Where was Clay Matthews?

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MadCat

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So according to this poster, the coaching staff deserves the bulk of the blame for anything that goes wrong and the players deserve the bulk of the credit for anything that goes right. Imagine if Ted Thompson engaged in that kind of flawed thinking.
My original point had more to do with the scapegoating and double standards that always seems to leave MM and DC blame-free. I didn't say the coach deserves the bulk of the blame when things go wrong. It depends on WHAT goes wrong. Player mistakes and attitudes often go back to coaching too. Isn't that why SS was fired? MM may be a great game planner, but he appears to be unwilling to adjust the plan he goes into the game with in relation to what happens during the game. Haven't you ever watched a game and wondered if he is even watching it? His and DC's handling of the last five minutes of regulation, especially MM's outright quitting on the second to last possession, was nothing short of negligent. Given his job security, it was even more disappointing that he would take no responsibility for the loss while throwing the players under the bus. I can't imagine a bigger learning experience for these guys in their careers, so hopefully a lot of good will come from it, as it should.

As to TT, he might just think that way... I know I would if I were the GM. ;)
 

TJV

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My original point had more to do with the scapegoating and double standards that always seems to leave MM and DC blame-free. I didn't say the coach deserves the bulk of the blame when things go wrong. It depends on WHAT goes wrong. Player mistakes and attitudes often go back to coaching too. Isn't that why SS was fired? MM may be a great game planner, but he appears to be unwilling to adjust the plan he goes into the game with in relation to what happens during the game. Haven't you ever watched a game and wondered if he is even watching it?
Actually that’s not what you posted. You posted “His offensive players have a ton of talent. I give the bulk of the credit to them.” That’s what I was responding to. And in what world are McCarthy and Capers left “blame-free”? Certainly not in Packers fandom. Certainly not on this board. Certainly not in the media.

As to who between Capers and Slocum deserved firing. I posted this in another thread:
“Look at the STs since Slocum took over as STC before the 2009 season. According to the Dallas Morning News rankings, the Packers have finished 2009: 31st, 2010: 29th; 2011: tied 13th; 2012: 12th; 2013: 19th; 2014: 32nd. The average is about a 22.5 finish.” https://www.packerforum.com/threads...ocum-for-st-failures.58176/page-2#post-597085

And quoted this from jsonline in a thread I started:
“In Capers' six seasons, the Packers rank fourth in take-aways (182), seventh in points allowed (20.9), 11th inyards allowed (343.4), 12th in passing yards allowed (231.2) and 14th in rushing yards allowed (112.2). In 10 playoff games under Capers, the Packers have 19 take-aways while allowing averages of 26.3 points and 378.4 yards, including 138.8 rushing and 239.6 passing.” http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...st-in-slowing-down-b99427040z1-288903691.html
https://www.packerforum.com/threads/in-defense-of-capers.58289/#post-596950

I’ve posted I favored Capers’ firing before this season but he, apparently with some help from McCarthy, saved his job with the adjustments made on defense after the bye week.
 

MadCat

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Actually that’s not what you posted. You posted “His offensive players have a ton of talent. I give the bulk of the credit to them.” That’s what I was responding to. And in what world are McCarthy and Capers left “blame-free”? Certainly not in Packers fandom. Certainly not on this board. Certainly not in the media.

As to who between Capers and Slocum deserved firing. I posted this in another thread:
“Look at the STs since Slocum took over as STC before the 2009 season. According to the Dallas Morning News rankings, the Packers have finished 2009: 31st, 2010: 29th; 2011: tied 13th; 2012: 12th; 2013: 19th; 2014: 32nd. The average is about a 22.5 finish.” https://www.packerforum.com/threads...ocum-for-st-failures.58176/page-2#post-597085

