Fire Capers

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Patriotplayer90

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The Packers defense is clearly one of the five worst in the league. The last three games have been atrocious. Is Capers at fault? I doubt it. TT hasn't given him talent to work with. The lack of athleticism on the defense is staggering. Every year I keep pointing out the lack of speed, size and leaping ability. Let's finally admit the draft and development philosophy can't build a defense on its own. Capers was ok when he had talent to work with. The real culprit is TT. Too many busts and way too many drafts where he failed to fill in obvious holes in the team.
You're probably right. Our defense usually dominates weak competition, especially at home, and gets demolished against the elite teams. Hence why they are always near the middle of the pack. They are worse than they look on paper.
 

longtimefan

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Would changing the coordinator at this point a bad idea? It's not like it would get any worse. To me I see it as a sign of a team that will not tolerate that type of performance and will send a message clear to everyone in the organization. But by keeping him, they are accepting this type of performance. It really shouldn't even be a discussion. There are no valid points as to why this idiot should even keep his job at this point. There are many reasons as why he should've been fired years ago.


Serious question--

They fired Slocum--cut Bostick--clearly showing they wont put up with those mistakes.

So after all this time and Capers is still here, wouldnt it be very logical to think that MM is "okay" with how Dom is handling things? Could MM know what Dom is trying to get the players to do, but knows some on the defense lack the talent to get the Def to have success?
 

Patriotplayer90

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Serious question--

They fired Slocum--cut Bostick--clearly showing they wont put up with those mistakes.

So after all this time and Capers is still here, wouldnt it be very logical to think that MM is "okay" with how Dom is handling things? Could MM know what Dom is trying to get the players to do, but knows some on the defense lack the talent to get the Def to have success?
Possibly. Now, only if TT could do something to get him more talent.....Wait, that's exactly what he's supposed to , yet fails to do.
 
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azrsx05

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I don't disagree that TT isn't not as great as made to be. He won't admit when his drafts have failed get a free agent to help fix the issues. But I believe that Capers has to be held accountable for not scheming to his players strengths
 
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It is still hard to believe that our players are THAT bad after all the priority that has been put on defense in the draft.

Would changing the coordinator at this point a bad idea? It's not like it would get any worse. To me I see it as a sign of a team that will not tolerate that type of performance and will send a message clear to everyone in the organization. But by keeping him, they are accepting this type of performance. It really shouldn't even be a discussion. There are no valid points as to why this idiot should even keep his job at this point. There are many reasons as why he should've been fired years ago.

While it´s tough to believe that the talent level on defense isn´t any better it´s the most probable explanation for the unit´s shortcomings. IMO the best indicator for it is to take a look at the performance of former Packers defensive players who either signed with or were traded to other teams. I can´t think of a single player who made a huge leap playing for a different defensive coordinator with some of them even being coached by Bill Belichick.
 

ls1bob

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While it´s tough to believe that the talent level on defense isn´t any better it´s the most probable explanation for the unit´s shortcomings. IMO the best indicator for it is to take a look at the performance of former Packers defensive players who either signed with or were traded to other teams. I can´t think of a single player who made a huge leap playing for a different defensive coordinator with some of them even being coached by Bill Belichick.
Come to think about it Capt you are right. Tramon Williams has looked awful in a couple of games I have seen him play for the Browns this year.Maybe draft and develop isn't as effective on defense as someone stated earlier.I think a quality FA veteran in the secondary would be tremendous in helping the young guys along.A good linebacker either OLB or ILB would be nice too,that way Clay would get some much needed help
 

Mondio

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Come to think about it Capt you are right. Tramon Williams has looked awful in a couple of games I have seen him play for the Browns this year.Maybe draft and develop isn't as effective on defense as someone stated earlier.I think a quality FA veteran in the secondary would be tremendous in helping the young guys along.A good linebacker either OLB or ILB would be nice too,that way Clay would get some much needed help
and there were teams that though Williams and House would be a tremendous help in their secondaries, hence the pretty decent FA contracts they were signed too. FA's aren't always a win
 

PackerDNA

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While it´s tough to believe that the talent level on defense isn´t any better it´s the most probable explanation for the unit´s shortcomings. IMO the best indicator for it is to take a look at the performance of former Packers defensive players who either signed with or were traded to other teams. I can´t think of a single player who made a huge leap playing for a different defensive coordinator with some of them even being coached by Bill Belichick.

And there's problem #1; the talent level isn't that high. Good enough in Green Bay doesn't translate to good enough to win it all.
 

