What Safety is there at 12? Or Hockenson ~ the next Gronk

[brandon2348]

I like Campbell a lot but think he will be there at #44.

He will not be there at #44. Trust me.

 

[Dantés]

The guy who wouldn't shut up about Courtland Sutton last year (4.54) now saying that the game is changed and you must target game changing speed no matter what.

I've never encountered someone who made it so painfully obvious that they're making it up as they go along.

 

[brandon2348]

The guy who wouldn't shut up about Courtland Sutton last year (4.54) now saying that the game is changed and you must target game changing speed no matter what.

I've never encountered someone who made it so painfully obvious that they're making it up as they go along.

Courtland Sutton is 6'4 220 and had an ELITE 3 CONE though. I also never suggested him getting drafted at 12.

There is nothing ELITE about Hockenson..

OMG! I've never met someone who can take anything and everything out of CONTEXT!

What is this ELITE VISION that people have with Hockenson? Nobody has been able to give anything other then a Gronk Comparison which is hilarious.

If your gonna mock someone at 12 you better have a vision that merits that pick or you just grabbing at straws and making a FOOL OUT OF YOURSELF!

 

[Dantés]

Courtland Sutton is 6'4 220 and had an ELITE 3 CONE though. I also never suggested him getting drafted at 12.

There is nothing ELITE about Hockenson..

OMG! I've never met someone who can take anything and everything out of CONTEXT!

What is this ELITE VISION that people have with Hockenson? Nobody has been able to give anything other then a Gronk Comparison which is hilarious.

If your gonna mock someone at 12 you better have a vision that merits that pick or you just grabbing at straws and making a FOOL OUT OF YOURSELF!

I am definitely not the one making a fool out of myself.

Lots of people, including me, have explained why they would like Hockenson here without making any reference to Rob Gronkowski.

You just don't care to read those takes and discuss them. Because you're too busy acting like a 3 year old who needs a nap.

 

[scotscheese]

@brandon2348 will you take a break from the forum and shut the f*** up

you are just coming across as a spoilt little child now who shouts until he gets his way. i said previously that i have no issue with your opinion/point of view, but take a f***ing chill pill and start discussing in a rational way.

just FYI, i've done a few mocks, and campbell is rated usually at the mid70's where as hockenson is generally drafted by 15, so Cambpell at 44 would sound like a reach for me. unless your job is to actually study these things like the people who make up the drafts, i'm going to take their values as closer to the mark.

just one other FYI, as i've stated times before around the board, i know very little regarding the draft and college players coming into the draft, which is why i normally don't have too much to say in these kind of threads, but every time i see your name i just automatically role my eyes before i even read your post.

if we do draft Campbell, i hope he lives up to all your expectations, same for anyone else we draft, as i just want the pack to get back to winning ways.

one last thing, if you are on facebook, look up the page "things anti-vaxxers say", your posts generally come across as the people(anti-vaxxers) that this page highlight, and it's not a good thing, as they come across as irrational, and possibly not the sharpest knife in the drawer

 

[Deleted member 6794]

As for another DL, nah. Resign Fackrell and Lowry in 2020. If Daniels fades, draft a DL in 2020.

The Packers could definitely need another defensive lineman for this season with Daniels being in decline and coming off a significant injury.

You know that Fackrell isn't a DLer, don't you???

 

[brandon2348]

I am definitely not the one making a fool out of myself.

Lots of people, including me, have explained why they would like Hockenson here without making any reference to Rob Gronkowski.

You just don't care to read those takes and discuss them. Because you're too busy acting like a 3 year old who needs a nap.

You mean "BECAUSE ZIERLEIN AND JEREMIAH SAID SO?" Yes, I have used Charlie Campbell's insight but at least I have described a "PERSONAL VISION" which I have not heard from you or anyone else.

