Wahle / Rivera ... FINAL TAKE.

[warhawk]

Exactly Zero, good point.

and Porky said:

You can't by a Championship. It's only happen one time and that was the 49ers. What happen too them. They went into cap hell 4 years later and had a couple of bad seasons. They got out of it for a few years did nothing in the playoffs and are back to square 1.

Isn't that exactly where the Packers are right now, Porky, at square one? Aren't they now the Green Bay 49er's, except with Brett Favre at the helm?
My point is that they didn't have to be.

And there's no guaranteeing that Rodgers, based on a couple of pre-season games, is going to turn out to be the next Brett Favre. As a matter of fact, I know that he won't.

My point is that if you have Favre, you use Favre and build around him now, so that you can win NOW! I know PLENTY of NFL team would have tried to win now with Brett Favre on their team if they had him, yet TT seems to have not cared if he came back at all because his plan was a total reclaimation project from the beginning.

Why is it all or nothing with you TT defenders. Isn't it possible that TT could have kept Wahle last year, added a receiver and a guard this year, and just focused on the defense (and a kicker) with the rest of his picks instead of fiddle ****ing around with all of these players who aren't even on the team anymore because they couldn't make it?

Nobody has yet given me an explanation to this problem that made any sense!

"My point is that if you have Brett Favre"

That's a big part of the equation here. I guess TT could have called on the NFL to put the draft back until the BIG DECISION.

You seem to be missing the part about BF taking forever to decide if he was even coming back. That would have been smart. Build around a guy you don't know is coming back or not. Plus, if he does it's for a year, two max.
Great place to throw all your marbles.

Your looking thru 20/20 glasses now when back not long ago this issue was a whole lot fuzzier.

 

[TomAllen]

Porky said,

Green Bay goes out and spends money on Terrell Owens (yes only real true WR out there this year and we need that like you said)

Like I said Porky..you TT guys are all or nothing. Nobody said throw the bank at a bunch of FA's..but if TT kept some of the people that have been good for the Pack, like Wahle...AND drafted for the future...then you're closer to the mark. But you'd rather throw out the baby with the bathwater..and like i said...it's all or nothing.

Porky also said,

Ignorance will probably block you from seeing any sense.

Yes Porky, your ignorance is blocking me from seeing any sense in your post.

and Warhawk said..

That's a big part of the equation here. I guess TT could have called on the NFL to put the draft back until the BIG DECISION.

Warhawk, let's not have that argument, shall we?

I think Favre would have made his decision sooner if TT showed him they he was committed to winning with him (Favre) at the helm.

 

[porky88]

Like I said Porky..you TT guys are all or nothing. Nobody said throw the bank at a bunch of FA's..but if TT kept some of the people that have been good for the Pack, like Wahle...AND drafted for the future...then you're closer to the mark. But you'd rather throw out the baby with the bathwater..

You really think keeping having Wahle instead of Pickett, Woodson, and Manuel and then using most of the draft picks on defense would turn the Packers into a Super Bowl team?

I'm not a TT guy either. I'm supporting my GM and I've liked this off season so far. I wasn't big on last off season but I've liked what I've seen.

I'm a Green Bay Packer guy though.

I put the Packers above any of the players.

 

[TomAllen]

Porky said,

I'm a Green Bay Packer guy though.

I put the Packers above any of the players.

Which "players" are you referring to Porky? I don't understand.

 

[porky88]

Porky said,

I'm a Green Bay Packer guy though.

I put the Packers above any of the players.

Which "players" are you referring to Porky? I don't understand.

Every player.

By the way let's stay on subject.

You really think keeping having Wahle instead of Pickett, Woodson, and Manuel and then using most of the draft picks on defense would turn the Packers into a Super Bowl team?

You think doing the above would put this team above the rest in the NFC North and make us contenders.

 

[DePack]

Porky said,

I'm a Green Bay Packer guy though.

I put the Packers above any of the players.

Which "players" are you referring to Porky? I don't understand.

Every player.

By the way let's stay on subject.

