2021 CBs Discussion Thread

[Sunshinepacker]

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I did not mean anyone of his size cannot cover the DK Metcalfs of the world...I meant Asante Samuel can’t. I’m saying he’s not big enough along the perimeter. He plays small and lacks functional strength to play outside.

And if you disagree with the statement that Samuel can’t take on the DK Metcalfs of the world, watch what Notre Dame #88 does to him for 60 minutes.

If the standard for a good corner is shutting down DK, then there are only about 5 good corners in the entire NFL.

 

[RepStar15]

If the standard for a good corner is shutting down DK, then there are only about 5 good corners in the entire NFL.

At this point, I feel you just are not reading what I am writing and making outrageous claims based on nothing. If you watch the Notre Dame tape (at a minimum) and think that Asante Samuels size/football fundamentals do not hinder his ability to be an outside CB in the NFL, fair- you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. If you continue to make ridiculous generalizations based on my specific reasons why Asante Samuels is not an outside CB in the NFL, even more specifically in the packers defense, it leads me to believe you truly have no idea what you are talking about at all. If you are an Asante Samuel fan, please tell me why I am wrong, show me the tape where he plays for 60 minutes where his functional strength is not a problem and we can have a real discussion.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

At this point, I feel you just are not reading what I am writing and making outrageous claims based on nothing. If you watch the Notre Dame tape (at a minimum) and think that Asante Samuels size/football fundamentals do not hinder his ability to be an outside CB in the NFL, fair- you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. If you continue to make ridiculous generalizations based on my specific reasons why Asante Samuels is not an outside CB in the NFL, even more specifically in the packers defense, it leads me to believe you truly have no idea what you are talking about at all. If you are an Asante Samuel fan, please tell me why I am wrong, show me the tape where he plays for 60 minutes where his functional strength is not a problem and we can have a real discussion.

He is a very fluid athlete with great hips so he can turn and run on the outside if called to do so. He has good footwork, reads and reacts to routes very well, backpedals well, closes quickly when he needs to, has decent press skills (though his limited strength will be a negative against some outside receivers), and has very good speed for a corner. Yes, he could be a very good slot corner in the NFL but there is nothing about him, except perhaps an inability to locate the ball well (which would affect him in the slot as well) that says he CAN'T be an outside corner.

Specific enough? I get that he's slightly undersized but that doesn't mean he CANNOT be an outside corner. I'd prefer a very good outside corner that's undersized to a physical marvel that can't cover (I've had enough of Kevin King thank you). I also try to base my projections of a player on more than one bad game of tape. Pretty much every player is going to have a game where they look bad in college.

 

[tynimiller]

So Cornerbacks have probably been what I've watched and studied the most this draft go around - starting to rival the WR watching of 2020....there is one guy that I was not initially high on that I'm about to come nearly 180 on.

Ifeatu Melifonwu out of Syracus.

He is closer to 6'3'' than he is 6'2'' and weighs a good 210-215 depending where you read. He unlike many is at a frame I don't think will need to add some like many others, even the top names at CB. His wingspan stretches over 80 inches to boot as well.

His frame has no business being as quick hipped and fluid as he continually exhibits. His speed is much better than his brother Obi who didn't stay at Corner due to that being a small deficiency of his, Iffy is much better equipped there and I fully expect he will stay at corner.

A guy I was not a fan of anything before the 3rd round, see him as a true value IMO anywhere in the 2nd round as I believe his skillset rivals in some facets any CB in this draft - he may just need a touch more polishing than some of the top tier.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

So Cornerbacks have probably been what I've watched and studied the most this draft go around - starting to rival the WR watching of 2020....there is one guy that I was not initially high on that I'm about to come nearly 180 on.

Ifeatu Melifonwu out of Syracus.

He is closer to 6'3'' than he is 6'2'' and weighs a good 210-215 depending where you read. He unlike many is at a frame I don't think will need to add some like many others, even the top names at CB. His wingspan stretches over 80 inches to boot as well.

His frame has no business being as quick hipped and fluid as he continually exhibits. His speed is much better than his brother Obi who didn't stay at Corner due to that being a small deficiency of his, Iffy is much better equipped there and I fully expect he will stay at corner.

A guy I was not a fan of anything before the 3rd round, see him as a true value IMO anywhere in the 2nd round as I believe his skillset rivals in some facets any CB in this draft - he may just need a touch more polishing than some of the top tier.