 

[brandon2348]

@brandon2348 will you take a break from the forum and shut the f*** up

you are just coming across as a spoilt little child now who shouts until he gets his way. i said previously that i have no issue with your opinion/point of view, but take a f***ing chill pill and start discussing in a rational way.

just FYI, i've done a few mocks, and campbell is rated usually at the mid70's where as hockenson is generally drafted by 15, so Cambpell at 44 would sound like a reach for me. unless your job is to actually study these things like the people who make up the drafts, i'm going to take their values as closer to the mark.

just one other FYI, as i've stated times before around the board, i know very little regarding the draft and college players coming into the draft, which is why i normally don't have too much to say in these kind of threads, but every time i see your name i just automatically role my eyes before i even read your post.

if we do draft Campbell, i hope he lives up to all your expectations, same for anyone else we draft, as i just want the pack to get back to winning ways.

one last thing, if you are on facebook, look up the page "things anti-vaxxers say", your posts generally come across as the people(anti-vaxxers) that this page highlight, and it's not a good thing, as they come across as irrational, and possibly not the sharpest knife in the drawer

Brandon says "Cody Ford"

Brandon says "Ed Oliver"

Brandon says "Jonah Williams"

Brandon says "Christian Wilkins"

Brandon says "Devin White"

Brandon says "ETC ETC ETC"


Brandon says "Parris Campbell" OMG! I'm turning the whole thread into Parris Campbell. I'm obsessed and fixated on him! The so called EXPERTS say I'm wrong! I NEED TO TAKE A CHILL PILL!

UNBELIEVABLE!

 

[scotscheese]

Brandon says "Cody Ford"

Brandon says "Ed Oliver"

Brandon says "Jonah Williams"

Brandon says "Christian Wilkins"

Brandon says "Devin White"

Brandon says "ETC ETC ETC"


Brandon says "Parris Campbell" OMG! I'm turning the whole thread into Parris Campbell. I'm obsessed and fixated on him! The so called EXPERTS say I'm wrong! I NEED TO TAKE A CHILL PILL!

UNBELIEVABLE!

i have not had a go at your actual opinion, just the way you are presenting it & yourself

 

[Dantés]

You mean "BECAUSE ZIERLEIN AND JEREMIAH SAID SO?" Yes, I have used Charlie Campbell's insight but at least I have described a "PERSONAL VISION" which I have not heard from you or anyone else.

See, this is the problem.

I've explained all over the place why I personally like Hockenson, among other prospects, as a potential target for the Packers.

But you can't handle disagreement or discussion, so you flail around and turn your all-caps on pitch a hissy. That's fine if you want to do that. It really doesn't affect my day. But it is literally turning you into a punchline on this forum.

If it helps you, I'll give my "personal vision" (for whatever that's worth) for why I'm interested in Hockenson, among others, for the Packers in round 1.

In a vacuum, Hockenson is an elite TE prospect. His blocking and his hands are elite traits. His athleticism, route running, and yards after the catch ability are all high end. He wins both in the short game and the deep game. His athleticism is around the 90th%. Taken altogether, he's in the conversation with O.J. Howard as the best TE prospect to have come out since Gronkowski. That is to say that he's one of the two best guys to come out at his position in a decade.

More specifically to the Packers, Hockenson gives you the ability to be multiple without changing personnel. He's an elite run blocker and an excellent receiver. Being able to run and pass equally effectively out of the same personnel has been a staple of the offensive system that LaFleur comes from.

LaFleur has heavily used TE's in the past, and a lot of 12 personnel. Thus even with other players under contract, TE is a need. And moving beyond this season, it's a really big need. Graham is in decline and will be a cap casualty after this season. Lewis is an unknown commodity on a one year deal, being 35 years old this season and barely playing last year. Tonyan is a project.

So my "vision" for him is that he gives LaFleur a really dangerous 12 personnel weapon in year one, and into the future he acts a catalyst for making the run and pass game equally effective without changing personnel groupings. That value, in addition to what I believe would be high end receiving production and plus blocking, is worth a 1st round pick to me and would be a great fit with what GB wants to do moving forward.