You really think keeping having Wahle instead of Pickett, Woodson, and Manuel and then using most of the draft picks on defense would turn the Packers into a Super Bowl team?

You think doing the above would put this team above the rest in the NFC North and make us contenders.

Actually the original subject was COULD TT have signed Mike Wahle.


To me TT is 50-50. Sh1tty first year. Good second year. He has been here 2 years Dakota. A GM does most of his work in the offseason. He's been here two offseasons

I get tired of the TT lovers making excuses for him. Let him stand on his record. You guys have built-in excuses for him. The next one will be "Favre staying kept him from rebuilding...let's give him a couple more years". BS....you say the talent is better....you say our coaching sucked and now it's better. No excuses. We win at least 10 wins or else.

 

[tromadz]

tt-lovers or...rational people?

people who wanna blow up a GM after 1 year...is...somethin.

 

[porky88]

Why is it

TT Lovers
Sherman Basher
Sherman Lovers
Sherman Haters
TT Basher
TT Haters

Where is the logic in that. Everyone is voicing opinions. Currently there is no right or wrong answer to "How good of a job Ted Thompson is doing"

We'll know in 2 more years.

I agree with De Pack. He had a bad first off season and a solid 2nd one on paper. I think he's more than capable of building a solid team for the future in the next off season. It is what it is. A wait and see project right now. We'll have a lot of money to spend next off season as well. I give Thompson credit for setting GB up nicely to bring in good players in back to back off seasons. I'm hoping for a young up and coming RB next year.

 

[TomAllen]

Porky said,

I'm a Green Bay Packer guy though.

I put the Packers above any of the players.

Which "players" are you referring to Porky? I don't understand.

Every player.

By the way let's stay on subject.

You really think keeping having Wahle instead of Pickett, Woodson, and Manuel and then using most of the draft picks on defense would turn the Packers into a Super Bowl team?

You think doing the above would put this team above the rest in the NFC North and make us contenders.

I think that if TT kept Wahle last year then he wouldn't have had to draft and sign via FA so many offensive lineman to see if they would stick on the o-line (which they haven't, by the way.). He could have drafted 1 or 2 players as utility lineman for depth, and signed a vet to fill the remaining o-guard spot. He already would have had Clifton, Wahle, Wells, Moll (or whoever won the job), & Tauscher.

RB's--no need there
WR--draft Jennings and sign a better Vet. Should have gotten Lelie from Denver in the Javon Walker fiasco, or Moulds from Buffalo.

That leaves primarily the defensive side of the ball with plenty of room in which TT could have concentrated on in the draft, and select FA's.

What is so hard to understand about this scenario?

This way, Favre has protection. The Pack would have a running game, and thereby a passing game. And TT would be pretty much in the same postion he was in this year in order to build the defense. And in good shape going into next year!

and oh yeah...he should have tried harder to keep Bates!

 

[Lare]

You really think keeping having Wahle instead of Pickett, Woodson, and Manuel and then using most of the draft picks on defense would turn the Packers into a Super Bowl team?

You think doing the above would put this team above the rest in the NFC North and make us contenders.

Are you saying that if TT would have signed Wahle we'd have been so much better that we'd have had a much better record resulting in a worse draft position and a worse chance at success in the future? Or are you saying that if TT would have signed Wahle we couldn't have afforded to sign Pickett, Manual and Woodson?

I'm just wondering why this has to be an "Either/Or" proposition?

 

[TomAllen]

That's what I'd like to know too, Lare. :wink:

 

[pyledriver80]

You really think keeping having Wahle instead of Pickett, Woodson, and Manuel and then using most of the draft picks on defense would turn the Packers into a Super Bowl team?

You think doing the above would put this team above the rest in the NFC North and make us contenders.

Are you saying that if TT would have signed Wahle we'd have been so much better that we'd have had a much better record resulting in a worse draft position and a worse chance at success in the future? Or are you saying that if TT would have signed Wahle we couldn't have afforded to sign Pickett, Manual and Woodson?

