What happen to.........

[Deleted member 6794]

Of course it is possible. It's just that there is a lot more evidence that points to a coaching issue than a talent issue.

The performance of both Hayward and Hyde with their new teams might indicate coaching was an issue in Green Bay although they had their moments with the Packers as well. No other defensive back significantly improved after leaving the green and gold.

But once again, if Capers wasn't up to the task anymore Thompson should have made a move and forced McCarthy to get rid of him.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Talent or no talent:
I think the problem in 2016 was that there wasn't much experience at CB other than Shields, and once he went down that weakness was really exposed.

There's a reason #1 corners get paid the big bucks.

When you don't have one you get, for example, your free safety chating to the sidelines to double Julio Jones in low-high coverage. You're basically playing with 10 1/2 against 11, with Sanu ripping you over the middle.

You would not expect Shields to shut down Jones one-on-one, but he'd be expected to acceptably contain the damage. Then you actually have a free safety and are playing 11 on 11. That's a big difference.

 

[rmontro]

It's not surprising that old thread indicates there was optimism about the Packers secondary, heading into the 2016 season. Because it had been performing at a fairly good level for the past few years - at the time it was considered a strength. But hindsight or not, by 2015 that strength was largely an illusion. Because TT had let the key performers go (and because of Shields career ending injury) with the hopes that the youth could take over.

But it's also looks like the team had trouble developing young talent, and that is not a recipe for success, especially on a team known for being "draft and develop". I think it's fairly obvious that both TT and Capers bear some responsibility.

 

[AmishMafia]

The performance of both Hayward and Hyde with their new teams might indicate coaching was an issue in Green Bay although they had their moments with the Packers as well. No other defensive back significantly improved after leaving the green and gold.

Yup. Not every player TT drafted was an All Pro. But clearly those that were, did not develop into their full potential.

But once again, if Capers wasn't up to the task anymore Thompson should have made a move and forced McCarthy to get rid of him.

So any explanation as long as you can criticize TT. MM does not seem like the coach who would allow the GM to dictate his staff. TT looked at it as he would probably have to fire MM to get rid of Capers. Perhaps he viewed MM as a great coach and weighed his options and decided keeping MM was paramount.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The performance of both Hayward and Hyde with their new teams might indicate coaLching was an issue in Green Bay although they had their moments with the Packers as well. No other defensive back significantly improved after leaving the green and gold.

In Hayward's 2012 rookie season, he logged 6 interceptions and 21 passes defended on a 63% snap count.

In 2016, it was 7 picks and 20 PDs on a 92% snap count.

In 2017, it was 4 picks and 22 PDs on a 96% snap count.

If you take Hayward's rookie numbers and extrapolate them to a 94% snap count, you get insane numbers: 9 picks, 31 PDs.

Was Hayward free lancing and jumping routes as a rookie? Yes. Did the minuses of that style of play offset the plusses? Evidently Capers didn't like that risk-reward because that was not the style of play going forward. Was it a "stop that" rather than fine tuning away the negatives? Good chance that's exactly what happened.

 

[rmontro]

MM does not seem like the coach who would allow the GM to dictate his staff.

I've always had the impression that the coach controlled who was on his staff. I'm sure TT could have put some pressure on him, but maybe he respected that as a line he would not cross. Or maybe TT thought Capers was an awesome DC, who knows? Speaking from experience, it was probably nice to have someone around who was older than he was lol.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I've always had the impression that the coach controlled who was on his staff.

I doubt that's entirely the case unless the HC is also the GM (Belichick) or sits over the GM (Reid and Carroll). GM coaches and uber-GM coaches would have budgetary authority. Otherwise, that HC would need approval. If there are x years left on a DC or OC's contract with some or all of the salary guaranteed or a hefty golden parachute of some kind, firing that coordinator could be a multi-million dollar decision. The guy with budget authority needs to sign off on that. It's possible McCarthy wanted Capers gone sooner but Thompson found the cost prohibitive. That's even assuming he thought Capers was doing a bad job, which may not have been the case.

Sure, coaches don't count against any cap. But the Green Bay Packers, Inc. is a business wrapped around a football operation where cash expenses matter quite a lot.

I don't know what position coaches get paid, but I'd think it's typically a low enough amount (very low 6 figures?) that if McCarthy wanted to get rid of one it would not meet much oversight.

 

[AmishMafia]

I've always had the impression that the coach controlled who was on his staff. I'm sure TT could have put some pressure on him, but maybe he respected that as a line he would not cross. Or maybe TT thought Capers was an awesome DC, who knows? Speaking from experience, it was probably nice to have someone around who was older than he was lol.

We all have our guesses. I cant figure out why MM stuck with Dom as long as he did. The defense was really frustrating to watch. They continually underperformed to the talent and I thought that was fairly obvious. I think that TT respected MM and didnt pressure him. I think MM respected Dom and kept him, each season Dom doing tweaks only to face the same result. I am fairly certain TT stopped being GM for mainly health reasons or he would no longer still be with the front office.

