Woodson marked man by opposing QBs

[bozz_2006]

i think it's "wilcot ******". most of you don't know this but his last name is ACTUALLY ******... he's French.

 

[tromadz]

I thought that sounded french

 

[porky88]

Porky----You act as if his 'rust' has a residual effect. You use 2001 as your starting point, saying that since he has been injured each year, he's had additional layers of rust accumulating since then, diminishing his value at corner, correct?

Do you know how stupid that sounds? You make it seem like he is a shadow of his former self, like a damn #3 corner at best, a literal rusty statue out there, for at least the first few games. You also act like it is all his fault that he has very little interceptions. There is SO much more involved at the cornerback/free safety position than attaining interceptions...not to mention the fact that the Raiders' defensive schemes have netted them a grand total of FIVE last year and NINE in 2004. Do you know how horrible that is? And what's worse, Woodson has 2 of those 14 picks after having missed over 13 games.

First your not going to see any points I make despite them all being true to the point, do to the fact that Woodson is your boy.

For the first few games I expect Woodson to go through growing pains. It happens with players coming off an injury. He played in just over 65% of his regular season games the last 4 years. That is a very low amount. He's only had 19 pass deflections in the last 4 years as well. He’s made very few big plays in the past 4 years due to not being in the lineup. There is a big difference in mini camp, training camp, pre season (off season pretty much) than the regular season. At this point, he's not the player he was in 2000. It will take time for him to reach that form again. Can he do it? Yes I think he can and most do. It'll take a little time for him to get his groove back though. First few weeks. That's what this guy is saying and that's what most inside the NFL expect. I’m not talking week 1-10. I’m talking, around week 3 or 4 he should start to feel it again, especially after he makes his first big play.

I never said he's a #3. Just because I don't expect him to be this all world shut down CB (which doesn't exist in the NFL) doesn't mean he's not a good player. In fact if you read my post you'd see I stated he is a good player. There was no need for the comment of me "acting" like he's a #3. I do think he's a solid #2. If he stays healthy, one of the better #2's in the NFL. Harris and him have the potential to be very strong. They have the potential to be as good if not better than the Patrick Surtain and Sam Madison combo in Miami in the early 00's.

By the way let's go all day. All you bring is bias towards one of your favorite players thinking he can do everything from receiver to one of the best players in the league. Any player coming off the playing time he has had will show rust in their game early on. Woodson will as well. That’s the point.

 

[~TheJoker~]

First your not going to see any points I make despite them all being true to the point, do to the fact that Woodson is your boy..

Wrong. I am not a fan with blinding loyalty. I actually know many of his faults, stuff y'all don't even know yet. If you'd like to know, just ask.

For the first few games I expect Woodson to go through growing pains. It happens with players coming off an injury. He played in just over 65% of his regular season games the last 4 years. That is a very low amount. He's only had 19 pass deflections in the last 4 years as well..

Okay, did you just complain about the time he's missed over the years, then in the same breath complain about his lack of pass deflections? Wouldn't you have to be playing to get more PDs? Add that extra 35%, which nets around 10 more PDs, and you wouldn't be complaining. At least stay constant when you're bagging the guy.

He’s made very few big plays in the past 4 years due to not being in the lineup..

Wow, you're spot on once again. Guess what, Chief? I haven't made any big plays for the Raiders in the past 4 years either!! Reason? I'm not in the lineup

There is a big difference in mini camp, training camp, pre season (off season pretty much) than the regular season..

Absolutely agree.

At this point, he's not the player he was in 2000. It will take time for him to reach that form again..

How in God's name can you make a statement like that. That is the absolute equivalent of my saying he is better this year then he was in 2000. Null and void.

Can he do it? Yes I think he can and most do. It'll take a little time for him to get his groove back though. First few weeks. That's what this guy is saying and that's what most inside the NFL expect. I’m not talking week 1-10. I’m talking, around week 3 or 4 he should start to feel it again, especially after he makes his first big play..

Obviously you take the safe routes in life. You could say that about anybody in the league, injured or not. "Takes a while to get your balance", "Give him a few weeks and his arm will come back around", or "Three weeks and those legs will be fresh again." I have yet to hear a rational and valid reason as to why Woodson can not perform as a solid #1 or #2 cornerback in Week 1.