I'm just wondering why this has to be an "Either/Or" proposition?

This is a very good question but you won't get an answer Lare. They will just keep changing thier argument. I can't even count the excuses certain posters have made for TT.


Cut through the **** and it is what it is. TT blew re-signing Wahle because he stated "Guards are easily replaceable" and it back fired. Wahle stated that had Sherman stuck around he would most likely have resigned. Aftyer all the excuses you are left with the one thing that TRULY MATTERS....a 4-12 team!

These TT guys can't even be consistent in what they say. The funniest one was if Wahle had stuck around we wouldn't have landed Hawk, are you serious! Lets pat TT on the back for stinking it up and getting a high draft pick. This is the most insane logic I've ever heard.

Then they say this team is loaded with Talent in one breath, but keeping Wahle would have made no difference, in another.


Or the argument that keeping Wahle would have put us in Cap Hell and we would struggle for the next few years BUT then they state in 3-4 years this team will be good because of TT's "Talent Evaluating." Isn't Cap Hell, and TT rebuilding the same thing? Either way it's going to take a few years peryour admittence.



Can we please be consistent or just come out and say you are just a blind TT lover.

This rebuilding stuff is garbage. Teams don't rebuild anymore, they reload. This isn't the 1970's anymore. With FA it is easy to replace certain parts of your team without dismantling the core. Our core is Brett Favre, Donald Driver, Nick Barnett and Al Harris. TT neglected the main cog for Brett to be effective however, the O-Line. It was a terrible oversight.

 

[porky88]

You really think keeping having Wahle instead of Pickett, Woodson, and Manuel and then using most of the draft picks on defense would turn the Packers into a Super Bowl team?

You think doing the above would put this team above the rest in the NFC North and make us contenders.

Are you saying that if TT would have signed Wahle we'd have been so much better that we'd have had a much better record resulting in a worse draft position and a worse chance at success in the future? Or are you saying that if TT would have signed Wahle we couldn't have afforded to sign Pickett, Manual and Woodson?

I'm just wondering why this has to be an "Either/Or" proposition?

I'm not saying either or.

I'm asking TA what he things of that scenario and I still didn't get a definite answer/opinion.

I will say If we re-signed Mike Wahle I don't think Thompson would of went out and got Woodson for that kind of money.

I'll also add if we signed Wahle, we still don't make the playoffs and we still win 6 games at tops.

I have no proof at all. It's a "What if" question but I can give my analysis. Had GB signed LaVar Arrington, they wouldn’t of signed Charles Woodson. That I believe is a fact and I’ve heard that somewhere. I’ll throw Wahle in the same boat and say if we re-signed Wahle a year ago, I don’t think Thompson spends big $$$ on Charles Woodson.

I'm not saying not signing Wahle was good. I clearly said it was a mistake and Thompson should not get a free pass but I agree with what Bruce said, not signing Wahle shouldn't bring upon Thompson’s dismissal as GM of the Packers.

As for the post above yours...

What does Ashley Lelie bring too the table that you like so much? He couldn't beat out an aging Rod Smith for a starting job and he has done very little in this league. What makes him so special. What makes him more special than Gardner or Ferguson. He appears to fall in that same boat. An underachiever who has never broke through in the NFL. Atlanta whom just received Lelie via trade, has him listed as their #3 WR and they're in need of a receiver more than Green Bay is. Greg Jennings arguably has had a better camp his rookie year than Lelie has had his entire career.

Eric Moulds would of been a poor signing in my opinion as well. He's aging and wanted big money. He signed a nice contract with Houston. In a year or two will Moulds still be producing like he has in the past? I doubt it. He's way past his prime. I would give him a slight upgrade over Ferguson and Gardner but I wouldn't give him the money he was asking for. Maybe if he wanted more of a reasonable deal. Also would a GM be willing to redo Driver’s contract. Again we don’t know but I’ll throw that out and see what others think. I don’t believe Thompson restructures Drivers deal and we have an unhappy WR. I rather pay Driver than Moulds.

