2021 CBs Discussion Thread

[Half Empty]

What's the personal cost if you're wrong?

 

[tynimiller]

What's the personal cost if you're wrong?

My pride takes a serious hit and I wash my sorrows in a couple fingers of bourbon.


Here's to Mills failing me LOL

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Like I've been doing in my mocks, we have a way to replace King, Jackson, and Sullivan if we draft 3 CBs between Day 2 and 3. I'd prefer if the new DC has a DB background, because I want a second look, specifically on Jackson and Hollman, with what we have there. If the new DC would just move Jackson to FS and drop Redmond, that's an upgrade right there and we created some cap space. I dunno why Hollman has rarely seen the field but I don't think he's been evaluated/coached correctly under Pettine.

Day 3 guys like Carter, Jobe, Mukuamu, Taylor, Vincent Jr, and Wilson I think could all add some serious quality to this position group and it wouldn't surprise me if Gute prioritized other positions in the first 2 days that might not be as deep.

 

[tynimiller]

Like I've been doing in my mocks, we have a way to replace King, Jackson, and Sullivan if we draft 3 CBs between Day 2 and 3. I'd prefer if the new DC has a DB background, because I want a second look, specifically on Jackson and Hollman, with what we have there. If the new DC would just move Jackson to FS and drop Redmond, that's an upgrade right there and we created some cap space. I dunno why Hollman has rarely seen the field but I don't think he's been evaluated/coached correctly under Pettine.

Day 3 guys like Carter, Jobe, Mukuamu, Taylor, Vincent Jr, and Wilson I think could all add some serious quality to this position group and it wouldn't surprise me if Gute prioritized other positions in the first 2 days that might not be as deep.

Don't you bring up Day 2 and Day 3 without listing my boy Mills once!

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Meh, he may have some skill....

 

[GleefulGary]

I’m starting to really like Tyson Campbell. Has every physical tool you could want in a CB.

 

[tynimiller]

I’m starting to really like Tyson Campbell. Has every physical tool you could want in a CB.

The raw skillset is there and is phenomenal, the question is if it all clicks and the positioning side of things clicks as well. Don't kill me for saying it reminds me of Randall...if we pick him I just pray it clicks unlike it didn't for Randall

 

[GleefulGary]

The raw skillset is there and is phenomenal, the question is if it all clicks and the positioning side of things clicks as well. Don't kill me for saying it reminds me of Randall...if we pick him I just pray it clicks unlike it didn't for Randall

I don’t see how they’re remotely comparable.

 

[tynimiller]

I don’t see how they’re remotely comparable.

Both physically gifted, athleticism is not the issue if they don't pan out. It was the best green bay comp of late I could come up with. I believe he is more refined for sure than Randall was out of college but I stand by them being comparable in that sense

 

[GleefulGary]

Both physically gifted, athleticism is not the issue if they don't pan out. It was the best green bay comp of late I could come up with. I believe he is more refined for sure than Randall was out of college but I stand by them being comparable in that sense

Yeah, I still don’t agree.

Randall was a good athlete. Campbell is darn near elite. They’re on different levels.

Randall was a head case that played safety in college. Campbell is a solid guy that has played CB since he was young.

Campbell doesn’t have any attitude issues, he just may lack natural instincts with the ball in the air. Just very different situations.

 

[tynimiller]

Yeah, I still don’t agree.

Randall was a good athlete. Campbell is darn near elite. They’re on different levels.

Randall was a head case that played safety in college. Campbell is a solid guy that has played CB since he was young.

Campbell doesn’t have any attitude issues, he just may lack natural instincts with the ball in the air. Just very different situations.

There just wasn't another guy I knew majority of GB fans would know is all. As you know we don't disagree at all, he's a higher level than Randall for sure, with zero mental issue flags.

 

[RepStar15]

This is the thread I have been waiting to post on. I know most people will disagree, but I do not like this years CB draft class, at all. Outside of the top 3 (Farley, Surtain and Horn), I do not see a true CB2 that provides an upgrade to Kevin King in 2021. Can they develop into a better player than King? Certainly after a year or two. But none of these guys will make us comfortable on 4th and 11 with 10 seconds left of the first half, the ball on the 50 in the NFC championship game.

 

[tynimiller]

This is the thread I have been waiting to post on. I know most people will disagree, but I do not like this years CB draft class, at all. Outside of the top 3 (Farley, Surtain and Horn), I do not see a true CB2 that provides an upgrade to Kevin King in 2021. Can they develop into a better player than King? Certainly after a year or two. But none of these guys will make us comfortable on 4th and 11 with 10 seconds left of the first half, the ball on the 50 in the NFC championship game.

You already posted similar in this very thread LOL:

The more I study the CB prospects in the draft, the more I hope that the Packers have their Week 1 starting CB2 on the roster OR they plan on moving up in the draft. After the top 3 CBs, none of the prospects come even close to an upgrade to Kevin King.

