Dumervile to Green Bay?

[OldSchool101]

Thompson should have addressed the outside linebacker position in free agency as well. There are still some decent veteran players available though, maybe the Packers add another one before the start of the season.

Wimm. What are your thoughts on Eric Walden ?

 

[Sky King]

I actually believed we would sign an OLB/edge rusher before the Corner position. While neither Julius or Datone were overly impressive last year, we still lost 2 veteran pass rushers both drafted in the 1st round. My guess is that we went after CB, not because we didn't need another formidable early round pass rusher direly, but because we had to make a sacrifice between the 2 positions and CB was our glaring weakness in 2016.
We could use a low cost, short term (2 year) veteran signing like this that would allow our rookies and 2nd Year players to get some seasoning.

You're probably correct about all that. Because of what occurred in the offseason I had been anticipating that TT would prioritize an edge rusher somewhat above CB for his first pick. It is a consolation that he was able to get both because of the trade-down. As another poster had astutely pointed-out soon after the draft, we just have to hope that King + Biegel > Watt.

 

[OldSchool101]

You're probably correct about all that. Because of what occurred in the offseason I had been anticipating that TT would prioritize an edge rusher somewhat above CB for his first pick. It is a consolation that he was able to get both because of the trade-down. As another poster had astutely pointed-out soon after the draft, we just have to hope that King + Biegel > Watt.

I remember that. No offense to Watt as I actually would've welcomed him.. but I'll take King AND Biegel over TJ and I think this was Teds Craftiest draft move in several years.
King was essentially a 1st rounder in many drafts and his height is rare at Corner. We've needed a talented 6'1"+ CB since basically Randy Moss entered the league but the nimble ones were few or far between over those years.
Id love nothing more than to see King rise to the occasion

 

[Sky King]

I remember that. No offense to Watt as I actually would've welcomed him.. but I'll take King AND Biegel over TJ and I think this was Teds Craftiest draft move in several years.
King could've easily went in the 1st round in many drafts and his height is rare at Corner. We've needed a 6'1"+ CB since basically Randy Moss entered the league but the nimble ones were few or far between over those years.
Id love nothing more than to see King rise to the occasion

Amen to that. Seeing the DBs consistently getting fricasseed (by receivers ranging from good to only fair) pretty much all of last season was not an easy thing to watch. Although he hasn't played a down yet I think I would already trust King way more than I would trust either of those two. The same goes for trusting House rather than Randall or Rollins.

Still, I'm hoping that 2016 was an anomaly for them both and that real progress will show this season -- good enough to make us forget all about last year.

 

[rodell330]

I don't know that Houston is much more injury prone than Dumervil at this point.

Or Matthews or Perry haha. Between the 3 or 4 of them we should get at least 16 games.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Wimm. What are your thoughts on Eric Walden ?

I'm not that excited about the possibility of bringing Walden back to the Packers as I believe that Dumervil is a far more talented player even at this stage of his career.

You're probably correct about all that. Because of what occurred in the offseason I had been anticipating that TT would prioritize an edge rusher somewhat above CB for his first pick. It is a consolation that he was able to get both because of the trade-down. As another poster had astutely pointed-out soon after the draft, we just have to hope that King + Biegel > Watt.

I'm not convinced Biegel will have an immediate impact though as there's no reason to consider him a first or second round talent.

Amen to that. Seeing the DBs consistently getting fricasseed (by receivers ranging from good to only fair) pretty much all of last season was not an easy thing to watch. Although he hasn't played a down yet I think I would already trust King way more than I would trust either of those two. The same goes for trusting House rather than Randall or Rollins.

Unfortunately I expect that it will take King some time to develop into a decent starter at the pro level. House is an average cornerback at best who performed at a serviceable level while being the fourth CB on the Packers depth chart three years ago.

I don't feel overly confident entering the season with them starting on the boundary.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

I'm not that excited about the possibility of bringing Walden back to the Packers as I believe that Dumervil is a far more talented player even at this stage of his career.



I'm not convinced Biegel will have an immediate impact though as there's no reason to consider him a first or second round talent.



Unfortunately I expect that it will take King some time to develop into a decent starter at the pro level. House is an average cornerback at best who performed at a serviceable level while being the fourth CB on the Packers depth chart three years ago.

I don't feel overly confident entering the season with them starting on the boundary.

It was just the year before last that Dumervil was one of the more productive pass rushers in the league in terms of pressures. He would be an asset.

