptitude.

Funny but wildly incorrect. He went 97-63 as head coach of the Vikings, including a winning record against the Packers (led by Favre). In fact, I would argue he was the best coach they ever had save for Bud Grant. All he did was guide them to 8 playoff runs in 10 seasons. He also led them to a 15-1 record in 1998 when they broke the record for most points scored in a season. All of this was done with a bunch of has-been QBs and journeymen that did nothing but win under his direction. One could argue that he benefitted from Randy Moss, but Moss was only there for the last four years. We've seen great talents like Megatron and others flounder on teams with worse coaching.

Green was constantly under attack from Vikings ownership, with them famously trying to lure Lou Holtz in 1996. What had Green done up to that point? He took a bad team and posted winning records ever season (except 8-8 in 1995) and won the NFC North twice in four years.

The problem with Denny was that he struggled in postseason games, and often due to clock management or bad coaching decisions in the biggest moments. The team always wanted to replace him and finally did near the end of the 2001 season because the fans were sick of being good but not good enough to get to the Super Bowl.

 

[BrokenArrow]

The problem with Denny was that he struggled in postseason games

That's what I meant by ineptitude. Failing when it matters most.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't think so because the Packers woulda gotten the ball back with 1 minute left and 2 timeouts.

I would have preferred that it was the Saints that got the ball back with less than a minute on the clock and no timeouts.

Like I said, the Packers scored, the Saints didn't and the Packers won the game, so I am happy. I just hope next time the Packers are in the same position, someone thinks about taking more time off the clock and forcing the other team to burn timeouts, during a winning scoring drive.

 

[milani]

Funny but wildly incorrect. He went 97-63 as head coach of the Vikings, including a winning record against the Packers (led by Favre). In fact, I would argue he was the best coach they ever had save for Bud Grant. All he did was guide them to 8 playoff runs in 10 seasons. He also led them to a 15-1 record in 1998 when they broke the record for most points scored in a season. All of this was done with a bunch of has-been QBs and journeymen that did nothing but win under his direction. One could argue that he benefitted from Randy Moss, but Moss was only there for the last four years. We've seen great talents like Megatron and others flounder on teams with worse coaching.

Green was constantly under attack from Vikings ownership, with them famously trying to lure Lou Holtz in 1996. What had Green done up to that point? He took a bad team and posted winning records ever season (except 8-8 in 1995) and won the NFC North twice in four years.

The problem with Denny was that he struggled in postseason games, and often due to clock management or bad coaching decisions in the biggest moments. The team always wanted to replace him and finally did near the end of the 2001 season because the fans were sick of being good but not good enough to get to the Super Bowl.

I never looked forward to facing him when he was there. The Vikings had some bad coaches through the years but he was not one of them. Back then they were owned by Red McCheap.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I would have preferred that it was the Saints that got the ball back with less than a minute on the clock and no timeouts.

Like I said, the Packers scored, the Saints didn't and the Packers won the game, so I am happy. I just hope next time the Packers are in the same position, someone thinks about taking more time off the clock and forcing the other team to burn timeouts, during a winning scoring drive.

For some reason, clock management has been a problem for GB for at least the last 4 or 5 years. They seem to rarely get to the 2 minute warning in either half with all three timeouts. Sometimes I think they would be better taking a delay of game penalty than burning a TO. And if they can't manage that, then more complex issues of managing both their clock, and how much time they want to leave an opponent - well that seems to be a big ask.

I don't know if it was this thread, but someone suggested having one person responsible for time management with a direct like to MLF's ear. It seems like a good idea. Does anyone know if any other teams do this?

 

[Heyjoe4]

I never looked forward to facing him when he was there. The Vikings had some bad coaches through the years but he was not one of them. Back then they were owned by Red McCheap.

Agreed. I thought Green was a very good coach who was frustrated by Queens' management. I mean, there has to be a reason for 50 plus years without a SB win.