I'll meet you in between though and say I would of re-signed Mike Wahle but I wouldn't of gone after any WR in this years free agency outside of Terrell Owens. None of them are a difference maker. Would you want that baggage though? We' will never know and I'm sure TO isn't "Packer People" but if you give him a contract with incentives, I'm sure that'll be enough motivation for him to put up the big numbers he does and will do this season.

I would of re-signed, Wahle for sure but that didn‘t happen and time has past. I don't expect a Super Bowl this season. I would like one but I don‘t see one. With or without Wahle this year, I don‘t think we have a SB team.. Even with the above scenario TA gave, I don't see a team better than 9-7 there. Right now I see us at 7-9 which would be a decent start too the McCarthy era and something too build off of in my opinion. It’s how he builds off of this team that will define his era as GM.

 

[tromadz]

Why is it

TT Lovers
Sherman Basher
Sherman Lovers
Sherman Haters
TT Basher
TT Haters

I hear ya, man. I get offended when called a TT-Lover and a Sherman-hater.

Im a packers fan who doesnt agree with someone, so I have to be labeled?

I supported Sherman during his tenure until I started not liking what I was seeing(last 2 years)

 

[all about da packers]

Why is it

TT Lovers
Sherman Basher
Sherman Lovers
Sherman Haters
TT Basher
TT Haters

Sir, I salute you!

 

[porky88]

This rebuilding stuff is garbage. Teams don't rebuild anymore, they reload. This isn't the 1970's anymore. With FA it is easy to replace certain parts of your team without dismantling the core. Our core is Brett Favre, Donald Driver, Nick Barnett and Al Harris. TT neglected the main cog for Brett to be effective however, the O-Line. It was a terrible oversight.

What about San Francisco? They were good and now they're bad. How about Chicago? Once good, then bad and now good again. New England went too the Super Bowl, had a couple of rough seasons and then won 3 out of 4 Super Bowls. Philadelphia is going through a similar phase. The Cowboys really had to turn it around.

If your referring me as a TT lover then you probably need to go back and re read most of my posts where I clearly state, not re signing Wahle was a huge mistake.

I'd also like to know where someone said anything about re-signing Wahle costing us AJ Hawk??? If it was said it was thrown out as an example I'm sure.

I'd like to know where anyone said they rather have AJ Hawk than Mike Wahle?

I didn't say it so if your accusing me of saying it then put on your reading glasses and re read some posts.

Where did anyone STATE that re-signine Wahle would of put us in cap hell????

I said you can't buy a Super Bowl in referring to the players everyone wanted GB to sign this year because we had all this cap.

 

[tromadz]

its something a user who no longer is allowed to post here started, and unfortunately his name calling ideas still linger...

 

[pyledriver80]

Why is it

TT Lovers
Sherman Basher
Sherman Lovers
Sherman Haters
TT Basher
TT Haters

I hear ya, man. I get offended when called a TT-Lover and a Sherman-hater.

Im a packers fan who doesnt agree with someone, so I have to be labeled?

I supported Sherman during his tenure until I started not liking what I was seeing(last 2 years)

Pleaseeeee......so you didn't like the what Sherman the GM was doing when the Packers were winning BUT you like what you saw out of the 4-12 team that was on the field under TT.


You're logic makes perfect sense however. I liked Sherman because we won games and made the playoffs, I DON'T like TT because we lost 12 games and will likely be a 7-9 team or worse this year.

 

[tromadz]

you're right, I should have been content with yearly trips to the playoffs, followed by an immediate collapse. I should have had a Sherman jersey. Right.

Dont respond to my posts, please.

Ill take a little losing if it leads to BIG winning (you know, in the playoffs, where they play in that one game at the end). If it doesnt, then eventually TT\MM will be on my 'list' too, but I they get more than ONE year to do something. Sherman had more than one, right?

Dont ever respond to my posts, please.

 

[TomAllen]

I'm not saying either or.

I'm asking TA what he things of that scenario and I still didn't get a definite answer/opinion

Look eleven posts above this post Porky, and you'll see that I answered your question. I don't know why some people don't read posts! IMO, your post is rambling and makes no sense.