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"That was a three-man rush," Clinton-Dix said. "Cam had a lot of time in the pocket, and the guy came loose."
The score would have been a lot worse if Newton's throws were within an extension ladder of the receivers half the time. Nobody was within 10 yards of the receivers on a lot of them. Reminds me of when Bob Sanders was our coordinator.
 
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I think a quality FA veteran in the secondary would be tremendous in helping the young guys along.A good linebacker either OLB or ILB would be nice too,that way Clay would get some much needed help

I think the Packers are fine in the secondary as long as everyone is healthy. Shields and Randall are quality starters although the team has to deal with some rookie mistakes by Randall. Hayward is way better suited to play in the slot and either Rollins or Hyde are fine playing in the dime.

The inside linebacker position is a whole different story though. Thompson hasn´t adequately addressed that position for years and it has cost the Packers immensely. Outside linebacker would be a strength of the defense if Matthews wouldn´t have to play inside.
 
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and there were teams that though Williams and House would be a tremendous help in their secondaries, hence the pretty decent FA contracts they were signed too. FA's aren't always a win

It´s absolutely true that signing free agents doesn´t always work out. Taking a look at the Packers defense over the last few season mostly ignoring other ways than the draft to bring in talent hasn´t made them any better either though. Teams have to be smart using FA and trades to upgrade the roster but it´s pretty obvious that Thompson´s approach on that side of the ball isn´t working.
 
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"It started with a 59-yard completion on third-and-16 at the Carolina 26 early in the second quarter in which 33-year-old receiver Jericho Cotchery roamed completely free between two layers of defense. Capers rushed just three and Newton just waited until someone came free.

"That was a three-man rush," Clinton-Dix said. "Cam had a lot of time in the pocket, and the guy came loose."

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...s-against-panthers-b99610567z1-343320972.html

The Packers blitzed on 62.9% of Newton´s dropbacks sending six or more guys on 25.7% of the time (highest percentage in Capers´ tenure with the Packers). While I don´t like a three-man rush either the defense wasn´t able to put any pressure on Newton by blitzing and it was for sure not Capers fault none of the eight guys dropping into coverage didn´t feel the need to cover Cotchery on that play.
 

JBlood

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So after all this time and Capers is still here, wouldnt it be very logical to think that MM is "okay" with how Dom is handling things?
Seems to me illogical to think that things are "okay" when they aren't. In the 7 seasons Capers has had control over the defense, only 2009 and 2010 were his defenses top 10 in points allowed, or average yard/rushing attempt (stopping the run is Capers' no. 1 priority, according to himself). In pts allowed his defenses have been 19th, 11th, 24th, 13th, and 12th from 2011 to 2015. In yards/rushing attempt from 2011 to this year his defenses rank 26, 26, 29, 20, and 25 so far this year. Bob Sanders was fired after similar results in 2 of his 3 years.
 

Mondio

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The Packers blitzed on 62.9% of Newton´s dropbacks sending six or more guys on 25.7% of the time (highest percentage in Capers´ tenure with the Packers). While I don´t like a three-man rush either the defense wasn´t able to put any pressure on Newton by blitzing and it was for sure not Capers fault none of the eight guys dropping into coverage didn´t feel the need to cover Cotchery on that play.
But it's easy to ***** about the play calls. It's like the offense, if you can't keep the Dline or a linebacker off your QB for 2 seconds so he can drop back and make a read or run block for ****, it won't matter what play you call. Just like if you send 6 at the qb, if nobody comes free, it probably isn't going to end well or if you cover with 8 and somebody that is supposed to be deep is 10 yards too shallow when the ball is thrown, he's getting beat too.
 

Mondio

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It´s absolutely true that signing free agents doesn´t always work out. Taking a look at the Packers defense over the last few season mostly ignoring other ways than the draft to bring in talent hasn´t made them any better either though. Teams have to be smart using FA and trades to upgrade the roster but it´s pretty obvious that Thompson´s approach on that side of the ball isn´t working.
if you look at it in a vacuum, sure, I'd agree. But then most of the names thrown around here every year would most likely NOT have helped GB either in that we'd be missing someone that is of value on our team at present, or they would be injured, or they didn't turn out like everyone thought. It's easy to be "right" when there are no consequences and only one ball is moving in a hypothetical scenario.

i'm not going to play out all the past scenarios, but at 6-2 and one made play away from a super bowl last year, I think TT has done some things that are working. Call me crazy, but we could be the Titans, though I did see someone praising them for changing a coach. Just think, we could be just like them.
 