And quoted this from jsonline in a thread I started:
“In Capers' six seasons, the Packers rank fourth in take-aways (182), seventh in points allowed (20.9), 11th inyards allowed (343.4), 12th in passing yards allowed (231.2) and 14th in rushing yards allowed (112.2). In 10 playoff games under Capers, the Packers have 19 take-aways while allowing averages of 26.3 points and 378.4 yards, including 138.8 rushing and 239.6 passing.” http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...st-in-slowing-down-b99427040z1-288903691.html
https://www.packerforum.com/threads/in-defense-of-capers.58289/#post-596950

I’ve posted I favored Capers’ firing before this season but he, apparently with some help from McCarthy, saved his job with the adjustments made on defense after the bye week.
Sorry. Thanks for setting me straight.
 

lambeaulambo

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There are a lot of people that are just SICK about Clay and his reasoning...No better time for a blockbuster trade to cash in what a lot of people claim to be the ultimate primadonna. How bout it San Fran?
 

Ogsponge

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As much as I would prefer not to pile on the guy...

ESPN is reporting that both Kam and Sherman will require surgery and that Sherman (remind me why are receivers were not beating the **** out of that arm and testing him the entire 4th quarter of that game?) would need Tommy John's surgery. These are two guy that no only finished the game against the Packers but played in the Super Bowl as well. Nothing was keeping them out.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/201...back-richard-sherman-needs-tommy-john-surgery

Yet Clay could not play for what does not appear to be any kind of serious injury? Smh.
 

adambr2

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“In football, you’re never 100 percent,” Sherman said after the game. “We were good enough to go. We went out there and played. There’s no excuse.”

I can't say exactly how Matthews was feeling at that time, but Sherman's remarks sit a lot better with me as a defensive leader than:

"It was a medley of things catching up with me."

"I had just taken a big hit of a tight end coming across the middle, my ribs were hurting pretty good from that late hit on the sack as well as my knee too was acting up. I needed a minute to get my bearings straight. By the time we were out there for that last drive to kick a field goal and tie it I felt ready to go back out there."

Sorry, I can't respect that. You're supposed to be the heart and soul of this defense. If you're bailing for the last 5:00 of regulation in the team's most important game in 4 years, you had better be able to do better than telling us a medley of things caught up with you, especially when you were good to go for the Pro Bowl a week later. You're telling me you were on the sidelines watching as Lynch destroyed our defense and out there watching as we blew the 2 point conversion, but literally seconds later when the offense took the field, you felt ready to go back out there.

Sorry. Nope. You're no leader, Clay. You've established that.
 
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Earl Thomas returned to the Packers game and played the Super Bowl with a separated shoulder and a torn labrum. He will undergo surgery and miss six to eight months.

Reading this and hearing about Sherman´s injury as well it´s really hard for me to understand Matthews sitting out three series at the end of regulation with minor ailments that didn´t keep him out of any Pro Bowl practices.
 

RepStar15

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This topic here is how I found this forum. The entire second half I was puzzled by why Clay Matthews was sitting out. I figured he was injured, until I saw him bull rushing in the pro bowl. This is unacceptable and scares me as a Packers fan. I know we are too conservative of a team to make a trade that big, but this is concerning. A guy that is supposed to be a leader of your defense (even though he was not voted on post-season captain), sits 3 series (the 3 turning point series of the game) in the most important game thus far in the season? Was he tired from putting too much time into commercials or Pitch Perfect? This is unacceptable behavior from a professional athlete. As an athletic trainer I deal with football players dehydration, burnout, injury, conditioning and illness daily. That far in the season he should be at peak fitness level. Unless he was sick, I cannot come up with a single excuse for this. If he was dehydrated, as a professional athlete its your personal responsibility to maintain proper nutrition and hydration levels before games, so no excuses are given there. Sam Barrington played every snap, was he tired? I'm sure, but when your job is to play football, you play football. Was he trying to make a point that the defense needs him? When he was in the game Marshawn Lynch and the passing offense were getting nothing; when he was out, they took everything and a total momentum switch occurred. The fact that Haha Clinton Dix, Brandon Botstick, Morgan Burnette, Julius Peppers, Tramon Williams all got targeted for individual play errors and not someone that made an error for 3 consecutive series? Huge red flag Packers fans. There will be more to come of this.
 