 

[rmontro]

I cant figure out why MM stuck with Dom as long as he did.

McCarthy was always talking about how knowledgeable Dom was. Maybe he thought they won a Super Bowl with him once, with the defense making a big contribution to that, there's no reason they couldn't do it again. But it just didn't happen.

As for demoting Ted, there's also the idea that they didn't want to lose all the successors to him that they had in mind and had been training to potentially take his place.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The performance of both Hayward and Hyde with their new teams might indicate coaching was an issue in Green Bay although they had their moments with the Packers as well. No other defensive back significantly improved after leaving the green and gold.

But once again, if Capers wasn't up to the task anymore Thompson should have made a move and forced McCarthy to get rid of him.

Amen to that, although I hang that on MM for keeping Capers. As for Hyde, he was a safety forced to play corner or slot. As for Hayward, who knows? Anyway, the D needs a fresh start and some spirit and discipline. I think Pettine brings that.

 

[rmontro]

If there are x years left on a DC or OC's contract with some or all of the salary guaranteed or a hefty golden parachute of some kind, firing that coordinator could be a multi-million dollar decision. The guy with budget authority needs to sign off on that. It's possible McCarthy wanted Capers gone sooner but Thompson found the cost prohibitive.

If what you say is true, then maybe keeping Capers around for so long was a financial decision, not a football decision. Possible, I suppose. I don't pretend to know how it works, but it only makes sense that McCarthy would have to talk to the money people when making decisions.

But I still get the impression that it's mainly the coach who controls his staff. For example, it was reported that McCarthy fired Capers, and that McCarthy hired Pettine. Maybe he has a budget to work with, or maybe he has to put the names through an approval process.

 

[HardRightEdge]

If what you say is true, then maybe keeping Capers around for so long was a financial decision, not a football decision. Possible, I suppose. I don't pretend to know how it works, but it only makes sense that McCarthy would have to talk to the money people when making decisions.

I doubt it was that black and white. I'm not suggesting that if Capers was deemed a terrible coach they wouldn't find the cash to buy him out. What I am saying is that if Capers was owned millions heading out the door the money may have been a factor. That factor may have been quite large dating back some years and declining as fewer years were on his contract, making it more palatable.

But I still get the impression that it's mainly the coach who controls his staff. For example, it was reported that McCarthy fired Capers, and that McCarthy hired Pettine. Maybe he has a budget to work with, or maybe he has to put the names through an approval process.

I was referring to events prior to Jan. 1 - 2, 2018. Thompson was moving out of the way and Capers got fired, with those reports within a day or two of each other. Thompson's stepping down may have been the removal of an impediment to firing Capers. At that point it was just McCarthy and Murphy; getting rid of Capers was likely a meeting of the minds. Now, McCarthy / Gutekunst / Ball all report to Murphy. Gutekunst is not McCarthy's boss. I would assume McCarthy has more power and budgetary input now. So, yeah, that McCarthy fired Capers and hired Pettine would be a fair assumption, with Thompson out of the way along with Murphy's stamp of approval.

Keep in mind, Thompson was a pretty controlling guy, with a lot of "I'm the decide" type comments over the years.

Speaking of monetary decisions, reports have it that Thompson was signed through 2018. If that's the case, that would explain why he's still around. It doesn't cost nothin'. I would not expect him back next year. It doesn't cost anything to say Thompson's stepping down for health reasons. It's a kind and fan-friendly thing to say. More likely, the time for a change was nigh and the move had to be made before losing the chosen successor.

 

[Dantés]

………Dom Capers, did he land on his feet some where making tons of $$$$$$?
Those people usually do.

Google.com

 

[Deleted member 6794]

MM does not seem like the coach who would allow the GM to dictate his staff. TT looked at it as he would probably have to fire MM to get rid of Capers. Perhaps he viewed MM as a great coach and weighed his options and decided keeping MM was paramount.

Thompson had the power to make decisions over McCarthy's head. It's interesting to note that Gutekunst doesn't have that permission.

In Hayward's 2012 rookie season, he logged 6 interceptions and 21 passes defended on a 63% snap count.

In 2016, it was 7 picks and 20 PDs on a 92% snap count.

In 2017, it was 4 picks and 22 PDs on a 96% snap count.

If you take Hayward's rookie numbers and extrapolate them to a 94% snap count, you get insane numbers: 9 picks, 31 PDs.

Was Hayward free lancing and jumping routes as a rookie? Yes. Did the minuses of that style of play offset the plusses? Evidently Capers didn't like that risk-reward because that was not the style of play going forward. Was it a "stop that" rather than fine tuning away the negatives? Good chance that's exactly what happened.

Hayward actually didn't allow a touchdown and a passer rating of only 31.6 when being targeted during his rookie season. Capers definitely should have continued to use him in the same way.

I am fairly certain TT stopped being GM for mainly health reasons or he would no longer still be with the front office.

The Packers definitely benefit from still having Thompson on their front office as he's an elite scout. I'm glad he's not the general manager anymore though.