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if you look at it in a vacuum, sure, I'd agree. But then most of the names thrown around here every year would most likely NOT have helped GB either in that we'd be missing someone that is of value on our team at present, or they would be injured, or they didn't turn out like everyone thought. It's easy to be "right" when there are no consequences and only one ball is moving in a hypothetical scenario.

i'm not going to play out all the past scenarios, but at 6-2 and one made play away from a super bowl last year, I think TT has done some things that are working. Call me crazy, but we could be the Titans, though I did see someone praising them for changing a coach. Just think, we could be just like them.

Don´t get me wrong I´m absolutely grateful that the Packers have been Super Bowl contenders most of the time during Thompson´s tenure. Nevertheless it´s disappointing not winning the Lombardi Trophy while having the best QB in the league. This year´s defense doesn´t have me extremely confident the results will be any different than over the last four postseasons.

BTW I don´t think that selectively using free agency to address positions of need results in the team having to lose some other player of value.
 

Mondio

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I think if our offensive line starts protecting like they can, a lot of our "issues" will go away on both sides of the ball. I'm not blind to what's happening on defense at times, but mostly, they seem to be good enough to win a Lombardi. I can't explain HaHa's head in the clouds game, but most everyone else was ok. But an offense that loses yards on 5 of their first 6 possessions and has a turnover to give the Panthers easy points isn't doing anyone any favors either.

Just think what this defense could be if Nick Collins was not out because of injury? You think we'd have had those dismal rankings or performances? He was a draft pick, who was the FA that was going to replace what he gave us? and how much money would we have spent trying to find that guy? and who would we have lost because of it? Neither way is perfect to build a team and things happen outside of merely making a decision on a FA or draft pick that will greatly alter the course of a team, like a career ending injury and then the team has to adapt and change.
 

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IMHO, Capers is unfairly blamed for what chronically ails this defense: lack of talent overall. Injuries will always exacerbate the problem and everyone realizes that they are inevitable and unpredictable. I'm also of the opinion that TT and his scouting staff draft quite well overall, especially certain positions, such as WR. Conversely, I'm also of the opinion that they do not draft quite as well when it comes to certain other positions. DL, for example. Frankly, I doubt whether any GM and staff are totally strong across the board when it comes to the draft. So how does a team back-fill positions of weakness, regardless of the reasons for it?

The better a team drafts the less it needs to dabble in free agency. The Packers fit this profile. But it would seem that no team is immune from needing improvement somewhere on their roster, the Packers included. Obviously, the draft may not solve every problem immediately.

TT trusts MM, and MM trusts his coaching staff to develop the talent to acceptable levels at all positions. That's the objective of draft and develop. They're firmly committed to it. But when there's a glaring weakness present, especially one that is chronic, it is a disappointment to me that TT does not use the one avenue left that's available to him to patch weaknesses -- at least until one of the draft choices develops adequately, and even more so when they do not.

It does not matter which position is considered the weakest and most in need. That's not my point. The point is that free-agency may not be utilized effectively to complement the roster of a Packer team that otherwise drafts quite well. But the team has started out the season with a glaring weakness or two, sometimes chronically at certain positions. A soft, short middle that gets gashed consistently by both the run and pass comes to mind. Capers can't compensate for that lack of talent in-house when doing so may also weaken another position, as moving Matthews has done, for example. Robbing Peter to pay Paul does not seem to be working well at ILB. Matthews cannot play both positions simultaneously.

The draft cannot fill every need. When it doesn't free-agency could help.
 
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I think if our offensive line starts protecting like they can, a lot of our "issues" will go away on both sides of the ball. I'm not blind to what's happening on defense at times, but mostly, they seem to be good enough to win a Lombardi. I can't explain HaHa's head in the clouds game, but most everyone else was ok. But an offense that loses yards on 5 of their first 6 possessions and has a turnover to give the Panthers easy points isn't doing anyone any favors either.

There´s no doubt the offensive line is a major reason the offense is struggling. The defense on the other has several issues with Clinton-Dix´s play on Sunday being only one of them.

Just think what this defense could be if Nick Collins was not out because of injury? You think we'd have had those dismal rankings or performances? He was a draft pick, who was the FA that was going to replace what he gave us? and how much money would we have spent trying to find that guy? and who would we have lost because of it? Neither way is perfect to build a team and things happen outside of merely making a decision on a FA or draft pick that will greatly alter the course of a team, like a career ending injury and then the team has to adapt and change.