I never said he's a #3. Just because I don't expect him to be this all world shut down CB (which doesn't exist in the NFL) doesn't mean he's not a good player. In fact if you read my post you'd see I stated he is a good player. There was no need for the comment of me "acting" like he's a #3. I do think he's a solid #2. If he stays healthy, one of the better #2's in the NFL. Harris and him have the potential to be very strong. They have the potential to be as good if not better than the Patrick Surtain and Sam Madison combo in Miami in the early 00's.

By the way let's go all day. All you bring is bias towards one of your favorite players thinking he can do everything from receiver to one of the best players in the league. Any player coming off the playing time he has had will show rust in their game early on. Woodson will as well. That’s the point.

I'm here, billy badass. I'll pop open a Sam Adams and retaliate anything you have to say to me. I give credit where it's due, while you call me nothing but biased, having known me for...what, 12 posts over two weeks? As for going all day, you have one minicamp to tell me about Woodson, I have the last 11 years of his collegiate and professional career. Ball's in your court.

 

[tromadz]

First your not going to see any points I make despite them all being true to the point, do to the fact that Woodson is your boy..

Wrong. I am not a fan with blinding loyalty. I actually know many of his faults, stuff y'all don't even know yet. If you'd like to know, just ask.

what are his faults? I like to know a guys weakness.

 

[~TheJoker~]

First your not going to see any points I make despite them all being true to the point, do to the fact that Woodson is your boy..

Wrong. I am not a fan with blinding loyalty. I actually know many of his faults, stuff y'all don't even know yet. If you'd like to know, just ask.

what are his faults? I like to know a guys weakness.

1 - He is not a verbal leader. He leads by example, but he won't be barking out instructions out there. He stays to himself.

2 - On third and long, QBs sometimes pick on him becuz of his aggressive nature. The 5 yard chuck rule hurt many bump n run corners, and as Wood is one of the biggest and strongest corners, this hurt his gameplay. Any touching past 5 yards and the refs call it---especially when playing for the Silver and Black.

3 - He sometimes bites on play action/double moves. I attribute this to his ridiculous run support. Sometimes he wants to eat that running back so badly, his man will get by him for a quick 15 yarder.

4 - He gets bored out there and it forces him to cheat over and out of his position to help other teammates missing assignments. Hopefully this will change with Al Harris in the mix, as QBs have to pick their poison. When he had another legitimate threat at corner with Eric Allen, those years his numbers were easily improved. Can't do much if nobody throws your way. Just ask Chris McAlister.

 

[tromadz]

sounds good. I hope he doesnt rack up penalties though, did he rack a lot up in silver and black, like you eluded to? I didnt watch many raiders games.

 

[Popcynical]

I don't think he's gonna have a hard time getting into a groove. We play the Bears week one.

 

[pyledriver80]

First off Joker - I can tell you facts about Charles Woodson as well. I know you are obviously in love with the guy but here are some REAL facts based on truths not biased opinions

Charles Woodson ...
... was singled out by Patrick Surtain, Miami's former Pro Bowl cornerback, who said Woodson was the league's most overhyped player.

Charles Woodson ...
... says, "I'm the best corner in the game right now, point-blank." With 17 career interceptions he's ranked only 492nd in NFL history.

Charles Woodson ...
... entered training camp in 2003 coming off his worst season, with more bone breaks (two) than interceptions (one).

Charles Woodson ...
... never spent an offseason working out until 2003, the final year of his contract.

Charles Woodson ...
... is "more prone to injuries because he doesn't train in the off-season," says a pro personnel man.

Charles Woodson ...
... resented Callahan because the coach fined him for being late and missing meetings. "Just little stuff that's irrelevant to football. Why would I be getting fined for these things when it doesn't mean anything to the game?"

Charles Woodson ...
... gathered the team shortly after his critical Callahan comments and said, "Don't say, 'Well, Charles has his own opinion.' Don't push me out there like that. If you're not going to back me, don't say anything at all."

Charles Woodson ...
... sifted through the local papers after ripping Callahan, expecting to see some of his teammates, some of the guys who had just been to his party, back him up.

