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Sunshinepacker

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I can't think of a good reason to pile on Capers now that he's gone, but I understand some folks live for that sort of thing.

Because if you pile on Capers then you can convince yourself he was the ONLY thing preventing this team from multiple Super Bowls. It's way easier to believe your team is only one bad coordinator away from turning it around rather than believe your team is an entire secondary away from turning it around.
 

Sunshinepacker

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I don't have much problem seeing picks that didn't work, or decisions that weren't great or a couple entire drafts that amounted to squat for us over the years. it happens. I can see it, easily. I'd say if we didn't have to go 5 deep at probably the 2nd most important position on the defense and Rollins and Randall continued where they left off their rookie seasons and we don't lose Sam Shields for good, nobody is saying this defense lacked talent. I'd say Daniels and Clark are as good of draft picks recently as anybody could expect from their GM. If they don't qualify as Elite, your choice, but if you told me I had to field a defense , and I had to build it around 1 or both of those guys, I'd be so happy I'd probably **** my pants. But they don't qualify as elite? ok, I'd still never deny them a roster spot on my team.

I do have a problem with saying Thompson didn't give him anything to work with. It's ********. There were plenty of guys to have a much better performing defense than we had. It's not Thompson's fault, nor is it Caper's fault a lot of them under performed, or weren't able to perform or be on the field. 1 guy gets removed from the defensive secondary in MN last year and they look like dog ****. We lose 4 and people think it doesn't have an impact on overall defense. :tup:

I understand a guy like Datone was a bad pick. I can understand why he was picked. That thinking is what brought in Sam Shields, that is what brought Nick Collins. Oh I still remember the *****ing after Collins in various forums and all the "who the **** is this guy Thompson is reaching for" comments that were absolutely everywhere. Did he end up qualifying as elite? Datone turned out to be a talented guy with b league motivation. It is also what brought us Randall, who has a bad attitude, but to deny he's talented is silly. Watch some of the plays he made, he's athletic enough to be everything a top DB in this league needs to be. I get that he was headcase here, but to say he didn't pick a talented player? ********. Talented enough that 2 guys many were clamoring as a possible replacement GM here were more than happy to trade for and add to their team. Can they not judge talent either?

Yes there were picks that turned into busts and there were a couple entire drafts that barely yielded a player, but overall, plenty of talented players have been on this roster on both sides of the ball. They all weren't available to be on the field though. Neither of which is Capers or Thompson's fault. Unlike you, and a few others. I don't have this unrelenting need to assign blame. Capers is/was a good defensive mind. I think he needed to change things to fit available players a bit more than he did at times, but at the same time, he was dealt some crappy hands because of available players week to week, not players on the roster. Thompson is a very good evaluator of talent and he's certainly had his share of misses. But They don't need to be perfect for me to recognize how good they were. Take another shot at Thompson for not finding talent. I might let you get away with 450 of them this week because I'm not that motivated. But sometimes I feel like calling BS.

The Packers never found replacements for the corners they lost, injuries destroyed what little talent they had in the secondary, and the only two truly great pass rushers Capers had were two guys who are the very definition of injury-prone. In fact, Perry was a massive disappointment until his contract year (funny how that happens). It's also worth pointing out that Capers was forced to play Matthews out of position for multiple seasons because Thompson could never figure out the whole inside linebacker thing. Thompson was good at finding talent. However, he was NEVER the only guy responsible and many of the other guys responsible got picked to run other teams. It's no slight on Thompson to say that the front office drain was just too much and his draft-centric style couldn't keep up.

Also, Randall might have been talented but the guy couldn't seem to figure out where he was supposed to be or what he was supposed to be doing on any given play. He was basically a more highly touted, defensive version of Jeff Janis.
 

Sunshinepacker

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I would disagree on the notion of the Packers not having any elite players on defense. They had the same number of defensive players on the top 100 as Minnisota. When you consider how poorly the defense played, to have any players ranked is surprising. A player like Kenny Clark, who was omitted from the list, probably would be recognized if the Packers were more successful.

Players were mis-used, out of position, and continual communication break downs. That is poor coaching making players look bad. Plain and simple

If McCarthy had Adams playing QB and Rodgers at LT that would not make them untalented. If every play the OL had a "block alphabetically by middle name" scheme the Packers offense would be ranked last and is not a reflection of the talent.

