The trenches

[TJV]

What are you going to do?

Wait until you translate that into a coherent post?

 

[mradtke66]

AND draft another 300-330# stud in the first round.

This is why TT tends to draft defensive linemen early. They are rare. If you can find this stud at (what are we drafting, 27th this year?) our late pick, I'd like to see him. Especially since 300+ pound guys who can effectively rush the passer are even more rare. And the ones that can do both are the rarest of all.

Actually have enough big guys to play 3 Dlinemen the majority of the time...

Dude, not this again.

If we were a 4-3 team instead of a 3-4, our 4-2 nickel defense would be the same personnel as our 2-4 nickel, because those are our best pass rushers.

In Base with a simple base call (cover-2, cover-3, cover-4, no blitz), you OLBs "take turns" in their roles. One has a job basically the same as a 4-3 weak-side defensive end, ie, speed rusher. The other is basically a 4-3 SOLB: mug the tight end. Should the TE motion to the other side and the strength of the formation change, the OLBs will swap roles. (This is more than a little over-simplified.)

Harking back to your old comment from a year or two ago, this is why the 3 linemen don't have to do the job of 4 for the scheme to work right. At most, they need to equal 3.2 4-3 linemen. The OLBs, which are typically undersized college defensive ends, only need to be about 0.8 of a lineman. This still gives you approximately a lineman scale of 4.0 on any given play.

You can see how this works with Seattle's hybrid scheme. They are running a 3-4 in spirit, a 4-3 in personnel. To get the same look with the Packer front 7 do the following:

1) Shade our NT into an A-gap as a 1-tech instead head-up on the center (0-tech.)

2) Put Daniels as a 3-tech opposite the shaded nose.

3) Pick one of outside linebackers (Matthews, Peppers, doesn't matter) as the right/weak defensive end. In the Seattle scheme, they call this player the LEO.

4) Have Datone stay at about 280 and line him up at right/strong end. Somewhere between a 5-technique and 7.

5) Ryan and Barringon are your WOLB and MLB. Put them where ever you prefer.

6) Pick one of our current OLBs and put him at SOLB. We don't really have an ideal person for this role. Matthews would be best, but this guy doesn't really get to blitz much. His job is to defend the outside (sweeps) and jam the TE on pass plays, and then probably turn and turn with him.

Do we have outstanding OLBs? YES! thats great. You can see where thompson puts value inour scheme.

That's because the 3-4 is built around your OLBs being your designated pass rushers, which is the high-value position. TT putting value there is the correct approach.

 

[Poppa San]

Ignore is my friend...Ignore is my friend...Ignore is my friend...Ignore is my friend...zzzzzzzzzz

 

[mradtke66]

Ignore is my friend...Ignore is my friend...Ignore is my friend...Ignore is my friend...zzzzzzzzzz

I.

Just.

Can't.

Help. It.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

This is why TT tends to draft defensive linemen early. They are rare. If you can find this stud at (what are we drafting, 27th this year?) our late pick, I'd like to see him. Especially since 300+ pound guys who can effectively rush the passer are even more rare. And the ones that can do both are the rarest of all.



Dude, not this again.

If we were a 4-3 team instead of a 3-4, our 4-2 nickel defense would be the same personnel as our 2-4 nickel, because those are our best pass rushers.

In Base with a simple base call (cover-2, cover-3, cover-4, no blitz), you OLBs "take turns" in their roles. One has a job basically the same as a 4-3 weak-side defensive end, ie, speed rusher. The other is basically a 4-3 SOLB: mug the tight end. Should the TE motion to the other side and the strength of the formation change, the OLBs will swap roles. (This is more than a little over-simplified.)

Harking back to your old comment from a year or two ago, this is why the 3 linemen don't have to do the job of 4 for the scheme to work right. At most, they need to equal 3.2 4-3 linemen. The OLBs, which are typically undersized college defensive ends, only need to be about 0.8 of a lineman. This still gives you approximately a lineman scale of 4.0 on any given play.

You can see how this works with Seattle's hybrid scheme. They are running a 3-4 in spirit, a 4-3 in personnel. To get the same look with the Packer front 7 do the following:

1) Shade our NT into an A-gap as a 1-tech instead head-up on the center (0-tech.)