Ace

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Earl Thomas returned to the Packers game and played the Super Bowl with a separated shoulder and a torn labrum. He will undergo surgery and miss six to eight months.

Reading this and hearing about Sherman´s injury as well it´s really hard for me to understand Matthews sitting out three series at the end of regulation with minor ailments that didn´t keep him out of any Pro Bowl practices.

This is what really gets me about this whole thing. He doesn't have a leg to stand on in any explanation he comes out with. If he was so hurt that it caused him to miss the most important part of the NFC Championship, or if he was so physically and emotionally drained as was reported as well, why the hell was he playing in the Pro Bowl? Is the $25 or $50K that they get that damn important to him?

I love Clay I think he is a very good player but he needs to suck it up and start becoming the leader this team needs him to be. Making that much money and on the sidelines when his team needs him the most is utterly ridiculous especially hearing about how the LOB, as much as I hate them, were playing legitimately hurt.
 

AKCheese

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This is what really gets me about this whole thing. He doesn't have a leg to stand on in any explanation he comes out with. If he was so hurt that it caused him to miss the most important part of the NFC Championship, or if he was so physically and emotionally drained as was reported as well, why the hell was he playing in the Pro Bowl? Is the $25 or $50K that they get that damn important to him?

I love Clay I think he is a very good player but he needs to suck it up and start becoming the leader this team needs him to be. Making that much money and on the sidelines when his team needs him the most is utterly ridiculous especially hearing about how the LOB, as much as I hate them, were playing legitimately hurt.
If he's not sucking it up at this point in his life he's not about to start.

This particular part of the debacle gets more and more shameful the more that comes out

He'd be better off saying "I thought we had it won and I was dinged up so I took myself out....I was wrong, I'll learn from this and NEVER make that mistake again"

As similar admission from MM concerning his failures that day would be refreshing....

This whole "oh well kinda sucks but that's football" attitude is startling

I see more anguish from players after HS losses
 

Ace

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If he's not sucking it up at this point in his life he's not about to start.

This particular part of the debacle gets more and more shameful the more that comes out

He'd be better off saying "I thought we had it won and I was dinged up so I took myself out....I was wrong, I'll learn from this and NEVER make that mistake again"

As similar admission from MM concerning his failures that day would be refreshing....

This whole "oh well kinda sucks but that's football" attitude is startling

I see more anguish from players after HS losses

Agree with this 100%.
 

Mondio

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I don't know what happened at the end of the game, but over the years I haven't seen many people give more effort on the field than Clay Matthews.
 

Carl

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and how many times have we seen teams loaded with talent, fall flat on their faces. Every year teams win the draft, they win in free agency, "dream teams" are announced, all-pro's are added, Superstars from super bowl winning teams leave in FA to another team, and by midseason they are all an afterthought.

The dream teams are duds, super bowl superstars become super high paid benchwarmers, FA winners are division losers and on and on. I'd take average talent with guys that want to play and great coaching over great talent and mediocre coaching any day.

GB has some very good players, we also have very good coaching. None are perfect, though I'm sure we'll be back in the hunt again next year. If there is a staff and headcoach that can get a team over the collapse they had in the Seattle game, I think it is this one. I can see a lot of teams that wouldn't recover from this and have a very bad next year. I guess we could to, but I don't think we will and a large part of that will be because of the head coach.

How many times have we seen a team with average talent be really good? I can't think of any examples of that.
 

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How many times have we seen a team with average talent be really good? I can't think of any examples of that.

I think the reverse is true. On every really good team, there are some players with average talent.
 

Mondio

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How many times have we seen a team with average talent be really good? I can't think of any examples of that.
I can't help you. I think almost every single great team has had a good portion of their players that are just average in talent, but excellent in preparation and execution. Put some play makers around them and suddenly your very average team looks like a bunch of super stars.
 