He's a marvelous athlete and he'll certainly be worth a 2nd-3rd pick if the coaches believe they can get him to play like he's 6'3", 210lbs. His movement skills at his size are great but he doesn't show the physicality you'd expect. He doesn't have great instincts for zone and he only played 183 snaps of press coverage in the last 2 years (according to PFF). If the coaches think they can convince him to be more physical, then he has the potential to be an elite corner.

 

[tynimiller]

He's a marvelous athlete and he'll certainly be worth a 2nd-3rd pick if the coaches believe they can get him to play like he's 6'3", 210lbs. His movement skills at his size are great but he doesn't show the physicality you'd expect. He doesn't have great instincts for zone and he only played 183 snaps of press coverage in the last 2 years (according to PFF). If the coaches think they can convince him to be more physical, then he has the potential to be an elite corner.

Honestly tier down his counterpart Trill Williams out of Syracuse is a guy I like if we draft or the board falls to other positions first couple picks...he exemplifies some of the same things Ifeatu does, but struggles also at similar things as you described - just needs a touch more polish and coach up than Ifeatu.

 

[GleefulGary]

Did I ever say a 5’10, 185lb corner is not capable of being a good outside corner?

“Given his height, I do not see much upside to him as an outside CB”

That’s a direct quote from you.

Asante Samuel is not as good as Jaire, but they play fairly similar.

I’d have to disagree with you on Samuel’s tackling. I’ve seen him on multiple occasions be an aggressive tackler on the outside of the field. Does he need to gain some functional strength? Yes, just like every CB coming into the league. Jaire did too. I can find plays where he got ran over in college.

People like to act like Jaire was a sure fire stud, but I have strong memories of being one of his few supporters here during the draft. “He’s too small! He can’t stay healthy!” “He can’t cover bigger receivers!” Etc, etc, etc. Almost everybody preferred Josh Jackson. Funny how people act the opposite now.

Samuel Jr is not a perfect CB, but he’s a good one. Better in zone than man, he’s coming from a team with an awful culture, yet he still did well. He struggled with some bigger WR’s, and Jaire did too. I would not hesitate to add a CB like Samuel. Don’t worry about who he can’t cover. Shoot, not many can cover a guy like Metcalf well. Passing up on him for a bigger CB just bc of size is how you end up with another Kevin King.

 

[tynimiller]

“Given his height, I do not see much upside to him as an outside CB”

That’s a direct quote from you.

Asante Samuel is not as good as Jaire, but they play fairly similar.

I’d have to disagree with you on Samuel’s tackling. I’ve seen him on multiple occasions be an aggressive tackler on the outside of the field. Does he need to gain some functional strength? Yes, just like every CB coming into the league. Jaire did too. I can find plays where he got ran over in college.

People like to act like Jaire was a sure fire stud, but I have strong memories of being one of his few supporters here during the draft. “He’s too small! He can’t stay healthy!” “He can’t cover bigger receivers!” Etc, etc, etc. Almost everybody preferred Josh Jackson. Funny how people act the opposite now.

Samuel Jr is not a perfect CB, but he’s a good one. Better in zone than man, he’s coming from a team with an awful culture, yet he still did well. He struggled with some bigger WR’s, and Jaire did too. I would not hesitate to add a CB like Samuel. Don’t worry about who he can’t cover. Shoot, not many can cover a guy like Metcalf well. Passing up on him for a bigger CB just bc of size is how you end up with another Kevin King.

I didn't dislike Jaire but I will admit I was one not nearly as big of a fan as you were. It is true, everyone pretends Jaire was a sure thing in everyone's mind...simply not true.

 

[Poppa San]

I didn't dislike Jaire but I will admit I was one not nearly as big of a fan as you were. It is true, everyone pretends Jaire was a sure thing in everyone's mind...simply not true.

https://www.packerforum.com/threads/official-2018-1st-round-pick-jaire-alexander.79176/

 

[RepStar15]

“Given his height, I do not see much upside to him as an outside CB”

That’s a direct quote from you.

Asante Samuel is not as good as Jaire, but they play fairly similar.

I’d have to disagree with you on Samuel’s tackling. I’ve seen him on multiple occasions be an aggressive tackler on the outside of the field. Does he need to gain some functional strength? Yes, just like every CB coming into the league. Jaire did too. I can find plays where he got ran over in college.

People like to act like Jaire was a sure fire stud, but I have strong memories of being one of his few supporters here during the draft. “He’s too small! He can’t stay healthy!” “He can’t cover bigger receivers!” Etc, etc, etc. Almost everybody preferred Josh Jackson. Funny how people act the opposite now.