Charles Woodson ...
... was "pissed" that no one did.

Charles Woodson ...
... had his motives questioned after the Callahan incident. He said he called out his coach to save the season. Some Raiders wondered if he was trying to divert attention from his bad season so he could still score a big free agent deal. "He was in a contract year," says one former Raider. "There's no way of knowing what he meant."

Charles Woodson ...
... read in the papers that guard Frank Middleton said Woodson wants to "act like a franchise player," implying that he doesn't play like one.

Charles Woodson ...
... went out with Garner the night before the season finale at San Diego, missed a mandatory 9 p.m. meeting and didn't return to the team hotel until 10:30 a.m. on game day.

Charles Woodson ...
... walked out midsentence when Callahan told him he was benched.

Charles Woodson ...
... was a tailback at Ross High and was booed by the home crowd for throwing his helmet after he failed to set the state's career rushing record. (He got it a week later.)

Charles Woodson ...
... was often late for class and is still so hated by some members of the Ross High community that Coach Lindsey often finds negative newspaper articles about Woodson in his school mailbox. He doesn't know who puts them there.

Charles Woodson ...
... was mad that Tim Brown stayed quiet as Woodson was being slapped around like a tetherball, then called a local radio station after Callahan was fired in December and talked for an hour about how the coach "sabotaged" the season.


Charles Woodson ...
... jokes about falling asleep during film sessions.

Charles Woodson ...
... "can't recover like he used to, so he takes more chances," says an opposing offensive coordinator.

Charles Woodson ...
... Failed to make an impression. "There are things from a technique standpoint that he needs to work on," says former head coach Norv Turner.




Now I am all for Woodson getting his career back on track with GB and am hoping he can regain his previous form BUT Joker don't come on here acting like he is the greatest CB of all time. Actually in the last few years he has been an often injured distraction. Like it or not his best days are most likely behind him. If he keeps his mouth shut and plays football he will dramatically improve this teams secondary but he's not as great as he once was.

 

[~TheJoker~]

Nice to see you can copy and paste from a Sports Illustrated article two years old and take credit for it.

Nice to know you have actually read and understood my posts, coming out with the knowledge that I am in love with Charles Woodson. That's some hellified reading comprehension, my friend.

Nice to know you think I came here acting as if he's the best to ever lace 'em up.

In summary, it's nice to know that your closed mind of Woodson leads to your closed mind of me. Or vice versa, which is it?

So gather up Porky and any other friends and bullcharge the hell out of me. I'll still be standing here, defending him with facts and his history while you and the others take personal pokes at me, quoting outdated articles and siding with the media's opinions. You think I'm biased but the media's not? Then I have some seriously valuable swampland to sell you, bro. I guess if they're always right, Iverson, Kobe, Bonds, Tyson, Pete Rose, Terrell Owens, Bob Gibson, and every other controversial athlete is a lesser person than their counterparts.

Whoops, forgot to add Woodson in there.

 

[all about da packers]

Joke and Pyle, take it easy on each other. Remember guys, Joker is new and he is titled to his opinion. Don't gang up and try to eat him alive.

Pyle, if you did all that research for your post on your own.... props. However if you got it from an article, I think it is appropriate to acknowledge the source.

I don't think Joker is hating on Woodson, rather just pointing out concerns he has. He has said that because of having Harris next to him, Woodson will definitly be better. It's not like the guy has said Woodson is garbage. So no need to tear Joker a new one.

So lets get back on topic, and keep the attacking out of this.

 

[all about da packers]

RP I would like to hear from you. While playing CB, did you notice any shortcomings on Woodson?

 

[tromadz]

dont you think about closing this, AADP. this is getting good. They both have 'facts' and are going at it pretty good.

I'll give you the word when you can lock it, you lockhappy locker.

I remember a long time ago, it was ME who would get into it with people. Feels just like yesterday...

 

[all about da packers]

lol Trom don't worry, I have no intention of locking this thread. Indeed both sides are presenting facts to prove their stance, I just think we could do without everyone attacking up on other members.

Definitly something to keep me entertained at 2:30 in the morning.