Carl

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I can't help you. I think almost every single great team has had a good portion of their players that are just average in talent, but excellent in preparation and execution. Put some play makers around them and suddenly your very average team looks like a bunch of super stars.

Without those playmakers though, the team would not be that good. The talent on the team is more important than the coaching in my opinion. Coaching is important too of course, just not to the same degree.

I think the reverse is true. On every really good team, there are some players with average talent.

Of course. Not every team can be filled with all great players. There aren't really good teams without any great players though.
 

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So according to the logic of some here, Bill Belicheck should have been fired years ago for not winning a SB since the 2004 season until now. And all the arm chair linebackers on here never would think to call in sick at work. Good lord. Anyone that watches the Pack knows CM has a non stop motor. To question him is just astounding. One poster on here said Peppers was the on field leader of our defense... He also was the one telling MB to go down after the interception.

Guys, just stop with the blame. The Pats with the best QB in the league over the last 15 years or so had not won a SB in 10 years. The next best QB in that time won exactly 1 SB. I get you all want to win, but I think some think it is just a bit easier to do than any, I repeat ANY, pro football player, coach or owner knows it to be. SF was the newest king of the hill. Except they did not even win one in the last, well, forever. Seattle was the best team and a for sure SB champ going in. They only beat us because of several blunders. Then lost to the Pats. Last year Denver was the big dog, this year for sure they could win.

Hell, we were not even going to win our division this year a couple of games in. Detroit was the clear favorite, even amount some Packer fans. All I can say is some of you pessimistic "fans" are killing me.
 

Ogsponge

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So according to the logic of some here, Bill Belicheck should have been fired years ago for not winning a SB since the 2004 season until now. And all the arm chair linebackers on here never would think to call in sick at work. Good lord. Anyone that watches the Pack knows CM has a non stop motor. To question him is just astounding. One poster on here said Peppers was the on field leader of our defense... He also was the one telling MB to go down after the interception.

Guys, just stop with the blame. The Pats with the best QB in the league over the last 15 years or so had not won a SB in 10 years. The next best QB in that time won exactly 1 SB. I get you all want to win, but I think some think it is just a bit easier to do than any, I repeat ANY, pro football player, coach or owner knows it to be. SF was the newest king of the hill. Except they did not even win one in the last, well, forever. Seattle was the best team and a for sure SB champ going in. They only beat us because of several blunders. Then lost to the Pats. Last year Denver was the big dog, this year for sure they could win.

Hell, we were not even going to win our division this year a couple of games in. Detroit was the clear favorite, even amount some Packer fans. All I can say is some of you pessimistic "fans" are killing me.
you are of course free to continue to accept failure and players who quit but we are also free to not find that acceptable. I honestly don't know how anybody could even remotely stand up for Clay after reading his comments, seeing him not play, with no real injury by the way, playing in the Pro Bowl a week later. I mean come on Clay quit when the team needed him most. Anyway you entitled to your view as are the rest of us.
 

AKCheese

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Plus I know he's a Packer and in some people's minds hence not open for criticism, but is Mathews becoming a borderline cheap shot artist?
 

Packer Fan in SD

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you are of course free to continue to accept failure and players who quit but we are also free to not find that acceptable. I honestly don't know how anybody could even remotely stand up for Clay after reading his comments, seeing him not play, with no real injury by the way, playing in the Pro Bowl a week later. I mean come on Clay quit when the team needed him most. Anyway you entitled to your view as are the rest of us.

Well, he did play in O.T. So playing in the flag football game really wouldn't make a difference at that point. I do appreciate your point of view and how you addressed all my other points.
 

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Given the magnitude of the Packer collapse, Clay not being in there for the last few minutes of RT sticks out like a sore thumb, but it sure does look like the Packers--and Clay--are trying to rug-sweep it.
 