2) Put Daniels as a 3-tech opposite the shaded nose.

3) Pick one of outside linebackers (Matthews, Peppers, doesn't matter) as the right/weak defensive end. In the Seattle scheme, they call this player the LEO.

4) Have Datone stay at about 280 and line him up at right/strong end. Somewhere between a 5-technique and 7.

5) Ryan and Barringon are your WOLB and MLB. Put them where ever you prefer.

6) Pick one of our current OLBs and put him at SOLB. We don't really have an ideal person for this role. Matthews would be best, but this guy doesn't really get to blitz much. His job is to defend the outside (sweeps) and jam the TE on pass plays, and then probably turn and turn with him.



That's because the 3-4 is built around your OLBs being your designated pass rushers, which is the high-value position. TT putting value there is the correct approach.

Ok. So you admit Seattle runs a 3-4 but are 4-3 at heart..... You could easily say that about my ideas. You could also say that Greenbay plays a 3-4 but is a 2-4 at heart. I think theres a reason our 3-4 is still hit or miss after nearly a decade.
"we need two good OLBs"... I say we have 2 hall of famers. "We need a 280 pound DE"... I say they cant stop the run, and they cant collapse the pocket without help... On and on. Our scheme rarely allows saftys to get into the pass rush. I believe its because we dont have enough beef up fromt, taking the trenches.

Hear me out.

A real NT. Our old 4-3 we had Grave Digger, then Grady Jackson... We had big agile guys at DT but havnt gotten one for the 3-4. Raji was a good starter. But we havnt had anybody 350+ in a decade? ever? Let alone a Gilbert Brown Nose who would run plays down at nearly 400 pounds!!! In my scheme, a dominant NT is where it all starts. AND ENDS if you dont find one that FORCES a double team every play he is out there... Thats a one man advantage...

The Strong side DE is another NT basicly. But more like a Guion/Raji type of DE. 320+ pounds and quick for his size. But if the defense is going to have freedom to strike from any direction. We will need another DE that forces double teams.

The weak side DE is still 300+ pounds. Like a Daniels type. He needs to be able to hold his own against the run, and still be able to move. A guy who will still give a Tackle a run for his money.

Maybe this is too much to ask. But this is what I would strive for. 3 guys that take 5 Linemen to stop........

Now, if this can be accomplished. Look at the flexability you have to blitz with LBs and even secondary. With that flexability the LBs can strike where ever there is NOT a blocker. Basicly with 4 LBs spread across the front. One can strike where ever they dont have blockers.

If Line is getting a push with 3. LBs will be cleaning up. And thats when we can get creative with blitzes from the secondary. But like our dominant Defensive linemen who can get us one man advantages. WRs are the wild card on the opposing offenses. Premiere WRs basicly demand the double team. Taking away our advantage. This is a pressure defense, and the last thing you want is to let them get behind us... So after premiere Dline, the next most valuable positions are premiere CBs, who can lock down those top tier WRs, 1 on 1. Do all Safetys are also a high priority... Premiere OLBs are more of a luxury player. Obviously having a Mathews coming around the corner is nice to have. But the key is being able to hit them where they dont have blockers. Not being able to beat them with speed and power when they know its coming...

Obviously this is a rough rundown of a defensive mindset. From there you develope zones to compensate for some blitzes. Compensate for weaknesses. And capitalize on the advantages completely...

Now you look at our roster. We have the secondary. Sheilds is as close to a shut down as we could expect without selling the farm. Randall is young, fast, physical. Safetys are one of the best Duos in the league. Between Peppers/Perry/Mathews. We have IMO, two beastly OLBs and Mathews playing inside. Thats 3 guys who can get after the QB effectively. The Dline is lacking. We need another star at nose, now that Raji has basicly retired. Daniels/ Raji/ Guion would have been a good lineup. But if we were to add a big time rookie. Say, Daniels/Raji/rookie, with Jones/Pennel/Guion as rotational guys. That would be destructive enough. But as it stands, No Raji. No big time rookie yet. Ugh. Another average year coming from our defense...Guaranteed. Even with two future hall of fame OLBs for your 2-4, I mean 3-4....