I responded with the following, which has for the most part remained unchanged as I've further follow my own research rabbit holes into the class:

Tier 1 Guys that are upgrades to King out the gate:
Surtain
Farley
Horn

Tier 2 Guys that appear to have the tools and abilities to possibly be an upgrade right out the gate:
Stokes
Campbell
Samuel Jr

Tier 3 Guys that I feel will be equivalent or close out the gate which most likely become an upgrade by end of their rookie season or 2nd year:
Newsome
Adebo

Tier 4 Guys I really like but would be slight downgrade, but like Tier 3 I suspect will do very well in growth and could become a true #2:
Keith Taylor
Melifonwu
Ambry Thomas
Rodarius Williams - His surprise jabs are deadly mixed with his fluid hips

Tier 5 Guys I like that many will arguably say are mid/late round sleepers:
Bryan Mills-dude I feel is gonna be special
Olijah Griffin
Tre Norwood

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Whoever they pick, if Gute can't find a guy that can be an effective starter (either outside or slot) as a rookie, Packers defense is going to look like butt next season. I don't think they'll have the cap room to find two decent corners in free agency.

 

[RepStar15]

You already posted similar in this very thread LOL:



I responded with the following, which has for the most part remained unchanged as I've further follow my own research rabbit holes into the class:

Tier 1 Guys that are upgrades to King out the gate:
Surtain
Farley
Horn

Tier 2 Guys that appear to have the tools and abilities to possibly be an upgrade right out the gate:
Stokes
Campbell
Samuel Jr

Tier 3 Guys that I feel will be equivalent or close out the gate which most likely become an upgrade by end of their rookie season or 2nd year:
Newsome
Adebo

Tier 4 Guys I really like but would be slight downgrade, but like Tier 3 I suspect will do very well in growth and could become a true #2:
Keith Taylor
Melifonwu
Ambry Thomas
Rodarius Williams - His surprise jabs are deadly mixed with his fluid hips

Tier 5 Guys I like that many will arguably say are mid/late round sleepers:
Bryan Mills-dude I feel is gonna be special
Olijah Griffin
Tre Norwood

Sorry, there are so many dang threads in this forum I cannot keep anything straight anymore.

Asante Samuel, I would love to see in the slot. He simply is not big enough along the perimeter to cover the DK Metcalfs of the league. I have all the trust in Jaire to be able to shut out a DK Metcalf, but then Tyler Lockett will absolutely destroy us in the middle. With a longer bodied guy, you can put them on Metcalf and have a double over the top. Even if they shut Metcalf down to 50% of his catches, you know the dog will hold Lockett to -10 yards. This obviously expands beyound Metcalf/Lockett to any team with a massive WR.

I like Stokes, Campbell is meh, I like Newsome, I really like Adebo...but at this point we cannot even really consider they are even close to an upgrade to Kevin King at this point. Campbell reminds me a lot of Josh Jackson. There simply is not enough tape in Newsome, what did he play in 15 games? Paulson Adebo is by far the best out of these guys, but what is his ceiling? He is a smart player, but is not the greatest tackler. Is he better than King? Lets not forget that King was a tackling dog in college. Probably had more college tackles than the four of them combined. Tackling in college (especially the PAC-12) is a very different beast than tackling in the NFL.

Another guy I would move up in my board is Ifeatu Melifonwu. But again, what is the ceiling there? Then thinking about to the Notre Dame game, watching Javon McKinley absolutely destroy him was a scary thought.

I have never been a huge Kevin King fan, but I will admit I was ALL IN for Josh Jackson and we know how that turned out. At the end of the day, we need to be careful about who we think will be better than him. There is a developmental process that needs to occur with ALL of these CBs. I would be careful about saying any tier 2-4 will be an upgrade by their rookie seasons, hell even tier 1 guys will be an immediate upgrade. Think about how long it took Marlon Humphrey to develop into the player he is today. While guys like Jamel Dean do exist and can be found in the mid rounds and be immediate day 1 starters, they are few and far between.

 

[tynimiller]

We must remember King wasn't a graded 1st rounder for most, nor was he on mine. I liked him, and saw a solid #2 CB as his ceiling. Personally I think there are a half dozen or so guys that are as good as King was when we drafted him realistically we have a shot at sitting at #29.

Also to be clear as maybe you just misread, I have only 3 CBs that I feel are 100% locks to be better and an upgrade out the gate (Surtain, Farley, Horn)...and only 3 others I feel fairly confident that if they stay healthy can be an upgrade by the end of their rookie or beginning of their second season (Stokes, Campbell, Samuel) and then only 2 others that I feel have that same chance, but are more of a long shot (Newsome, Adebo) and will need more time to reach that.

Also to a point height is a factor I consider, but you disagreed with yourself in bringing up the DK Metcalf thing...you say Samuel simply isn't big enough to cover DK....but then state Jaire can....Jaire can because of his skillset irregardless of his height. Samuel and Jaire are nearly identical coming out of college size wise, with Jaire now vs Samuel now having a few more pounds. I don't believe Samuel will be a Jaire level guy, but merely expressing how that section of your post confused me.