Moulds/Lelie would be good veteran receivers at #2 or #3 that would have been a better option than Gardner and Boreigter..and Ferguson for that matter. Jennings would have been drafted and been #2 or #3.

I don't know why you love Woodson so much. He is getting old and he is often hurt. If TT didn't get him he could have gotten Ty Law or somebody else. I STILL don't understand the point you are trying to make about if TT signed Wahle last year?

The O-Line would be much better..That's what would have happened. If you want to know more, read my post 11 posts above this one.

 

[Zero2Cool]

When I was driving home getting prepped to take my beating for being dead wrong on the Wahle Rivera debate I never expected the thread to reach nine pages. Crazy.

 

[porky88]

Look eleven posts above this post Porky, and you'll see that I answered your question. I don't know why some people don't read posts! IMO, your post is rambling and makes no sense.

I addressed Moulds and Lelie and Wahle already.

 

[pyledriver80]

Porky do you think if we had Wahle, that we would have gotten AJ Hawk in the draft this year? Wanting Wahle and having him are different things. If we had retained him, I think we would have eeked out more games last year, and our whole off season would have shaken out differently.

Seems like that is what was said.


As far as where resigning Wahle would have put us in Cap Hell was said.......Please go back and read NUMEROUS other posts.


Your idea of rebuilding is strange however. You are saying that TT is rebuilding this team and it will take a few years for it to pay off. It seems to me we have a QB with over a decades experience and he brought in Woodson who is on the downhill side of his career. How is this building for the future? Isn't this reloading?

You threw out options that only fit your argument. Teams like the Panthers are competitive year in and year out because they patch holes that need repaired. The Steelers had a bad year or two but were not "Rebuilding" and were competitive almost every year.

The "let's just start from scratch" approach isn't the norm anymore. Any team can make the right moves in the off-season and be competitive.

And Trom, don't talk about name-calling because you are the worst at it. I may call someone a "TT Lover" but I don't call them "A F*ckface" like you do. Then again I also don't whine to the mods about every little thing either. I'm sorry you don't like my sig.

 

[porky88]

Porky do you think if we had Wahle, that we would have gotten AJ Hawk in the draft this year? Wanting Wahle and having him are different things. If we had retained him, I think we would have eeked out more games last year, and our whole off season would have shaken out differently.

Seems like that is what was said.

I did not post the above. So don't put the blame on me. If you didn't and I mis read yours or TA's posts, then I am sorry.

If I had to choose Wahle or Hawk, I'd take Wahle any day. He's proven.

As far as where resigning Wahle would have put us in Cap Hell was said.......Please go back and read NUMEROUS other posts.

I don't recall but I will go back. I never said it'd put us in cap hell. I believe it couldn't of been done or would of taken the release of several other players. I now know it could be done and I said, it was a mistake BUT the guy shouldn't lose his job as a GM over one mistake. Ron Wolf said many times his big mistake was Bryce Paup. Ted Thompson's is Mike Wahle.

Your idea of rebuilding is strange however. You are saying that TT is rebuilding this team and it will take a few years for it to pay off. It seems to me we have a QB with over a decades experience and he brought in Woodson who is on the downhill side of his career. How is this building for the future? Isn't this reloading?

I think he's trying too do both. 20+ Draft picks in 2 years is rebuilding. Woodson is only 29 and his best year are likely gone but he can still give you 4 solid good years. I think Thompson is trying to build a team over the course of 3 off seasons. I think year 1 was cleaning up the mess. He didn't do much to help the mess but he did get rid of many players that needed to go. Cledius Hunt for one. Year 2 is this year and from the looks of things he focused on the Defense. Year 3 (and this is just what I would do) I think he should go out and sign a RB that can run a one cut well, a DT (possibly through the Draft), a Guard and add depth to the offensive line.

You threw out options that only fit your argument. Teams like the Panthers are competitive year in and year out because they patch holes that need repaired. The Steelers had a bad year or two but were not "Rebuilding" and were competitive almost every year.