Ogsponge

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Well, he did play in O.T. So playing in the flag football game really wouldn't make a difference at that point. I do appreciate your point of view and how you addressed all my other points.

What other points? The points that have nothing to do with Clay seemingly quitting on this team? Okay for the record the Patriots have been in the Superbowl 6 times with 4 wins with the best quarterback in the league during that timespan. The Packers have been in 1 with 1 victory while finding continually ridiculous and unbelievable ways to lose when it matters most.

Now that is out of the way would you like to explain why the guy with the "nonstop" motor was stopped for the most important 3 minutes of the Packers season? Why he was hurt so badly he could not play then but could a few minutes later and not miss any flag football practices? What was this horrible injury? Was it a torn labrum? Was it torn ligaments in the elbow? Oh wait those guys where able to finish that game, beat the Packers and play in the Superbowl.

So what exactly was your point? We should go easy on the guy who quit on his team? Sorry but I think the guy owes a better explanation other than I needed a few minutes. If there is a point I missed please let me know and I will address that as well.
 

Mondio

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Plus I know he's a Packer and in some people's minds hence not open for criticism, but is Mathews becoming a borderline cheap shot artist?
He's certainly open for criticism. I don't know why he wasn't in the game, it certainly was a critical period and we could have used him out there. But there are a few years of history of the guy flying around on the football field with all effort all the time.

and while I don't think the answers for why he wasn't out there are very good, I also don't believe that he just "quit" on the team either. his history or his style of play don't show that at all.

as to the cheap shot artist, what plays stick out? I can think of the hit out of bounds against San Fran, but what other ones? and he took ownership of making a stupid play. If he was apologizing every week for that, then we'd have an issue, but once every 5 years? The hit on Wilson? I really fail to see how hitting a guy that is obviously trying to not only involve himself in the play, but is in a pretty good position to make the play as a defender since Dix was running right towards him, is a "dirty" play in anyway.

I understand the league is protecting qb's, well if you don't want to involve yourself in a play after an INT, give yourself up. It's not as if he was 10-20 yards away from the play, he was right freaking there, and guys get hit like that in every game every week of the year.
 

adambr2

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Anyone that watches the Pack knows CM has a non stop motor. To question him is just astounding.

Seems to have a great motor, but that isn't the same thing as having a willingness to play through pain.

One poster on here said Peppers was the on field leader of our defense... He also was the one telling MB to go down after the interception.

Missing the last few drives of the NFC Championship Game with a "non-injury" and making a split second decision as a leader in the heat of the moment are not the same thing. While I think it was a mistake on his part, I don't question his leadership for it. There's a reason he was picked as a defensive captain and Matthews was not. We're not talking about making a bad judgment call, and no one said that to be a leader you must never make a bad judgment call.

Guys, just stop with the blame. The Pats with the best QB in the league over the last 15 years or so had not won a SB in 10 years. The next best QB in that time won exactly 1 SB. I get you all want to win, but I think some think it is just a bit easier to do than any, I repeat ANY, pro football player, coach or owner knows it to be. SF was the newest king of the hill. Except they did not even win one in the last, well, forever. Seattle was the best team and a for sure SB champ going in. They only beat us because of several blunders. Then lost to the Pats. Last year Denver was the big dog, this year for sure they could win. Hell, we were not even going to win our division this year a couple of games in. Detroit was the clear favorite, even amount some Packer fans. All I can say is some of you pessimistic "fans" are killing me.

Not sure why you started going on about the blame game and making comparisons to the Pats and Broncos and pessimistic fans here. None of this has anything to do with legitimate questions of the leadership of your highest paid defensive player because he refused to play through what now appear to be minor issues that didn't keep him out of the Pro Bowl, while several defensive leaders on the Seahawks were playing through major injuries. No one said that we didn't win the Super Bowl because of Clay Matthews, and no one is talking about New England, Denver, or Detroit other than comparing Matthews to other defensive leaders.
 
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