Essentially, Mathews isnt a good example of the ILBs we need. He is better at OLB, and is a waste in coverage. Cant have guys like him in coverage all day. But a ILB of his calliber would help bring it all together. If we need to bring in a nickel, I'd say we take away one of the ILBs instead of Dlinemen. We cant give up the trenches just because they bring a pass formation out. You force them to protect their QB! Cut off the short routes, and get after the QB!

 

[mradtke66]

Maybe this is too much to ask. But this is what I would strive for. 3 guys that take 5 Linemen to stop........

That's great in theory. But it has never been done in the NFL. Ever. Even the great line we had in 1996 wasn't that. Brown was huge, at 360-ish or whatever, but even he could be neutralized. He wasn't really a pass rusher, he had 1 sack in 1996.

White was actually over-sized as a DE (300-ish) but he was a freak. Dotson (278) was smaller than Daniels as a 3T. Jones (RDE) was also about 270.

In other words, our starting 3 linemen in Base (Guion, Daniels, and Pennel) plus Peppers (who is most commonly the ROLB in base and whose role most closely resembles Jone's) is bigger in total weight than our 1996 defensive front.

From there you develope zones to compensate for some blitzes. Compensate for weaknesses.

But that's backwards. Blitzes, which is rushing 5 or more players, more or less requires man to man behind it. Obviously you can get away with it here and there, but as base concepts, extra rushers hurt zones. There's just to much field and not enough guys.

Zone-blitz are different and beyond scope for now. In short though, they are more about tricking which 4 guys rush, rather than extra rushers.

Even with two future hall of fame OLBs for your 2-4, I mean 3-4....

If we need to bring in a nickel, I'd say we take away one of the ILBs instead of Dlinemen. We cant give up the trenches just because they bring a pass formation out. You force them to protect their QB! Cut off the short routes, and get after the QB!

You gotta let this go. The players on the field in nickel are our best pass rushers. That's kind of how you get the job here. Our big guys that you like aren't good rushers. Again, that'd be nice to have. But they are rare and difficult to find.

From there, a 3-3 is actually a little less sound. Your outside guys, whoever they are, are normally lined up wide for a better speed rush. If we had, for example, a 7 or 9 technique wide rusher matched with a 0-technique, a huge natural rushing lane or pocket exists. A balanced front naturally clogs it up from there by keeping less space between defenders.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Every time someone said Brown was 360, they would look at eachother and start laughing.
And I know Guys who are big, and can rush are rare. But IMO you have to spend the money somewhere. 20mil on two OLBs or 20 Mil on 2 premiere Dlinemen.

I liked Our 3-4 when we drafted Raji, and had all Shermans DTs left on the roster. What was it, Williams, Jenkins, Jolly, Pickett? And wouldnt you know??? Our brand new 3-4, with a rookie OLB, and a rookie Nose. A basic, bare bones, learning version of what Capers defense will evolve into... The basics, WITHOUT actual star power at OLB. We did well... Then one Dlineman at a time, it all went away...

 

[mradtke66]

And I know Guys who are big, and can rush are rare. But IMO you have to spend the money somewhere. 20mil on two OLBs or 20 Mil on 2 premiere Dlinemen.

It's not a question of cost, it's a question of pure availability. This lineman you're after cannot be found. Show me how many 320 pound defensive linemen are in the NFL in total. From that list, let's look at how many are actually good pass rushers.

I liked Our 3-4 when we drafted Raji, and had all Shermans DTs left on the roster. What was it, Williams, Jenkins, Jolly, Pickett? And wouldnt you know??? Our brand new 3-4, with a rookie OLB, and a rookie Nose. A basic, bare bones, learning version of what Capers defense will evolve into... The basics, WITHOUT actual star power at OLB. We did well... Then one Dlineman at a time, it all went away...

Problems with that view. And there are LOTS.

Jolly and Pickett were both aquired by TT. Pickett was an UFA, Jolly a 6th round draft pick.

Corey Williams was franchised and traded to the Browns (iirc) after the 2007 season.

I direct you here to look at the roster in 2009. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Green_Bay_Packers_season

And 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Green_Bay_Packers_season

I think you'll find our lines were not as large then or as impressive as you remember.