 

[pyledriver80]

It has nothing to do with ATTACKING or GANGING UP on Joker. Is Woodson an above average CB, Of Course, but is he an elite shutdown corner, not since 2001.

I take exception to someone calling Woodson "a leader" when he continually shows up late for practice and publically abused his coach. Just go back and read what Porky has stated over and over again. Noone here is trying to TRASH Woodson but once you get over all his "self-promotion" his numbers are very pedestrian.

Blame the lack of production on the system if that's all you got, but you can't blame injuries on the coaching staff. You can BLAME it on a failure to train in the off-season, however.


I hate to knock Woodson because I am hoping he can shut his fat mouth and muster up what he's got left in his tank to be a solid addition opposite Al. I don't need to argue with someone who clearly has a biased view.

In the end, I challenge you guys to ask people what their opinion of Woodson was before he came to GB. I will guarantee the word "Overhyped" will come out of thier mouth more times than not. Along with "Arrogant", "past his prime" and "Injury Riddled"


I don't want this to be me bashing Woodson because I want him to succeed and will be supporting him come September. I, in the same breath, am being realistic about the fact that this guy considers himself the best CB in the league even though he has not been anything more than an above average CB for the last 3 years.

 

[DePack]

dont you think about closing this, AADP. this is getting good. They both have 'facts' and are going at it pretty good.

I'll give you the word when you can lock it, you lockhappy locker.

I remember a long time ago, it was ME who would get into it with people. Feels just like yesterday...

Yea.... I agree with trom.....it's very uncomfortable watching two guys battle over the keyboard. I'm not the kind of person that likes to see conflict :wink:

 

[~TheJoker~]

It has nothing to do with ATTACKING or GANGING UP on Joker. Is Woodson an above average CB, Of Course, but is he an elite shutdown corner, not since 2001.

I take exception to someone calling Woodson "a leader" when he continually shows up late for practice and publically abused his coach. Just go back and read what Porky has stated over and over again. Noone here is trying to TRASH Woodson but once you get over all his "self-promotion" his numbers are very pedestrian.

Man, you're trying, I'll give you that. But your backhanded shots thrown in the middle of your ******** sandwich are obvious. And about the leader part---did I NOT JUST TELL YOU that he's NOT a verbal leader out there, that he's a do-it-myself kind of guy?

And I will always always ALWAYS side with a guy who stands up for his team and his teammates, even when it comes to their coach, and even when they won't back him up until after the coach is fired. Tim Brown and Jerry Rice, two greats in this game, spoke up AFTER the fact, and basically said everything Woodson said. Cowardly? Hey, it is what it is. They're, and rightfully so, worried about their appearance and their career legacy, while Woodson is staying true to himself and voicing his opinion, which just happened to be right. You know, same thing I'm doing here :wink:

Blame the lack of production on the system if that's all you got, but you can't blame injuries on the coaching staff. You can BLAME it on a failure to train in the off-season, however.

Trust me man, that's just the tip of the iceberg, that's far from all I got. For the record, he trained harder than anyone last offseason, and he still got hurt. That's just the breaks man, literally. And I have the article to prove it if you're just saying I'm biased all over again.

I hate to knock Woodson because I am hoping he can shut his fat mouth and muster up what he's got left in his tank to be a solid addition opposite Al. I don't need to argue with someone who clearly has a biased view.

Saying "I hate to knock Woodson" is one thing, but finishing the sentence with "hoping he can shut his fat mouth and muster up what he's got left" is a brilliant paradox. Your mind is like an oasis of hypocrisy...let us all swim in it. Oh look! A coconut tree that produces apples! Only in Pyle's world, I tell ya.

In the end, I challenge you guys to ask people what their opinion of Woodson was before he came to GB. I will guarantee the word "Overhyped" will come out of thier mouth more times than not. Along with "Arrogant", "past his prime" and "Injury Riddled"

You are exactly right. And do you know who gives you these comments? The media. Go out there and ask the players, the coaches, and the scouts, and you'll find the real truth.

I don't want this to be me bashing Woodson because I want him to succeed and will be supporting him come September. I, in the same breath, am being realistic about the fact that this guy considers himself the best CB in the league even though he has not been anything more than an above average CB for the last 3 years.