 

[OldSchool101]

I'm game for any signing that is cost effective and brings experience to a relatively young team overall. We could certainly use more experience at the LB position and its more concerning to me than either backfield at this point. I like our chances with Josh and Kevin being injected into the mix. While Biegel is a nice find in the 4th round.. I don't see his probability of performing any better than a guy like Datone Jones at best. We still have to account for the loss of Peppers who, while may have had declining play, was a double digit sack artist that was attuned to disrupting the pocket and who drew attention more than the average Defensive player IMO.
Signing a veteran makes sense, even if he doesn't achieve double digit sacks. I'd like to get someone who can play at a higher level out of the gate as an insurance policy at OLB. We just lowered our output by $10mil/year with letting Peppers go, I don't think spending $3-$5Mil on an established veteran would be out of line whatsoever and I would even consider a 2 year deal to lure them to GB. I would almost rather see a veteran OLB than any other position group right now

 

[pizzle]

I'd like to get someone who can play at a higher level out of the gate as an insurance policy at OLB. We just lowered our output by $10mil/year with letting Peppers go, I don't think spending $3-$5Mil on an established veteran would be out of line whatsoever and I would even consider a 2 year deal to lure them to GB. I would almost rather see a veteran OLB than any other position group right now

THIS. I'm growing on the Josh Jones pick because I'm convinced he's gonna be used like a LB alot in our defensive scheme. I was fine with the trade down for King from jump. But we are glaringly thin in talent, depth, and production at OLB. Ted is playing a dangerous game with our D-he keeps leaving an area low in order to preserve a bevy of cap space, and it eventually bites us in the butt. We need 2 guys to replace what we lost. IDK when/where we're gonna get it from, but we do need some pass rushers.

 

[ExpatPacker]

I'm not that excited about the possibility of bringing Walden back to the Packers as I believe that Dumervil is a far more talented player even at this stage of his career.



I'm not convinced Biegel will have an immediate impact though as there's no reason to consider him a first or second round talent.



Unfortunately I expect that it will take King some time to develop into a decent starter at the pro level. House is an average cornerback at best who performed at a serviceable level while being the fourth CB on the Packers depth chart three years ago.

I don't feel overly confident entering the season with them starting on the boundary.

While I agree with most of what you have written CaptainWIMM, I think it is reasonable to hope that 1 of 3 things can come true: King is good more or less out of the gates or let's say, by mid-season; House plays at an at-least average level and a little bit above; Randall bounces back from an awful 2016 season to play well.

It's a game of having more than one iron in the fire.

Also, the idea of Josh Jones playing ILB on passing downs is an intriguing one.

I do have a feeling that Ted is waiting to sign another veteran FA, and I rather expect he will be. Dumervil, perhaps another CB. Can Dumervil play in a 3-4? I don't know him well enough to say, but perhaps there are some vets who are soon to be on the chopping block, one of which Ted may nab. I hope so.

 

[pizzle]

Can Dumervil play in a 3-4?

Yes. He's mostly been an OLB-type for the Ravens. Baltimore runs a 3-4.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

While I agree with most of what you have written CaptainWIMM, I think it is reasonable to hope that 1 of 3 things can come true: King is good more or less out of the gates or let's say, by mid-season; House plays at an at-least average level and a little bit above; Randall bounces back from an awful 2016 season to play well.

It's a game of having more than one iron in the fire.

I agree that it's reasonable to expect one of the things you mentioned to happen but I don't like the Packers heavily relying on it though. I would feel way more comfortable about having additional veteran depth on defense.

 

[Dantés]

Dumervil has spent a lot of time in 3-4 defenses over the years, but at this point in his career it's basically irrelevant. Team's are using base defense less and less all the time, and no one is going to use Dumervil in a base set regardless. At this point in his career, if he's anything, he's a sub package wide 9 pass rusher. No matter who signs him, his role will be the same.

This is also what makes bringing him in tricky. They have to believe that his ability as a situational pass rusher is still ++. Because you're not getting anything else out of him. Not special teams, not run defense, not coverage. So if you don't feel like he can really bring it as a situational player, you're not going to make that deal. Versatility is too important as you move down the depth chart.