Just pointing out that Bakhtiari was #91 on that list and that Joey Bosa was ranked 16 spots below Bobby Wagner. The top-100 list isn't really the end-all be-all. Also, what year are you looking at for the top-100? For 2018 I'm seeing two Packers defenders in the top-100 (at 100 and 93) and 4 Vikings defenders in the top-100 (at 19, 46, 55, and 83), so the talent disparity seems to be a little skewed if you want to go by that list.
 

AmishMafia

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Just pointing out that Bakhtiari was #91 on that list and that Joey Bosa was ranked 16 spots below Bobby Wagner. The top-100 list isn't really the end-all be-all. Also, what year are you looking at for the top-100? For 2018 I'm seeing two Packers defenders in the top-100 (at 100 and 93) and 4 Vikings defenders in the top-100 (at 19, 46, 55, and 83), so the talent disparity seems to be a little skewed if you want to go by that list.
Micah Hyde is 62 and Casey Hayward is 59. Talent brought in by TT that some apparently believe they suddenly became talented when they left the Packers.

I agree that the list is not a ultra-accurate measure of a players value. It is certainly skewed in favor of players on successful teams. But it is much better than probowl and on par with all-pro for judging a player.

The talent has been there and it doesn't seem to be very well utilized by the coaching staff.

The Packers once won only 1 game in a season despite having 7 hall of famers on the roster. The next season the Packers hired Vince Lombardi. If they did not, those players would have never made the hall of fame and would be forgotten by now.
 
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I would disagree on the notion of the Packers not having any elite players on defense. They had the same number of defensive players on the top 100 as Minnisota.

In my opinion the top 100 list is a terrible indicator to measure talent. Taking a look at the All-Pro teams the Packers last had a player make the first team in 2011 with Woodson. Since then, only four teams (CLE, GB, NYJ and WAS) haven't had another one. Definitely not great company for the Packers.

I'd say Daniels and Clark are as good of draft picks recently as anybody could expect from their GM. If they don't qualify as Elite, your choice, but if you told me I had to field a defense , and I had to build it around 1 or both of those guys, I'd be so happy I'd probably **** my pants. But they don't qualify as elite? ok, I'd still never deny them a roster spot on my team.

I do have a problem with saying Thompson didn't give him anything to work with. It's ********. There were plenty of guys to have a much better performing defense than we had. It's not Thompson's fault, nor is it Caper's fault a lot of them under performed, or weren't able to perform or be on the field.

Daniels and Clark are definitely good players but in my opinion don't qualify as elite. I never mentioned Thompson not providing Capers anything to work with but it should be obvious to everyone that the Packers lacked talent on the defensive side of the ball compared to many other teams.

I'm still not interested in accepting injuries as an excuse as other teams suffer them as well. Heck, the Eagles even won the Super Bowl with their backup quarterback last season.

Micah Hyde is 62 and Casey Hayward is 59. Talent brought in by TT that some apparently believe they suddenly became talented when they left the Packers.

The talent has been there and it doesn't seem to be very well utilized by the coaching staff.

Well, Thompson would have had the authority to dismiss the coaching staff and retain Hayward and Hyde if he thought they were misused by Capers and his assistants. Ultimately it was him making the wrong decision.
 

Curly Calhoun

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Because if you pile on Capers then you can convince yourself he was the ONLY thing preventing this team from multiple Super Bowls. It's way easier to believe your team is only one bad coordinator away from turning it around rather than believe your team is an entire secondary away from turning it around.

I understand legitimate criticism while he was here, but he's been gone for some time now, so this seems pointless to me.

Perhaps we should start a "Fire Dan Devine" thread...…:>)_
 
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I understand legitimate criticism while he was here, but he's been gone for some time now, so this seems pointless to me.

It seems you misunderstood the point of the post you replied to, which was that the Packers struggles on defense had its roots way deeper than Capers not being able to coordinate a decent unit.
 

rmontro

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I understand legitimate criticism while he was here, but he's been gone for some time now, so this seems pointless to me
Not entirely. This will be our first season without Capers coming up, and I'm sure a lot of the optimism among fans is there because they think Pettine will be doing a much better job in comparison.
 

Mondio

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and the Packers won a super bowl with like half of a game day roster on IR too. I know people can win with injuries. I also know that not being able to find a healthy body until you get 4 or 5 deep at a position is going to have some affects, especially when you're paying for an all pro who's career was ended at that position too. Lots of teams have injuries and the overwhelming majority don't even make the playoffs let alone and NFCCG. Like I said, if Rollins and Randall pick up where they left off and Shields doesn't have a career ender in GB, nobody is saying this defense didn't have talent. and I'd love for the eagles to play this season with their "back up" QB again this year. I'd take the under on 11 wins for them too. The timing was perfect for them last year. Impressive certainly, and also an anomaly. but i realize exceptions can be rules when it serves your purpose :)
 

Sunshinepacker

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I understand legitimate criticism while he was here, but he's been gone for some time now, so this seems pointless to me.