Samuel Jr is not a perfect CB, but he’s a good one. Better in zone than man, he’s coming from a team with an awful culture, yet he still did well. He struggled with some bigger WR’s, and Jaire did too. I would not hesitate to add a CB like Samuel. Don’t worry about who he can’t cover. Shoot, not many can cover a guy like Metcalf well. Passing up on him for a bigger CB just bc of size is how you end up with another Kevin King.

“Given his height, I do not see much upside to him as an outside CB” was said after I listed my concerns with his ability to tackle in open field. Jaire never had tackling concerns in college. So I paired that, with his lack of functional strength due to his height. I never said a 5’10 180lb CB cannot be an effective outside CB in the NFL. I just said I don’t think this one will be. Maybe I am wrong and he is the next JA. I just don’t see it and think folks are overlooking some red flags that jump out on tape or are just watching his highlight reels.

 

[GleefulGary]

At this point, I feel you just are not reading what I am writing and making outrageous claims based on nothing. If you watch the Notre Dame tape (at a minimum) and think that Asante Samuels size/football fundamentals do not hinder his ability to be an outside CB in the NFL, fair- you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. If you continue to make ridiculous generalizations based on my specific reasons why Asante Samuels is not an outside CB in the NFL, even more specifically in the packers defense, it leads me to believe you truly have no idea what you are talking about at all. If you are an Asante Samuel fan, please tell me why I am wrong, show me the tape where he plays for 60 minutes where his functional strength is not a problem and we can have a real discussion.

You wanna link me to the Notre Dame game?

And is it All-22?

If you have any All-22 tape of Samuel, I'd love to watch it. Pretty hard to have a definite stance on a DB without it, imo.

As I'll say again on his tackling, his willingness is there. That's key. His technique and strength need to improve, but that's not uncommon! If he's willing, the other stuff will come.

 

[GreenReign]

Honestly tier down his counterpart Trill Williams out of Syracuse is a guy I like if we draft or the board falls to other positions first couple picks...he exemplifies some of the same things Ifeatu does, but struggles also at similar things as you described - just needs a touch more polish and coach up than Ifeatu.

Damn Syracuse certainly had a loaded secondary, between Molifonwu, Williams, and the best player of the bunch is Andre Cisco, who to me is the best safety in this class. However, people have him pegged for the 2nd round. Kid had 13 picks in 2 seasons and runs a 4.35. I actually wouldn't mind taking Molifonwu in round 1, and Cisco round 2, since we use a ton of 3 safety sets, would be a huge upgrade over Raven Green as that dime LB, and could cover TE's. Would go a long way to suring up our secondary. Cisco missed all but one game this season otherwise he'd have something like 18 picks in his career. This defense needs more playmakers.

 

[tynimiller]

Damn Syracuse certainly had a loaded secondary, between Molifonwu, Williams, and the best player of the bunch is Andre Cisco, who to me is the best safety in this class. However, people have him pegged for the 2nd round. Kid had 13 picks in 2 seasons and runs a 4.35. I actually wouldn't mind taking Molifonwu in round 1, and Cisco round 2, since we use a ton of 3 safety sets, would be a huge upgrade over Raven Green as that dime LB, and could cover TE's. Would go a long way to suring up our secondary. Cisco missed all but one game this season otherwise he'd have something like 18 picks in his career. This defense needs more playmakers.

Yes, all three viably could become solid NFL contributors to their teams. Cisco is a ball hawk, I worry if he can provide substance elsewhere in his game, but dear lord that nack cannot be taught.

 

[GreenReign]

Yes, all three viably could become solid NFL contributors to their teams. Cisco is a ball hawk, I worry if he can provide substance elsewhere in his game, but dear lord that nack cannot be taught.

I absolutely hate making this comparison due to obvious issues that have nothing to do with football, but Cisco kind of reminds me of Darren Sharper in the way he plays.

 

[GleefulGary]

Damn Syracuse certainly had a loaded secondary, between Molifonwu, Williams, and the best player of the bunch is Andre Cisco, who to me is the best safety in this class. However, people have him pegged for the 2nd round. Kid had 13 picks in 2 seasons and runs a 4.35. I actually wouldn't mind taking Molifonwu in round 1, and Cisco round 2, since we use a ton of 3 safety sets, would be a huge upgrade over Raven Green as that dime LB, and could cover TE's. Would go a long way to suring up our secondary. Cisco missed all but one game this season otherwise he'd have something like 18 picks in his career. This defense needs more playmakers.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, because I haven’t followed Cisco at all, but that 40 time seems suspect to me. Cisco ran a verified 4.61 40 coming out of high school at 180ish pounds. To think he gained 20 lbs and lost 3 tenths off his 40 time is unrealistic. Especially since he’s coming from a place like IMG where they aren’t lacking for qualified training. Just based on that alone, I’d guess he’s in the 4.50-4.55 range, which is still fast enough for a safety. Sub 4.4 40’s are rare.