 

[pizzle]

I guess Ted and Dom think that the pass rush would be fine if the secondary played better. Doesn't make sense to me-how that would actually be the case or how the Packers have handled the pass rush this off-season. Dumervil is literally the only decent vet out there left. It's really not worth even signing anyone else to a vet min deal. If Ted is waiting for someone to get cut, we may get shut out there as well, because it appears that most teams would have already let an EDGE guy go if it was for cap space reasons. Since that position is so coveted by all teams/all schemes, I just don't see a ton of options out there. Ahmad Brooks getting cut and us nabbing him would be a miracle. Which is all the more reason why I don't understand why we haven't snagged Elvis-it just seems too obvious that we need him. Unless Reggie Gilbert is gonna come out of nowhere to be a force or something...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Dumervil has spent a lot of time in 3-4 defenses over the years, but at this point in his career it's basically irrelevant. Team's are using base defense less and less all the time, and no one is going to use Dumervil in a base set regardless. At this point in his career, if he's anything, he's a sub package wide 9 pass rusher. No matter who signs him, his role will be the same.

This is also what makes bringing him in tricky. They have to believe that his ability as a situational pass rusher is still ++. Because you're not getting anything else out of him. Not special teams, not run defense, not coverage. So if you don't feel like he can really bring it as a situational player, you're not going to make that deal. Versatility is too important as you move down the depth chart.

While Dumervil has regressed as a run defender over the past few seasons the Packers lack edge rusher capable of performing at a high level in that area aside of Perry. Therefore he might even present a small upgrade over the other players on the depth chart in that regard.

 

[Dantés]

I guess Ted and Dom think that the pass rush would be fine if the secondary played better. Doesn't make sense to me-how that would actually be the case or how the Packers have handled the pass rush this off-season. Dumervil is literally the only decent vet out there left. It's really not worth even signing anyone else to a vet min deal. If Ted is waiting for someone to get cut, we may get shut out there as well, because it appears that most teams would have already let an EDGE guy go if it was for cap space reasons. Since that position is so coveted by all teams/all schemes, I just don't see a ton of options out there. Ahmad Brooks getting cut and us nabbing him would be a miracle. Which is all the more reason why I don't understand why we haven't snagged Elvis-it just seems too obvious that we need him. Unless Reggie Gilbert is gonna come out of nowhere to be a force or something...

I was rooting for an edge rusher earlier than where we drafted one. Had I been controlling the picks at #61, I would undoubtedly have chosen Jordan Willis there. Now that said, I coveted one out of Watt, Bowser, Willis, Rivers, and Biegel. We got the last one that was on the board at #108. So I was good with how it turned out.

I understand why people are a little nervous about the pass rusher. Perry and Matthews haven't been pillars of health, and behind them we are currently relying on the unknown quantity of youth. But that is how this team operates. They invest via the draft and count on those players taking on bigger roles as they develop. That was the idea of taking Fackrell in the 3rd and now Biegel in the 4th.

But it's misguided to suggest that the Packers have ignore their edge rush. They invested 60M in Nick Perry, far and away the best edge rusher to get close to FA. They weren't going to spend that kind of money on him AND spend more on the position. They spent a 3rd last year on an edge guy and then took Biegel. Unless they want to carry 6 OLB's, the depth chart looks pretty much set. Perry, Matthews, Fackrell, Biegel, and Elliott. Obviously the depth will stand or fall on the youth. That's the MO of this front office. If a veteran was available and they wanted to carry 6, I'd say that might be a good idea. But it's not like they're filling out the position with UDFA's.

 

[Dantés]

While Dumervil has regressed as a run defender over the past few seasons the Packers lack edge rusher capable of performing at a high level in that area aside of Perry. Therefore he might even present a small upgrade over the other players on the depth chart in that regard.

He may, but we don't really know that. We can't assume that the young players behind the starters are static in their level of ability.

I'm not against Dumervil; I'm just saying that they should only sign him if they think he still has his fastball on the edge. Because if he doesn't have that, he's lost his usefulness.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I understand why people are a little nervous about the pass rusher. Perry and Matthews haven't been pillars of health, and behind them we are currently relying on the unknown quantity of youth. But that is how this team operates.

Unfortunately that hasn't worked that well on the defensive side of the ball over the last six years though.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Julius Peppers was lost from the 2016 roster that was criticized for not getting enough pressure on the QB. So what did we lose? 584 snaps, 7.5 sacks, 2 forced fumbles and how many QB rushes or passes knocked down? So what have we replaced that production with? I just don't get this lack of a move by TT. Peppers played roughly 57% of the snaps on defense, a guy like Dumervil could potentially take up that slack. As most of us are concluding, either TT thinks one of the guys currently on the team will improve enough or he is waiting for a roster cut, personally, I am holding my breath.