All of that said, I am not sold that he is the #1 option for the Packers at 12, nor is he the only guy I'd be fine with. I recognize that positional value is a consideration. I've said elsewhere that taking Hockenson in the 1st round would probably only happen in reality if it's preceded by a trade down. Heck, I even mocked him one spot behind Parris Campbell recently (Campbell #22 to BAL; Hockenson #23 to HOU).

So there... that's why I like Hockenson. So despite the fact that I've said all of this elsewhere, he it is in one place. So you can't complain that you don't get an explanation.

 

[scotscheese]

See, this is the problem.

I've explained all over the place why I personally like Hockenson, among other prospects, as a potential target for the Packers.

But you can't handle disagreement or discussion, so you flail around and turn your all-caps on pitch a hissy. That's fine if you want to do that. It really doesn't affect my day. But it is literally turning you into a punchline on this forum.

If it helps you, I'll give my "personal vision" (for whatever that's worth) for why I'm interested in Hockenson, among others, for the Packers in round 1.

In a vacuum, Hockenson is an elite TE prospect. His blocking and his hands are elite traits. His athleticism, route running, and yards after the catch ability are all high end. He wins both in the short game and the deep game. His athleticism is around the 90th%. Taken altogether, he's in the conversation with O.J. Howard as the best TE prospect to have come out since Gronkowski. That is to say that he's one of the two best guys to come out at his position in a decade.

More specifically to the Packers, Hockenson gives you the ability to be multiple without changing personnel. He's an elite run blocker and an excellent receiver. Being able to run and pass equally effectively out of the same personnel has been a staple of the offensive system that LaFleur comes from.

LaFleur has heavily used TE's in the past, and a lot of 12 personnel. Thus even with other players under contract, TE is a need. And moving beyond this season, it's a really big need. Graham is in decline and will be a cap casualty after this season. Lewis is an unknown commodity on a one year deal, being 35 years old this season and barely playing last year. Tonyan is a project.

So my "vision" for him is that he gives LaFleur a really dangerous 12 personnel weapon in year one, and into the future he acts a catalyst for making the run and pass game equally effective without changing personnel groupings. That value, in addition to what I believe would be high end receiving production and plus blocking, is worth a 1st round pick to me and would be a great fit with what GB wants to do moving forward.

All of that said, I am not sold that he is the #1 option for the Packers at 12, nor is he the only guy I'd be fine with. I recognize that positional value is a consideration. I've said elsewhere that taking Hockenson in the 1st round would probably only happen in reality if it's preceded by a trade down. Heck, I even mocked him one spot behind Parris Campbell recently (Campbell #22 to BAL; Hockenson #23 to HOU).

So there... that's why I like Hockenson. So despite the fact that I've said all of this elsewhere, he it is in one place. So you can't complain that you don't get an explanation.

hope you're not expecting a rational un-capitalized reply from him?

 

[Dantés]

hope you're not expecting a rational un-capitalized reply from him?

I stopped expecting that a long time ago.

 

[Mondio]

@brandon2348 will you take a break from the forum and shut the f*** up



one last thing, if you are on facebook, look up the page "things anti-vaxxers say", your posts generally come across as the people(anti-vaxxers) that this page highlight, and it's not a good thing, as they come across as irrational, and possibly not the sharpest knife in the drawer

I agree with the first sentence, even invisible this guy has made me mostly want to avoid certain topics for a month now.

as to the last part, its the 2nd time you've brought it up, and the people having fun in that group are no more educated than the group they rail against. It would be like visiting a "things democrats say" or "things republicans say" or things "bear's fans say". All they know are talking points and very little else.

anyway, this is football, not public health. Watch the people in your FB group come unhinged when you mention waning immunity being responsible for a lot of cases Measles, Mumps and Pertussis. They won't know what the **** you're talking about. Probably go off about Jenny and anti-vaxxers.

They won't know why a lot of cases of the latter are in teenagers and 20-30 year olds either. They think what they see on the news is how it really is. They don't know why people above 40 seem to be better protected and those in their 60's even better yet. They probably don't know how things changed to aP vaccines in the early to mid 90's from the wP vaccines my generation and earlier got. More importantly, they probably don't know why the switch was made in the first place.