That reminds me. We’ll probably see faster 40’s this year bc of no combine. Pro days 40’s are generally a tenth faster than the combine. I’ve even seen some scouts say they’ve re-measured the 40 yards and it’s really 39.5 yards or something like that. Be skeptical when it comes to the pro day results.

 

[RepStar15]

You wanna link me to the Notre Dame game?

And is it All-22?

If you have any All-22 tape of Samuel, I'd love to watch it. Pretty hard to have a definite stance on a DB without it, imo.

As I'll say again on his tackling, his willingness is there. That's key. His technique and strength need to improve, but that's not uncommon! If he's willing, the other stuff will come.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

I just rewatch games paying attention to draft prospects and look back at my notes from the games I watched in season.

 

[GleefulGary]

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

I just rewatch games paying attention to draft prospects and look back at my notes from the games I watched in season.

Thanks! I’ll watch some later.

At first glance, I can tell it’s not All-22 which is going to make it hard to evaluate DB play.

 

[RepStar15]

Thanks! I’ll watch some later.

At first glance, I can tell it’s not All-22 which is going to make it hard to evaluate DB play.

Here is a game I did not watch against Pitt, but took a look at last night.
https://www.bigblueview.com/2021/2/...te-samuel-jr-cb-fsu-scouting-report-ny-giants

 

[tynimiller]

I’m not saying you’re wrong, because I haven’t followed Cisco at all, but that 40 time seems suspect to me. Cisco ran a verified 4.61 40 coming out of high school at 180ish pounds. To think he gained 20 lbs and lost 3 tenths off his 40 time is unrealistic. Especially since he’s coming from a place like IMG where they aren’t lacking for qualified training. Just based on that alone, I’d guess he’s in the 4.50-4.55 range, which is still fast enough for a safety. Sub 4.4 40’s are rare.

That reminds me. We’ll probably see faster 40’s this year bc of no combine. Pro days 40’s are generally a tenth faster than the combine. I’ve even seen some scouts say they’ve re-measured the 40 yards and it’s really 39.5 yards or something like that. Be skeptical when it comes to the pro day results.

This is my main concern this year with taking measurables...well times actually. Measurables for the most part (height, weight, length...) all are tougher to "affect" than times.

I suspect like you we will see more claimed sub 4.4 times than we ever have.

 

[GleefulGary]

This is my main concern this year with taking measurables...well times actually. Measurables for the most part (height, weight, length...) all are tougher to "affect" than times.

I suspect like you we will see more claimed sub 4.4 times than we ever have.

You’d be surprised at the length and whatnot. There’s discrepancies between the SR Bowl and the Combine. Will imagine there will be more at the pro days. Combine that with that not all teams will be able to travel to places, and you just can’t keep a consistent standard across the board. Scout A might have a quicker trigger finger than Scout B. They might share that information, but they’ll have to figure out the discrepancies.

We’ll see how well the Packers scout this draft, I think.

 

[RepStar15]

The more tape I see on Greg Newsome, the more I like him. He seems aggressive at the point of attack, plays patient and smart in zone and does not seem to have a problem sticking with WRs. I think he gets hung up on blocks a bit, but not a reg flag at all. I wish there was a combine to see how he matches up against the other CBs, but certainly a guy who is growing on me.

 

[GleefulGary]

Eric Crocker has Samuel Jr as CB4 right now.

I don’t argue with Crocker. That’s my take, lol


/ he hasn’t watched Newsome yet. And he’s good.

 

[tynimiller]

Eric Crocker has Samuel Jr as CB4 right now.

I don’t argue with Crocker. That’s my take, lol


/ he hasn’t watched Newsome yet. And he’s good.

I was curious what Crocker thoughts were as well. I no longer think Samuel will be an option outside of a trade up. Newsome, Stokes, Campbell are the top three outside guys I sense will be in play at 29 if we stay there.

 

[tynimiller]

Crocker broke down Kelvin Joseph quite a bit recently now too....his only issue he says is a big concern is eye discipline.

 

[RepStar15]

Eric Crocker has Samuel Jr as CB4 right now.

I don’t argue with Crocker. That’s my take, lol


/ he hasn’t watched Newsome yet. And he’s good.

Crocker also noted that more often than not FSU slid Samuel inside to the nickel when in the red zone.