It doesn´t matter if you re-sign one of your own players to a lucrative contract or sign a free agent to an expensive deal, the ramifications on the salary cap are the same and some other player will have to be let go. The decision to bring in a free agent should be based on if that player can be an upgrade on a position of need and if he fits into the locker room. By only using the draft to bring in talent Thompson doesn´t use all ways to bring in talent though and IMO that has translated to the defense having below average talent.
 

PackerDNA

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Mondio, with all due respect, we do this a lot, and just go round and round on it.
You are 100% correct that free agency doesn't always work. But it's like an unfinished sentence, the rest of which would be 'but sometimes it does'.
Both sides can cherry pick to make their point. But look at the best defenses in the league.
Denver-Ware, Ward , Talib. Top players and key contributors, also big ticket free agents.
Seattle-Avril and Bennett, key contributors added in free agency.
New England isn't afraid to get guys like Revis, even on a rental basis. I could go on.
It comes back to the toolbox;
1) Draft
2) Free Agency
3) Trades
Any GM who doesn't employ all 3 at every opportunity is doing a grave disservice to his team.
All the Packers shortcomings will not be fixed in the draft. Not only that, if TT insists on only draft and develop, the team will likely take a step or two back in the near future. There are going to be a lot of key players on this roster coming up for free agency the next two off seasons. You won't be able to keep them all, and you won't be able to keep up with just the draft.
Maybe Davis is pretty much done, and wouldn't be a huge difference maker. But for years, he's been a big time weapon as a receiver. But here's what bothers me.
The TE position is a weakness here, and that weakness makes it easier for opponents to shut down your passing game. Now maybe Davis isn't what he used to be, but he's still vastly superior to any TE on this roster.
By all accounts, TT did not so much as make an inquiry about him. I don't believe he so much as considered going after him- although that's pure speculation on my part. Denver got him cheap. But like the other most successful teams in recent years- New England and Seattle- Denver isn't averse to using every tool in the toolbox.
Thompson's draft and develop philosophy is the right way to go; it's the best way to build and maintain a good team. But it is diminished when it is a stand alone strategy. As Captain Wimm points out, a lot of draft picks in recent years have been spent on the defensive side of the ball. Only an aging Peppers has been added through free agency in the last 10 years as a 'big time' signing. Yet we have what we have; a unit that gets horribly gashed too often and to a degree that is unacceptable for an NFL team.
Fire Capers? Well, we can talk about his faults- mostly perceived -all day. Maybe after all this time, Dom's way has gone stale. As far as his play calls in games and prep during the week, we have no idea. None of us is in meetings, on the practice field, in meetings, or knows what calls and why Dom makes in game.
Carl's challenge remains unanswered; what calls did he make that you have a problem with? What calls, and why in those situations?
Go ahead, fire Capers. It won't result in any significant improvement, if at all.
IMO, here are the biggest problems with this unit;
1) Overall, a lack of talent
2) Too much youth and inexperience on the field- at too many positions, in too many key situations, for too many plays. A product of stand alone strictly draft and develop.
3) Too many 'stupid' players, or more to the point, guys with low football IQ's.
Outside of the rookies, all of these guys have been here , and as a group, for at least 1 1/2 years of training camps, practices, meetings and games. And yet the number and degree of mental mistakes, blown coverages, and blown assignments (and as an aside, blown routes on offence) is appalling and inexcusable.
Bottom line, TT is going to have to step outside of his comfort zone and open the whole toolbox.
If he can't- or won't do this- then maybe he's gone stale and needs to be replaced.
 

PackerDNA

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Great post, Sky King; I didn't notice it until I finished typing and posted mine, so we make a lot of the same points.
Another case of great minds think alike.:D
 

Mondio

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Round and round is right, and in each situation, they are all unique. Seattle was paying a quality QB 3rd round rookie money. We'll see what happens to all their FA money going forward. They were very fortunate. I'd venture a guess that if Rodgers was making 3rd round rookie money for a few years, we'd have seen a few more FA's

The Patriots have been the exception to almost everything over the years lately. They're good, I can't explain it, I also don't expect it to work very often as they are the exception, not the rule.

Denver? They still have won nothing, are 1 game better than us in record. Let's see where they are at the end of the year and they have a lot of FA's, important FA's coming up next year. I'm guessing they don't have a QB either. IMO, they are all in for this year and if they don't get it, then what?

All unique situations and different than GB.
 

Mondio

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Collins would have been old and probably in decline by now.
he was just hitting his prime, you think our defense would have been as bad the previous 4 years? do you think we'd have had to use at least 4 picks at safety in that time? could those picks have been used elsewhere? and a declining Collins at this point is probably still better than either of the 2 we have now and most others in the league. That guy could do everything.
 
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