Dude, seriously. Quit saying 'I don't want this to be a Woodson bashing thread, cuz I like the guy and i want him to do well and he's such a **** and man he's so overrated and he smells in the morning and his girlfriend is ugly, and...'

Anyway, y'all can attack me and gang up on me all you want. Like I said before, I will still be here, I will defend every statement you make about him...and unlike you, I will actually take the other side's point of view and post his shortcomings. You haven't said one positive thing about the guy yet. So who's the one that's really biased here?

 

[bozz_2006]

First your not going to see any points I make despite them all being true to the point, do to the fact that Woodson is your boy..

Wrong. I am not a fan with blinding loyalty. I actually know many of his faults, stuff y'all don't even know yet. If you'd like to know, just ask.

what are his faults? I like to know a guys weakness.

His greatest weakness happens to be tight-lipped smartass comments from message board know-it-alls. that, and kryptonite... that being said, with our skills and knowledge, i think we could take him, trom.

 

[thetombradyhater]

Jeez Joker your hrsh and BTW Woodson is not as good as you try make him seem

 

[pyledriver80]

Jeez Joker your hrsh and BTW Woodson is not as good as you try make him seem

I have seen many mancrushes on this board but Jokers love affair with Woodson could take the cake.

Joker stated Woodson was not a "Verbal Leader" but the truth is he is not a leader in any sense. Showing up late on a regular basis and not working out in the off-season is not leadership.

Furthermore, Overhyped is NOT something the media has created. It was said by his former teammates, Opposing players,Raiders coaching personel, and numerous Coordinators around the league.

As far as other players sticking up for Woodson, this is something you must have fabricated. Though a few players had a problem with Callahan, noone sided with Woodson publically and Woodson got mad. In fact he was singled out by a few players as a complete *******.


I don't have to love him to support him. I am glad that you are so simple-minded but I am not. My honest opinion of Woodson is he is a loud-mouth player who tries to throw out boatloads of "self-promotion" in hopes that people will believe it. He is a loner, who was not popular with his old teammates. His stats have steadily declined over the last few years and he can't stay on the field due to injuries. That being said if he can come in and produce, I will support him and do so objectively, unlike you, who tries to defend the 2000 Charles Woodson instead of the 2005 guy.


Defend being late constantly, defend not working out in any off-season BESIDES his contract year. Defend the fact that he has been publically singled out by teammates. Truth is there is no defense or legit reasoning for stuff like that.

 

[DakotaT]

Jeez Joker your hrsh and BTW Woodson is not as good as you try make him seem

I have seen many mancrushes on this board but Jokers love affair with Woodson could take the cake.

Joker stated Woodson was not a "Verbal Leader" but the truth is he is not a leader in any sense. Showing up late on a regular basis and not working out in the off-season is not leadership.

Furthermore, Overhyped is NOT something the media has created. It was said by his former teammates, Opposing players,Raiders coaching personel, and numerous Coordinators around the league.

As far as other players sticking up for Woodson, this is something you must have fabricated. Though a few players had a problem with Callahan, noone sided with Woodson publically and Woodson got mad. In fact he was singled out by a few players as a complete *******.


I don't have to love him to support him. I am glad that you are so simple-minded but I am not. My honest opinion of Woodson is he is a loud-mouth player who tries to throw out boatloads of "self-promotion" in hopes that people will believe it. He is a loner, who was not popular with his old teammates. His stats have steadily declined over the last few years and he can't stay on the field due to injuries. That being said if he can come in and produce, I will support him and do so objectively, unlike you, who tries to defend the 2000 Charles Woodson instead of the 2005 guy.


Defend being late constantly, defend not working out in any off-season BESIDES his contract year. Defend the fact that he has been publically singled out by teammates. Truth is there is no defense or legit reasoning for stuff like that.

Hey Tromadz,

If this analyzation of Woodson is accurate, I bet Carroll has a hell of a shot of beating him out wouldn't you think?

 

[~TheJoker~]

I have seen many mancrushes on this board but Jokers love affair with Woodson could take the cake.

See? I have not said a single thing about you, yet you simply do not have the ability to debate with me without repeatedly saying how in love I am with him, how biased I am, yada yada yada. Stick to Charles, dude. Charles. Not Joker.