We currently had one bad year. Pittsburgh had a few up and down years. 6-10 in 1999, and 9-7 the year after. 13-3 after that. 10-5-1 the next. 6-10 after that. So Pittsburgh was and up and down team before Ben Roelisberger got there. I believe GB will pick in the 10 to 15 range in the 2007 Draft and climb out likely with Rodgers as our QB and hopefully go 9-7 and then make a run at the wild card.

The "let's just start from scratch" approach isn't the norm anymore. Any team can make the right moves in the off-season and be competitive.

Since Free Agency started, only 1 team has really went out and bought a Super Bowl in one off season. The 1994 49ers and they were coming off of back to back NFC Title loses to the Cowboys.

Most of the teams that have built dynasties or won a Super Bowl this decade have done it through the course of many off seasons. St. Louis, Tampa Bay, Baltimore, New England and even the Steelers. NFL is a copy cat league and I think Thompson is trying to copy the above teams philosophies.

 

[pyledriver80]

Porky do you think if we had Wahle, that we would have gotten AJ Hawk in the draft this year? Wanting Wahle and having him are different things. If we had retained him, I think we would have eeked out more games last year, and our whole off season would have shaken out differently.

Seems like that is what was said.

I did not post the above. So don't put the blame on me. If you didn't and I mis read yours or TA's posts, then I am sorry.

If I had to choose Wahle or Hawk, I'd take Wahle any day. He's proven.

As far as where resigning Wahle would have put us in Cap Hell was said.......Please go back and read NUMEROUS other posts.

I don't recall but I will go back. I never said it'd put us in cap hell. I believe it couldn't of been done or would of taken the release of several other players. I now know it could be done and I said, it was a mistake BUT the guy shouldn't lose his job as a GM over one mistake. Ron Wolf said many times his big mistake was Bryce Paup. Ted Thompson's is Mike Wahle.

[quote:11pdq1ug]Your idea of rebuilding is strange however. You are saying that TT is rebuilding this team and it will take a few years for it to pay off. It seems to me we have a QB with over a decades experience and he brought in Woodson who is on the downhill side of his career. How is this building for the future? Isn't this reloading?

I think he's trying too do both. 20+ Draft picks in 2 years is rebuilding. Woodson is only 29 and his best year are likely gone but he can still give you 4 solid good years. I think Thompson is trying to build a team over the course of 3 off seasons. I think year 1 was cleaning up the mess. He didn't do much to help the mess but he did get rid of many players that needed to go. Cledius Hunt for one. Year 2 is this year and from the looks of things he focused on the Defense. Year 3 (and this is just what I would do) I think he should go out and sign a RB that can run a one cut well, a DT (possibly through the Draft), a Guard and add depth to the offensive line.

You threw out options that only fit your argument. Teams like the Panthers are competitive year in and year out because they patch holes that need repaired. The Steelers had a bad year or two but were not "Rebuilding" and were competitive almost every year.

We currently had one bad year. Pittsburgh had a few up and down years. 6-10 in 1999, and 9-7 the year after. 13-3 after that. 10-5-1 the next. 6-10 after that. So Pittsburgh was and up and down team before Ben Roelisberger got there. I believe GB will pick in the 10 to 15 range in the 2007 Draft and climb out likely with Rodgers as our QB and hopefully go 9-7 and then make a run at the wild card.

The "let's just start from scratch" approach isn't the norm anymore. Any team can make the right moves in the off-season and be competitive.

Since Free Agency started, only 1 team has really went out and bought a Super Bowl in one off season. The 1994 49ers and they were coming off of back to back NFC Title loses to the Cowboys.

Most of the teams that have built dynasties or won a Super Bowl this decade have done it through the course of many off seasons. St. Louis, Tampa Bay, Baltimore, New England and even the Steelers. NFL is a copy cat league and I think Thompson is trying to copy the above teams philosophies.[/quote:11pdq1ug]


Ok, so whats the difference between Sherman and TT?