Edit: Started looking for how many passes Peppers knocked down in 2016, looks like 3. This article is pretty telling about the Packers defense and its lack of production when it comes to knocking down a pass.

https://www.totalpackers.com/2017/05/packers-defensive-line-knocking-passes/

 

[HardRightEdge]

Julius Peppers.... So what have we replaced that production with?

Well, you have a presumably healthy Matthews and Perry not playing with a club on his hand, at least to start out.

After that the picture does get a bit sketchy. Maybe Fackrell has packed on some good weight without losing quickness or maybe Biegel really is an edge rusher and not the ILB I think he is.

At this stage, you'd not want to see the lead dogs miss many games. If they stay healthy you won't miss Peppers. There's a rolling of the dice in this picture.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well, you have a presumably healthy Matthews and Perry not playing with a club on his hand, at least to start out.

After that the picture does get a bit sketchy. Maybe Fackrell has packed on some good weight without losing quickness or maybe Biegel really is an edge rusher and not the ILB I think he is.

At this stage, you'd not want to see the lead dogs miss many games. If they stay healthy you won't miss Peppers. There's a rolling of the dice in this picture.

A big roll of the dice considering Perry and Matthew's past history of injuries and Clay's drop off in production. But you are right, if both Nick and Clay stay healthy, as well as play up to their contracts, the Packers are set at OLB. However, given how much cap the Packers still have, as well as the likelihood of "those stars aligning", I think it's a dangerous dice roll that TT could be making.

2016 Snap Counts:

Matthews: 476 (46%)
Perry: 603 (59%)
Peppers:584 (57%)
Jones: 548 (53%)

 

[Dantés]

Unfortunately that hasn't worked that well on the defensive side of the ball over the last six years though.

Draft and develop has seemed to be effective with Daniels, Perry, Ryan, Clinton-Dix, Burnett, and Hyde in recent years. We will see if the same holds true of Randall, Rollins, Martinez, Fackrell, etc.

I guess what I don't get is why people seem surprised that this FO has allowed Peppers to walk and is planning to replace him with a 3rd rounder entering year 2. I'm not saying they have to like it, but it's pretty well established that this is the Packers' MO.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Draft and develop has seemed to be effective with Daniels, Perry, Ryan, Clinton-Dix, Burnett, and Hyde in recent years. We will see if the same holds true of Randall, Rollins, Martinez, Fackrell, etc.

There's no doubt that the draft and develop philosophy has worked out pretty well with several defensive players over the past few years but overall the unit has mostly struggled.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Draft and develop has seemed to be effective with Daniels, Perry, Ryan, Clinton-Dix, Burnett, and Hyde in recent years. We will see if the same holds true of Randall, Rollins, Martinez, Fackrell, etc.

I guess what I don't get is why people seem surprised that this FO has allowed Peppers to walk and is planning to replace him with a 3rd rounder entering year 2. I'm not saying they have to like it, but it's pretty well established that this is the Packers' MO.

Draft and develop works if the "next man up" is actually ready to assume the position and be productive. For too many years we saw it fail at ILB, S, TE and last year at RB and CB. This year it appears TT is going to try his luck with the D & D theory at OLB, we can only hope it works out similar to how it did at QB, WR and OL.

 

[OldSchool101]

I was rooting for an edge rusher earlier than where we drafted one. Had I been controlling the picks at #61, I would undoubtedly have chosen Jordan Willis there. Now that said, I coveted one out of Watt, Bowser, Willis, Rivers, and Biegel. We got the last one that was on the board at #108. So I was good with how it turned out.

I understand why people are a little nervous about the pass rusher. Perry and Matthews haven't been pillars of health, and behind them we are currently relying on the unknown quantity of youth. But that is how this team operates. They invest via the draft and count on those players taking on bigger roles as they develop. That was the idea of taking Fackrell in the 3rd and now Biegel in the 4th.

But it's misguided to suggest that the Packers have ignore their edge rush. They invested 60M in Nick Perry, far and away the best edge rusher to get close to FA. They weren't going to spend that kind of money on him AND spend more on the position. They spent a 3rd last year on an edge guy and then took Biegel. Unless they want to carry 6 OLB's, the depth chart looks pretty much set. Perry, Matthews, Fackrell, Biegel, and Elliott. Obviously the depth will stand or fall on the youth. That's the MO of this front office.

We're gonna need at least one of those 3 depth players to step it up a notch or two. I'm most interested in seeing how Elliott fares now that he is the veteran pass rusher guy. He has been behind Perry and Peppers which obviously didn't put him in the limelight very often. But that was also a great tandem to study with.