Joker stated Woodson was not a "Verbal Leader" but the truth is he is not a leader in any sense. Showing up late on a regular basis and not working out in the off-season is not leadership.

"He is not a leader in any sense." There you go with the superlatives again. You just state things as fact when they simply aren't true. When Philip Buchanon, Denard Walker, Nnamdi Asomugha, Stuart Schweigert, fabian Washington, and Stanford Routt all walk out on the field to play secondary with Woodson, and they see a fierce competitor who puts his body on the line to make the tackle, amps up the crowd after a big play, and has a look of determination when his eyes lock on the receiver opposite him, is that not the actions of a leader?

It is to me, and without saying anything. Hence, a nonverbal leader. Are you following me, or should I type sloooooower?

And the whole not working out thing?

August 24, 2004 ESPN.com---

Woodson has yet to reach an agreement with the Raiders, but he reportedly will end his holdout.

Poston told the Contra Costa Times on Tuesday that Woodson would join his teammates next week.

"The longer it takes, the more it's eating at him," Poston told the paper. "He's in great shape. He's doing two-a-days that are well beyond what [his teammates] are doing in their two-a-days."

Sounds like working out to me. Or do you need video evidence?

Furthermore, Overhyped is NOT something the media has created. It was said by his former teammates, Opposing players,Raiders coaching personel, and numerous Coordinators around the league.

The media can and will create whatever the want to create. And they can sure enough waterfall the hell out of any story they want to, making it much much bigger than it really is. For every source that you say claims he is overhyped, there is one I have that says he's one of the best. Draw.

As far as other players sticking up for Woodson, this is something you must have fabricated. Though a few players had a problem with Callahan, noone sided with Woodson publically and Woodson got mad. In fact he was singled out by a few players as a complete *******.

Something I must have fabricated, huh?

San Francisco Chronicle, September 29, 2003---


San Diego -- Bill Callahan's razor-thin hold on his troubled Raiders team disappeared in climactic chaos Sunday.

The embattled head coach, who already has cleared out of his office in Alameda in anticipation of his pending dismissal after two seasons, angrily sent cornerback Charles Woodson and running back Charlie Garner packing 90 minutes before the Raiders' season finale at San Diego's Qualcomm Stadium.

Those players who remained, the remnants of an injury riddled, hostile and frustrated team that no longer wants to play for the man nor respects his authority, responded with an embarrassing 21-14 loss to the last-place Chargers, an outcome that ensured the Raiders, the defending AFC Champions, of their worst record -- 4-12 -- in 41 years.

Callahan, who flatly refused to answer questions afterward about his future with the Raiders, apparently wasn't satisfied to go down alone. Infuriated that Woodson and Garner, two opinionated, season-long thorns in his side, failed to attend the Raiders' 9 p.m. meeting Saturday at the team hotel in La Jolla, the coach waited until both stars reached the stadium's locker room Sunday to announce they would be made inactive for the season finale.

"Just vindictiveness,'' said cornerback Terrance Shaw, who started in Woodson's place and was part of a near-mutinous defensive unit that allowed Chargers running back LaDainian Tomlinson to rush for a career-high 243 yards. "That's what that was. (Callahan) was gonna take those guys down with him.''

Said one highly placed Raiders source: "What you saw was the last act of a desperate man.''

Told they would sit for an infraction that, in the past, had been subject only to a nominal fine, Woodson and Garner erupted angrily in the locker room, teammates said, and both immediately left the stadium.

"It was unbelievable, what went on in here before the game,'' said quarterback Rick Mirer, who left the game with a right elbow injury and completed only 4-of-11 passes for 21 yards. "It definitely affected everything we did out there today. Just unreal.''

Reached Sunday night, Woodson denied a CBS report that he and Garner were out all Saturday night and did not rejoin the team until 10 a.m. Sunday. "Naw, we were there Saturday night,'' said Woodson, who immediately flew back to the Bay Area after the confrontation with Callahan.

"Would you stay?'' safety Anthony Dorsett asked. "Why would they stick around?''