Perhaps we should start a "Fire Dan Devine" thread...…:>)_

I'm still on the "give Rhodes one more year" train myself....(disclosure: I am not really on said train. This reply was for entertainment purposes only and in no way should be read to imply the endorsement of Ray Rhodes as a potential head coaching candidate).
 

Sunshinepacker

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Micah Hyde is 62 and Casey Hayward is 59. Talent brought in by TT that some apparently believe they suddenly became talented when they left the Packers.

I agree that the list is not a ultra-accurate measure of a players value. It is certainly skewed in favor of players on successful teams. But it is much better than probowl and on par with all-pro for judging a player.

The talent has been there and it doesn't seem to be very well utilized by the coaching staff.

The Packers once won only 1 game in a season despite having 7 hall of famers on the roster. The next season the Packers hired Vince Lombardi. If they did not, those players would have never made the hall of fame and would be forgotten by now.

And I'll ask again, who were you a fan of sitting on the bench while Hyde was playing? Burnett or HaHa? Hayward was a very good player while here. THOMPSON chose not to sign him, not Capers.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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And I'll ask again, who were you a fan of sitting on the bench while Hyde was playing? Burnett or HaHa? Hayward was a very good player while here. THOMPSON chose not to sign him, not Capers.

TT may have chosen not to resign Hayward and at the time most fans seemed to agree with that decision. However, TT's decision was also probably based on conversations with Dom and other coaches to determine if they thought Hayward was worth resigning. People always want to point to the GM when a bad or good decision is made , but the coaches I assume have some input into personnel decisions and they too should be given credit or blame for such decisions. TT is also not the man in charge of coaching guys like Hayward, just drafting them. So if they shine, fail or something in between, coaches have a part in that as well. Simply put, there usually is more than one person to congratulate or blame when it comes to players being successes or failures in Green Bay.
 

AmishMafia

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In my opinion the top 100 list is a terrible indicator to measure talent. Taking a look at the All-Pro teams the Packers last had a player make the first team in 2011 with Woodson. Since then, only four teams (CLE, GB, NYJ and WAS) haven't had another one. Definitely not great company for the Packers.
Soooooo, Aaron Rodgers doesn't make the list? How good is the list?

Player success is based on talent as well as coaching. Personally, I think coaching is far more important, and I think Belichick is the poster boy for that. Year after year his teams excell with different players. And most of his FA losses fail with their new teams.

I never mentioned Thompson not providing Capers anything to work with but it should be obvious to everyone that the Packers lacked talent on the defensive side of the ball.
No. It is not obvious.

The most talented team in the NFL in 1958 was the GBP with an incredible 7 future HOFers. Yet they won only a single game that year. Coaching is important!

You equate a lack of success simply to no talent. I disagree with that.

I see a lot of talent on defense. I see aggressive play and very good individual skills. I see the Packers play good for a bunch of plays and even series or two. Then I see a WR run free and DBs looking at each other confused. I have seen defensive gameplans that left me scratching my head. I see defensive players pointing fingers and disgruntled. I see players look good as rookies and then seem to fade and not develop. These are all coaching issues.
Well, Thompson would have had the authority to dismiss the coaching staff and retain Hayward and Hyde if he thought they were misused by Capers and his assistants. Ultimately it was him making the wrong decision.
The first valid statement you have made.

However I do like MM and can see why TT kept him. MM should have pushed Capers to the curb 4 seasons ago and TT should have pushed for it.
 

AmishMafia

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And I'll ask again, who were you a fan of sitting on the bench while Hyde was playing? Burnett or HaHa? Hayward was a very good player while here. THOMPSON chose not to sign him, not Capers.
It doesnt matter if TT resigned him or not. It doesnt matter who would have sat.

The discussion is regarding the level of talent on defense.

The point is, he is a talented player. For the purpose of this argument, that is all that matters.

Actually, maybe you are helping make my argument. If a all pro player had difficulty cracking the starting lineup, what does that say about the talent level?

It comes down to coaching. Clearly Hyde is very talented and we have had problems in our secondary for some time. We can say the same about Hayward as well. Yet neither distinguished themselves while playing for Capers. Do you believe they suddenly became talented when they left? Or do you believe their talent was not developed or properly utilized in GB?
 