The larger problem is people not knowing anything, thinking they do because someone told them that's the way it was. Never injected a guinea pig, a rabbit, let alone a beagle to see it's response to B. burgdorferi and ran blood to look for all the different antibodies present in blood. But someone who has could go say "something anti-vaxxers" say and your group would go off. think about it. and then leave that to you FB group from now on where they feel smarter than they are.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

The Packers could definitely need another defensive lineman for this season with Daniels being in decline and coming off a significant injury.

You know that Fackrell isn't a DLer, don't you???

The Packers have Mike Daniels, Brian Bulaga, and Jimmy Graham entering the final year of their respective contracts - Much like Jordy last year, and Matthews and Cobb this year, it seems unlikely any of them will be retained after the coming season. All appear to be in decline. Ideally, you'd like to have their replacements on the roster, so this is perhaps something GB plans to address in the coming draft.


And.....Still need another safety, among other things.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The Packers have Mike Daniels, Brian Bulaga, and Jimmy Graham entering the final year of their respective contracts - Much like Jordy last year, and Matthews and Cobb this year, it seems unlikely any of them will be retained after the coming season. All appear to be in decline. Ideally, you'd like to have their replacements on the roster, so this is perhaps something GB plans to address in the coming draft.


And.....Still need another safety, among other things.

Graham has 2 more years on his contract. However, the way the contract was structured, the dead cap is much more palatable next season, if the Packer do decide to cut him.

 

[Mondio]

If Graham has another season similar to last, I do not see him back with the team for the final year.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If Graham has another season similar to last, I do not see him back with the team for the final year.

I think he will have a better season this year, as long as #12 stays healthy, but I don't expect it to be Pro Bowl caliber or probably enough to warrant keeping him around for the final year. That said, I fully expect the Packers to be looking for his replacement in the draft and if they don't find it there, they always have the luxury of going with who they have, seeing how Graham does this season and hit the Free Agent market/draft next year if the need arises.

I know most want to see a high quality TE drafted this year, but I don't look at the position as being such a high priority, that you reach too far for a prospect in the first few rounds.

 

[Dantés]

I think he will have a better season this year, as long as #12 stays healthy, but I don't expect it to be Pro Bowl caliber or probably enough to warrant keeping him around for the final year. That said, I fully expect the Packers to be looking for his replacement in the draft and if they don't find it there, they always have the luxury of going with who they have, seeing how Graham does this season and hit the Free Agent market/draft next year if the need arises.

I know most want to see a high quality TE drafted this year, but I don't look at the position as being such a high priority, that you reach too far for a prospect in the first few rounds.

One thing that will make it hard to keep him is that the cap hits of the new signees basically double after this season. They will be looking for some cap relief elsewhere.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

One thing that will make it hard to keep him is that the cap hits of the new signees basically double after this season. They will be looking for some cap relief elsewhere.

Right. But hey, if he has a Pro Bowl kind of year and him and AR are clicking, his 3rd year may look like a "bargain".

I do think it was structured to have that 3rd year as an out if need be, so we will just have to see how it goes. As much as I like Hochenson and to some extent Fant (at #30), I won't be broken up if the Packers wait until the 3rd or 4th round to look for Graham's eventual replacement. In other words, I think the position is fine for 2019 and would rather see other positions be addressed, at least with the #12 pick. If Hochenson is there at #12 and is far and away the best value and no trade back options exist, then I can see Gute grabbing him.

 

[sschind]

I don't think anyone is really MISSING ANYTHING. Hockenson has some great film and some people have put all there eggs in that basket with him because there certainly not putting it in his measurables or athletic numbers. A few years ago I probably would of done the same but once again with all the rule changes in the league ELITE SPEED IS AT A PREMIUM. The game is played differently then it was even 3-5 years ago. NO SPEED NO W''S"

I just do not see the value in taking Hockenson at 12 with what he would do for us. Jimmie Graham has more Length then Hockenson. M. Lewis is a better blocker then him and Tonyan is faster. There is not one thing Hockenson does or provides that he would be best at on our roster so it just makes zero sense for the Packers to invest so highly in him.