"Exactly -- why you gonna stick around if you can't play,'' defensive tackle Rod Coleman said.

After the game, players -- speaking candidly and angrily without any fear of retribution -- took turns lashing out at Callahan and the way he led them into their most humiliating loss of the season.

The anger and frustration definitely showed on the field. Playing with a patchwork squad that finished with 12 players, 10 of them starters at one point, on injured reserve, the Raiders managed only 141 total yards of offense and had zero net yards passing; they lost 35 yards on five sacks.

Though the Raiders have scheduled no immediate announcement or news conference regarding Callahan's future, NFL and team sources confirmed that team owner Al Davis will make it official in the next few days.

Disgusted by the franchise's stunning decline from an 11-5 record and Super Bowl berth in 2002 to 4-12 in 2003 -- the worst following-season record by a Super Bowl team in a non-strike year since the NFL adopted the 16- game schedule in 1978 -- the Raiders' brain trust also took notice of how Callahan lost all control of his players as far back as training camp.

"They quit playing for him,'' a team official said. "You saw that today.''

Team leader Tim Brown, who tried to calm many storms this season when Callahan and his players were at odds, gave up his role as mediator Sunday and agreed that a coaching change has to be made.

"With everything that's gone down,'' he said, "even though the damage is (not) irreparable, I don't think he's the guy who can bring this team back together. Everything that Callahan and I have been through over the years, I've always said it's never a personal deal.

"But this year, he made things personal with this team. And you can't do that. You can't do that. You can't talk about your offensive line and your defensive front seven. You can't do that.

"If he's back, (the rebuilding) is going to take three years, because nobody is going to trust him. And that's the problem right now. Nobody trusts a word he says because of everything that's gone on.''

Both Woodson and Garner will be free agents when the signing period begins March 3, and teammates openly speculated that Callahan was attempting to get revenge on two players who rubbed him the wrong way just before they hit the open market.

Woodson, a four-time Pro Bowler, had 70 tackles this season, one sack and three interceptions. Garner had 120 carries for 553 yards and three touchdowns, and 48 catches for 386 yards and a touchdown.

"He knows they're free agents,'' Coleman said. Asked if he cared whether Callahan returned, Coleman said, "Not really -- he ain't gonna be my head coach. I ain't coming back next season.''

Coleman has two years remaining on his contract, but it's likely he or the team will exercise an out clause so he can play elsewhere.

Shaw said the defensive backs were so outraged by Woodson's dismissal, the group considered walking out with him. "We're one, one unit.'' Shaw said. "We were gonna go out together. But somebody had to play.''

Across the board, players were as embarrassed by their finish Sunday as they were by the way Callahan left things with his team.

"He made this the worst year of football I've ever experienced,'' Dorsett said.

Defensive tackle Dana Stubblefield said Sunday's events make it clear that either Callahan has to go or Woodson and Garner have to go. The three cannot coexist, he said.

"It's a done deal,'' Stubblefield said of the relationship between the coach and those players, "and that's why everybody's kind of interested to see what happens. I know I am.

"Everyone knows the relationship that those guys who were not with us today have with the head coach. You'd think it was under control, but it wasn't. It's a done deal. Obviously, they don't like each other.''

Brown thinks the Raiders know which side needs to stay and which should leave.

"I don't necessarily think Woodson needs to go,'' said Brown, who nonetheless didn't care for the way his teammate conducted themselves on Sunday. "I think he has the respect of a lot of guys.

"If you saw the guys around him over there before (Woodson) walked out of here,'' said Brown, gesturing to the area where the defensive backs were dressing, "then you guys would understand what I'm saying. Whether it's right or wrong, a lot of guys look up to him. A lot of guys respect him. He had eight or nine guys in here almost helping him get dressed again.

"From that standpoint, it's a situation that if he were back, he would be welcomed back.''

Let me say something real quick----gotDAMN that's some airtight proof.

I don't have to love him to support him. I am glad that you are so simple-minded but I am not.

Here we go with the personal attacks. Why? Everyone knows that's the defense of someone who has failed to retain their side of the argument.