Mondio

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I see a lot of talent on defense. I see aggressive play and very good individual skills. I see the Packers play good for a bunch of plays and even series or two. Then I see a WR run free and DBs looking at each other confused. I have seen defensive gameplans that left me scratching my head. I see defensive players pointing fingers and disgruntled. I see players look good as rookies and then seem to fade and not develop. These are all coaching issues.

you can say that again
 
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and the Packers won a super bowl with like half of a game day roster on IR too. I know people can win with injuries. I also know that not being able to find a healthy body until you get 4 or 5 deep at a position is going to have some affects, especially when you're paying for an all pro who's career was ended at that position too. Lots of teams have injuries and the overwhelming majority don't even make the playoffs let alone and NFCCG. Like I said, if Rollins and Randall pick up where they left off and Shields doesn't have a career ender in GB, nobody is saying this defense didn't have talent. and I'd love for the eagles to play this season with their "back up" QB again this year. I'd take the under on 11 wins for them too. The timing was perfect for them last year. Impressive certainly, and also an anomaly. but i realize exceptions can be rules when it serves your purpose :)

First of all Shields never made the All-Pro team. I understand there's a drop-off in performance to be expected once several starters at a position have to miss time because of injuries but there's no reason it has to be as steep as with the Packers in recent years. Thompson mostly relying on undrafted rookies without any experience to be the primary backups resulted in the unit struggling though.

I'm aware the Eagles winning the Super Bowl with a backup quarterback being an exception but every champion had to endure injuries at other positions with backups contributing in a significant way.

TT may have chosen not to resign Hayward and at the time most fans seemed to agree with that decision. However, TT's decision was also probably based on conversations with Dom and other coaches to determine if they thought Hayward was worth resigning. People always want to point to the GM when a bad or good decision is made , but the coaches I assume have some input into personnel decisions and they too should be given credit or blame for such decisions. TT is also not the man in charge of coaching guys like Hayward, just drafting them. So if they shine, fail or something in between, coaches have a part in that as well. Simply put, there usually is more than one person to congratulate or blame when it comes to players being successes or failures in Green Bay.

True, but ultimately Thompson made the decision to rather stick with Capers than keep Hayward and Hyde. In hindsight that was a mistake.

Soooooo, Aaron Rodgers doesn't make the list? How good is the list?

I was solely talking about defensive players. Rodgers was named first team All-Pro in 2014.

You equate a lack of success simply to no talent. I disagree with that.

I never mentioned the Packers not having any talent on defense. But in my opinion they haven't had any elite player on that side of the ball in several seasons.

Actually, maybe you are helping make my argument. If a all pro player had difficulty cracking the starting lineup, what does that say about the talent level?

The reason Hyde was mostly a backup in Green Bay definitely wasn't the Packers featuring several All-Pros in the secondary.
 

Mondio

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so sam Shields was never an all pro, point being if he is not lost for good in GB and Randall and Rollins aren't a walking mash team and pick up where they left of their rookie seasons, NOBODY is saying this team didn't have talent, because at the end of 2014, PLENTY of people were saying they had quite a bit of it with the same people. I'm waiting for the day you argue that Rodgers doesn't have MVP talent because he's not currently the MVP
 

rmontro

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However, TT's decision was also probably based on conversations with Dom and other coaches to determine if they thought Hayward was worth resigning.
Maybe, but he didn't show much interest in what Rodgers has thought when he's advocated for keeping players. I know that's not the same as a coach, but maybe TT was following his own agenda.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Maybe, but he didn't show much interest in what Rodgers has thought when he's advocated for keeping players. I know that's not the same as a coach, but maybe TT was following his own agenda.

I don't know. That seems like a pretty big stretch to say: "Since TT didn't consult with players, he didn't consult with his coaching staff either." Also, if you are referring to Jordy, that was done on Gute's watch.
 

rmontro

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I don't know. That seems like a pretty big stretch to say: "Since TT didn't consult with players, he didn't consult with his coaching staff either."
Rodgers isn't just any player though. I guess in Thompson's eye he might be, he might lump them all together under one "This is an administrative decision, players have no say in it".
 

rmontro

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I find that either-or proposition to be a little bizarre.
Yeah, I mean we don't know that Capers wanted to get rid of Hayward and Hyde. That's just speculation, isn't it? For all we know, he would have liked to have kept them. I don't know why he wouldn't. The only reason I can see to let them go is financial considerations - TT thought he could get the same or more for less money with younger players.
 
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