I will admit that TT missed by letting Jenkins go. He's still in the league as far as I know, was at least good for 2 years after we didn't re-sign him.

 

[Half Empty]

Boy, you just (as you said) can't quit, can you? You ought to try arguing with Packfn23 on some other forums - taken seriously, there's a guy who'd keep you awake at night.

 

[TJV]

mradtke66, after post number 27 I was going to post ‘that’s a valiant but futile effort'. Instead I just hit "agree". He has absolutely no idea what he's talking about.

 

[Pack-12]

It's not a question of cost, it's a question of pure availability. This lineman you're after cannot be found. Show me how many 320 pound defensive linemen are in the NFL in total. From that list, let's look at how many are actually good pass rushers.




Problems with that view. And there are LOTS.

Jolly and Pickett were both aquired by TT. Pickett was an UFA, Jolly a 6th round draft pick.

Corey Williams was franchised and traded to the Browns (iirc) after the 2007 season.

I direct you here to look at the roster in 2009. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Green_Bay_Packers_season

And 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Green_Bay_Packers_season

I think you'll find our lines were not as large then or as impressive as you remember.

I will admit that TT missed by letting Jenkins go. He's still in the league as far as I know, was at least good for 2 years after we didn't re-sign him.

He had the Deal he signed re structured after 1 season then got released from it after the 2nd. Just because he's still in the league doesn't mean he was worth the contract he signed for. Plus the fact that he was butthurt that we didn't extend him before FA to the amount of money he wanted without letting the market see what he was worth.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

It's not a question of cost, it's a question of pure availability. This lineman you're after cannot be found. Show me how many 320 pound defensive linemen are in the NFL in total. From that list, let's look at how many are actually good pass rushers.




Problems with that view. And there are LOTS.

Jolly and Pickett were both aquired by TT. Pickett was an UFA, Jolly a 6th round draft pick.

Corey Williams was franchised and traded to the Browns (iirc) after the 2007 season.

I direct you here to look at the roster in 2009. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Green_Bay_Packers_season

And 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Green_Bay_Packers_season

I think you'll find our lines were not as large then or as impressive as you remember.

I will admit that TT missed by letting Jenkins go. He's still in the league as far as I know, was at least good for 2 years after we didn't re-sign him.

I am not concerned about them being pass rushers at 320. More about getting push. Being destructive. And forcing the QB to move... If the rest of the defense is doing what they are suposed to do, Many times the QB runs right to the Big defenders. Trying to elude pressure from other places. Its all about owning them trenches, and the rest falls into place.

Well maybe more of what I was seeing back in 2009 was the quality of Defensive linemen. Rather that pure numbers. But back to my point. Beastly young Raji, and a younger Pickett, who was a lot more mobile and just as big back then. 320 pound Jolly, and 305 pound Jenkins. All of them fit my mold. All were in their primes. And the defense worked. very well IMO... Looking back, I see guys like Colin Cole, and dan Muir getting replaced quick with Harrell. Who i could have sworn was a few years later... But He was gone off the roster quick, as well as Williams. Also gone by 2009... But I stand by my overall idea that our very first 3-4 with Raji , with the 4-3 DTs left on the roster.

Jenkins was maybe my favorite player when thompson let him walk. I rallied for a couple years to move him to DE, before they did. Took a lot of heat for that idea...Im still a little pissed about it i think. lol

Right now we have a good core. With Raji, I would be optimistic. Without him? I say we hope a Dlineman is there at #27. and we should take another mid rounder. We have some potential contributors in Boyd, or possibly Ringo. But they might not be worth it.
If you want to own the trenches, AND not overpay. You need to keep a steady flow of draft picks coming...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I will admit that TT missed by letting Jenkins go. He's still in the league as far as I know, was at least good for 2 years after we didn't re-sign him.

Jenkins played for the Giants last season and right now is a free agent.

He had the Deal he signed re structured after 1 season then got released from it after the 2nd. Just because he's still in the league doesn't mean he was worth the contract he signed for. Plus the fact that he was butthurt that we didn't extend him before FA to the amount of money he wanted without letting the market see what he was worth.

There´s no doubt in my mind the Packers made a mistake by letting Jenkins leave in free agency after winning the Super Bowl.