The Mock below I feel is the most accurate out there and not just as far as the Packers. As far as the Packers it has

1st Cody Ford, absolute stud who can play G or RT. ROADGRADDER

1st P. Campbell, Would be the most explosive Packer in franchise history

2nd Irv Smith, Not my favorite pick but would give LaFleur a versatile player in his scheme. I'd rather have C.Lindstrom here if available but would not complain about Smith in 2nd round.

3rd Winnovich, Take Germaine Pratt

That would be a GREAT HAUL. If we could get Germaine Pratt instead of Winnovich it might turn out to be the best Packer draft in recent memory.


http://walterfootball.com/draft2019charlie.php

Thank you for your response. As I have said before all I have to go on with these guys is the opinions of others so I do value all of them, even yours . I could be happy with your mock given the things I have heard about these players.

Just from what I have been seeing there may be a few other OL who might be available at 12 that I would rather have than Ford but I've seen enough good things about him to know I'd be OK with him.

If Campbell can play the slot I'd be fine with him at #30. Again, it may be a little higher than I have seen him going on average but not unrealistically so and I have seen him going higher in a few so again it not out of line.

I have said before that I almost hope someone takes Hockenson before we pick at #12 not because I don't want him but because I'd rather have an OL or DL at that spot and I have heard enough good things about Smith to think he would be a very good alternative.

Now on to my criticisms of your post (you knew they were coming didn't you) not criticisms so much as more questions. You've said many times that with the TEs we have on the roster we don't have room for Hockenson at #12 and yet you take one at #44. If we don't have room for the #1 TE prospect (I know not yours) how do you justify taking one at #44. Do you think Smith is a better TE prospect than Hockenson? Finally we have three TEs on the roster that combined are better than Hockenson (one is faster, one is a better blocker and one has more length) but since we can have at best 2 of them on the field at a time and only one can get the ball if that 1 is Hockenson he would be better than any one of the three in at least 2 areas. Isn't that better.

Anyway, thanks again for taking time to answer my questions. I know it seems like everyone gangs up on you, myself included, but like I said I value all opinions and when they are presented in a respectful manner it means even more.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I've said this before, I'll say it again. I get it, Jimmy Graham was damn near unstoppable in New Orleans. He went to a less pass-happy offense in Seattle in a much colder climate and everyone said he's lost his edge(granted Father Time is undefeated). Let me remind you why I believe he's still got it:


55 receptions (9th)
636 receiving yds (9th)
11.6 ypc(10th-any TE with 30+ receptions)
2 TDs (tied 20th-any TE with 30+ receptions)

Keep in mind he did that with a BROKEN THUMB for SEVEN GAMES.

With TDs being the only disappointment, if we drafted Hockenson and he did that his rookie year we'd be ready to crown him the next Mark Chmura. With the TE position a centerpiece in LeFleur's offense I expect Jimmy G to fly high in 2019.


But again, I understand that Graham can't play for too much longer, and at some point, the TE position does need to be addressed. If we don't address it in some way, shape, or form the name to look for is Mizzou's Albert Okwuegbunam in 2020 who is listed at 6'5/260 and is rumored to run as quick as 4.57.

 

[OldSchool101]

I don't think anyone is really MISSING ANYTHING. Hockenson has some great film and some people have put all there eggs in that basket with him because there certainly not putting it in his measurables or athletic numbers. A few years ago I probably would of done the same but once again with all the rule changes in the league ELITE SPEED IS AT A PREMIUM. The game is played differently then it was even 3-5 years ago. NO SPEED NO W''S"

I just do not see the value in taking Hockenson at 12 with what he would do for us. Jimmie Graham has more Length then Hockenson. M. Lewis is a better blocker then him and Tonyan is faster. There is not one thing Hockenson does or provides that he would be best at on our roster so it just makes zero sense for the Packers to invest so highly in him.