My honest opinion of Woodson is he is a loud-mouth player who tries to throw out boatloads of "self-promotion" in hopes that people will believe it. He is a loner, who was not popular with his old teammates. His stats have steadily declined over the last few years and he can't stay on the field due to injuries. That being said if he can come in and produce, I will support him and do so objectively, unlike you, who tries to defend the 2000 Charles Woodson instead of the 2005 guy.

How do you know what the 2005 guy is, dude? And why are you so adamant saying he is less than the 2000 guy?

Defend being late constantly, defend not working out in any off-season BESIDES his contract year. Defend the fact that he has been publically singled out by teammates. Truth is there is no defense or legit reasoning for stuff like that.

I defended all sorts of sh*t, with real articles and real teammates, like I said I would. I still find it very weird that you are trying so hard to belittle and break down a great player who just landed on your team.

So...whatcha got for me now, more name-calling?

 

[pyledriver80]

So...whatcha got for me now, more name-calling?

I really don't have to argue with you as Woodson's career says it all.


Career Int. - Not even in the Top 400
Games Missed - 22


You see I listed facts previously in this thread that you failed to respond to.
I stated Woodson did not work out until his contract year.......How Come?


I stated he was singled out by Frank Middleton. Was Frank wrong?


Woodson once said that he did not need to participate in 2 a days because they were "to grueling" despite his claim he was the best CB in the league. What is that?


You want to throw out arguments that fit your side but I can find tons to fit mine.


And no Raiders player was responsible for more of those kinds of costly penalties than Woodson, according to an analysis of 2004's play-by-play for all 16 regular-season games.

In 12 starts and 13 game appearances during the 2004 season, Woodson was cited for eight pass-interference, defensive-holding and illegal-contact penalties, a full one-third of the team's total of 24 pass-interference, defensive-holding and illegal-contact infractions.




Or this assesement from the Oakland Tribune

Woodson could be even better if he put as much desire and feeling into his work Monday through Saturday. Through unquestioned dedication to their craft, Allen, Lott and Rod Woodson got to the level Charles Woodson aspires.

They put in countless hours of film study and book work. They showed up ready to practice every day and demanded their teammates do the same. They exuded a briefcase professionalism during the week and turned it all loose on Sundays.

They took care of their bodies, ate the right things, got plenty of sleep and saved themselves physically and emotionally for when they needed it most.

Charles? He likes to have fun.


After losing essentially two years from his peak performance level because of turf toe, a broken shoulder and a broken leg, Woodson returned to physical form in 2003 but didn't shed the reputation of a good-time Charles.


Breaking curfew with Charlie Garner before the finale of a lost season was not a huge offense but representative of Woodson's occasionally skewed priorities.

Here was a guy who, right or wrong, put himself on the line and spoke out against coach Bill Callahan for the benefit of his teammates as much as himself.

True to form, Woodson in his mind was speaking the unfiltered truth, and he didn't resort to playing the "taken out of context" card so common among his peers when he was heavily criticized.

Then Woodson gave Callahan the perfect opportunity to stick it to him by blowing off the final curfew. Again, Woodson admitted he was wrong, but the final act was symbolic and troubling.


When Woodson talks, teammates listen. And they watch his every move.

They watch Woodson make plays, but also see the lapses in concentration that result after being avoided by the opposing offense, causing him to give up unnecessary completions.

They watch when Woodson fights to avoid dozing off during film sessions. Woodson has never made excuses for this lapse, either. He believes too much film watching means a cluttered mind, dulling his ability to react and use his athletic ability.

They hear about the night spots he frequents, the beautiful women who surround him.


More likely, Woodson will continue to be what he has been for several years -- a very good player with many admirable qualities, a stunning talent who may some day wonder if he cashed in on all that ability.


This to me is why Woodson is overrated. A lack of commitment from the guy who like to be considered the best CB in the league is troubling.

 

[~TheJoker~]

Your articles made points for you and points for me. However, after watching his every move the last 11 years, I root for the guy. After seeing him attend one minicamp, you choose to dwell on any negativity you can find on the net.

Make it your life's goal to break him down. Just know I'll be here to defend him every time.

You still haven't told me why you're putting down a guy on your very own team, before you have even seen him play a down.

 

[PackerLegend]

He may be marked now, until the first ball is throwen his way.