Melifonwu is nice, and honestly is closer to being on my Tier 3 than any of those other Tier 4 guys on my personal rankings.

 

[GleefulGary]

Campbell and Josh Jackson couldn’t be more different as prospects.

 

[tynimiller]

@Sunshinepacker I appreciate hearing all takes, and when I see a disagreement to a post that is quite extensive in sharing thoughts I always look forward to hearing their take of disagreement?

What was it about Kyra's post you disagreed with specifically if you don't mind?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

@Sunshinepacker I appreciate hearing all takes, and when I see a disagreement to a post that is quite extensive in sharing thoughts I always look forward to hearing their take of disagreement?

What was it about Kyra's post you disagreed with specifically if you don't mind?

The claim that Asante Samuel isn't big enough to cover Metcalf.

 

[tynimiller]

The claim that Asante Samuel isn't big enough to cover Metcalf.

Gotcha, we agree there.

 

[RepStar15]

We must remember King wasn't a graded 1st rounder for most, nor was he on mine. I liked him, and saw a solid #2 CB as his ceiling. Personally I think there are a half dozen or so guys that are as good as King was when we drafted him realistically we have a shot at sitting at #29.

Also to be clear as maybe you just misread, I have only 3 CBs that I feel are 100% locks to be better and an upgrade out the gate (Surtain, Farley, Horn)...and only 3 others I feel fairly confident that if they stay healthy can be an upgrade by the end of their rookie or beginning of their second season (Stokes, Campbell, Samuel) and then only 2 others that I feel have that same chance, but are more of a long shot (Newsome, Adebo) and will need more time to reach that.

Also to a point height is a factor I consider, but you disagreed with yourself in bringing up the DK Metcalf thing...you say Samuel simply isn't big enough to cover DK....but then state Jaire can....Jaire can because of his skillset irregardless of his height. Samuel and Jaire are nearly identical coming out of college size wise, with Jaire now vs Samuel now having a few more pounds. I don't believe Samuel will be a Jaire level guy, but merely expressing how that section of your post confused me.

Melifonwu is nice, and honestly is closer to being on my Tier 3 than any of those other Tier 4 guys on my personal rankings.

@Sunshinepacker
Jaire and Samuel may be similar sizes, but they in no way mirror each other’s play styles. Samuel has a ton of fundamental issues you would not want to even consider as an outside CB in the NFL at this point in time...let alone as a starting CB2 in 2021. Do not get me wrong, I would not mind having him in the slot and think he could thrive as a nickle back. If he had more length, those fundamental issues are immediately less glaring. Coming out of Louisville Jaire was a beast. He was a ball hawk, but mostly his tackling skills jumped off the tape. Samuel struggles to bring college WR and RBs to the ground and often needed help to do so. NFL RBs like Barkley and WRs like Metcalf will be an absolute nightmare for him.

Working from the slot he would almost always have safety help, while an outside CB needs to be able to control the perimeter. From what I have seen, Samuel is not a guy I feel comfortable with on the outside. Given his height, I really do not see much upside to him as an outside CB.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

@Sunshinepacker
Jaire and Samuel may be similar sizes, but they in no way mirror each other’s play styles. Samuel has a ton of fundamental issues you would not want to even consider as an outside CB in the NFL at this point in time...let alone as a starting CB2 in 2021. Do not get me wrong, I would not mind having him in the slot and think he could thrive as a nickle back. If he had more length, those fundamental issues are immediately less glaring. Coming out of Louisville Jaire was a beast. He was a ball hawk, but mostly his tackling skills jumped off the tape. Samuel struggles to bring college WR and RBs to the ground and often needed help to do so. NFL RBs like Barkley and WRs like Metcalf will be an absolute nightmare for him.

Working from the slot he would almost always have safety help, while an outside CB needs to be able to control the perimeter. From what I have seen, Samuel is not a guy I feel comfortable with on the outside. Given his height, I really do not see much upside to him as an outside CB.

Samuel may or may not become a good corner in the NFL, but a 5'10", 185lb corner is fully capable of being a good outside corner.

 

[RepStar15]

Samuel may or may not become a good corner in the NFL, but a 5'10", 185lb corner is fully capable of being a good outside corner.

Did I ever say a 5’10, 185lb corner is not capable of being a good outside corner?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Did I ever say a 5’10, 185lb corner is not capable of being a good outside corner?

"Asante Samuel, I would love to see in the slot. He simply is not big enough along the perimeter to cover the DK Metcalfs of the league".

That is the statement I was responding to.

 

[RepStar15]

"Asante Samuel, I would love to see in the slot. He simply is not big enough along the perimeter to cover the DK Metcalfs of the league".

That is the statement I was responding to.

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I did not mean anyone of his size cannot cover the DK Metcalfs of the world...I meant Asante Samuel can’t. I’m saying he’s not big enough along the perimeter. He plays small and lacks functional strength to play outside.

And if you disagree with the statement that Samuel can’t take on the DK Metcalfs of the world, watch what Notre Dame #88 does to him for 60 minutes.