The Mock below I feel is the most accurate out there and not just as far as the Packers. As far as the Packers it has

1st Cody Ford, absolute stud who can play G or RT. ROADGRADDER

1st P. Campbell, Would be the most explosive Packer in franchise history

2nd Irv Smith, Not my favorite pick but would give LaFleur a versatile player in his scheme. I'd really ather have C.Lindstrom here if available but would not complain about Smith in 2nd round.

3rd Winnovich, Take Germaine Pratt

That would be a GREAT HAUL. If we could get Germaine Pratt instead of Winnovich it might turn out to be the best Packer draft in recent memory.


http://walterfootball.com/draft2019charlie.php

That Walter Mock reaffirms my thought process. Make it easy for Washington to move to 12 with a straightforward and very fair deal.
Give Washington our #12 and #75 and get
#15 and #46 in return. I’d even dangle the pick #226 as an olive branch. It’s always good to have trade partners and keep relationships open for future trades.
That way we’d pick twice in the 1st round..and then again twice in the first half of the 2nd round.

Not that this is mandatory, but that seems to be a place we’re historically successful at WR or TE in the event we don’t get our guy round 1.
Heck, with some good fortune it might even cover both.
My ideal wish would be a premier Defender
at #15 (if were confident Washington picks a QB at #12 we may also see Miami do likewise at #13)
A starting caliber OL at #30, then the best 2 of these 3 round 2. WR, TE, RB

 

[scotscheese]

I agree with the first sentence, even invisible this guy has made me mostly want to avoid certain topics for a month now.

as to the last part, its the 2nd time you've brought it up, and the people having fun in that group are no more educated than the group they rail against. It would be like visiting a "things democrats say" or "things republicans say" or things "bear's fans say". All they know are talking points and very little else.

anyway, this is football, not public health. Watch the people in your FB group come unhinged when you mention waning immunity being responsible for a lot of cases Measles, Mumps and Pertussis. They won't know what the **** you're talking about. Probably go off about Jenny and anti-vaxxers.

They won't know why a lot of cases of the latter are in teenagers and 20-30 year olds either. They think what they see on the news is how it really is. They don't know why people above 40 seem to be better protected and those in their 60's even better yet. They probably don't know how things changed to aP vaccines in the early to mid 90's from the wP vaccines my generation and earlier got. More importantly, they probably don't know why the switch was made in the first place.

The larger problem is people not knowing anything, thinking they do because someone told them that's the way it was. Never injected a guinea pig, a rabbit, let alone a beagle to see it's response to B. burgdorferi and ran blood to look for all the different antibodies present in blood. But someone who has could go say "something anti-vaxxers" say and your group would go off. think about it. and then leave that to you FB group from now on where they feel smarter than they are.

my comparison is for the way he comes across, it is very similar in style to a lot of what i see on that fb page. i mostly follow that page for the humour, and sheer unbelievable views from some. but i won't derail the thread with actual discussion of it, can easily discuss in the atrium if wanted

 

[Pugger]

Mike Gesickii was a better prospect then Hockenson

That's a real knee slapper. Why all the hate? lol If you are this clairvoyant I want you to help us with stock picks on Wall Street next.

EVERY COTTON PICKIN PICK TAKEN LATER THIS MONTH BY ANY TEAM COULD BUST. The draft is the ultimate crap shoot. Only a handful of guys in every draft class turn out to be special. We won't know if a player will be great until he actually dons a helmet and pads at this level. Just because they were wonderful at the collegiate level doesn't mean beans when it comes to the NFL.

 

[Pugger]

The Packers shouldn't reach for any prospect, no matter the position. Take the player presenting the best value when on the clock. If Hockenson is that guy at #12 I'm fine with it.

Yes, if the draft falls in such a manner that any of the EDGE players still available are not better than Hock or another player at another position it isn't the end of the damn world. But this is a deep class of pass rushers and there will be QB desperate teams that will reach for one this year so a good one should be sitting there waiting for Gute to call.