The REAL story on Coach Bates

[warhawk]

Here's what I know, I miss Jim Bates. He may not have made our D #7, but he sure fired them up. It's too bad we couldn't keep him as DC. I'll bet the rumours tat he was going to be HC didn't help.

Agreed. I was very much hoping he would take the high road and stay if he didn't land a HC job somewhere else.

I think that by virtue of the fact that he didn't get the job he wouldn't have been capable of being relegated to assistant under someone else in GB. I believe he knew there would be a rub there.

He was obviously convinced he had a good shot at HC somewhere. What I find most curious is that he didn't at least end up a DC with some other team if he wasn't going to get a head job or stay in GB.

It had to be a huge blow after being passed by for all the HC jobs and then passed up by some for DC as well.

 

[steveGB]

To be honest I'd havta agree that we should give sanders a chance. The last years stats can be deceiving we mighta been #7 in yards allowed but remember brett did throw 28 ints last year too which means shorter field position which means less yards.

IMO if we wanna think of a good defence we should focus on how many points we let through over anything else like yards.

 

[all about da packers]

My main problem stems from the fact that Sanders can't do the little things 5 weeks into the season, like Heather said.

I also question at times whether McCarthy would have "forced" Schott on Bates, because Bates has enough of a rep to hire his own D coaches. For all we know the coaches just don't mesh with the D scheme, and Sanders is hampered by this.

I still think Bates was the best for this team, and when you look at the regression of a player like Nick Collins, it makes me believe Bates coaching methods were most suited for this young D.

 

[tromadz]

I think the next 2 games tell more of the story on Sanders.

He had early season struggles(it happens unfortunately), but now he has the bye, and 2 not-so-great teams to play. If he shows improvement, you should lay off, if not, id understand the frustration.

All this cuz Bates was a sour ****(that really burns me). Yeah, TT didnt hire him, **** happens. We dont always get what we want.

 

[Yared-Yam]

I think the next 2 games tell more of the story on Sanders.

He had early season struggles(it happens unfortunately), but now he has the bye, and 2 not-so-great teams to play. If he shows improvement, you should lay off, if not, id understand the frustration.

All this cuz Bates was a sour ****(that really burns me). Yeah, TT didnt hire him, **** happens. We dont always get what we want.

I'll lay off when we win the Superbowl with the #1 defense in the league.

Till then, I will pout

 

[all about da packers]

Trom, I can agree with you post, but my only concern is that the next 2 games are against teams that don't exactly have good NFL offenses.

 

[tromadz]

Trom, I can agree with you post, but my only concern is that the next 2 games are against teams that don't exactly have good NFL offenses.

which is why IT IS so telling. If our (pass) defense looks foolish vs. THESE teams, then something is seriously wrong and it would appear Coach Sanders can't adapt and fix the pass D (at least THIS year, with THESE coaches, Washington\Shotty)

I believe the saying is: "You have to beat the teams you are supposed to beat."

Miami and Buffalo fall in to those categories. The team has shown a lot if improvement since week 1, and NOW it is time to start winning games, putting things together for 60 minutes (not 30, and not 55) and win ball games, and it starts with Miami\Buffalo.

QUESTION TO EVERYONE: Do you think the Packers pass defense would be as bad as it is, if we DIDN'T have Shotty and Washington as our DB coaches?

I think Sanders has done a pretty solid job, unfortunately the one area he lacks in, his assistants and coaches in that department shouldn't even be working in the NFL.

 

[warhawk]

I agree trom. The next three games are big for us as to how the season will go. We could end up 4-4 going to Minny.

The pass "D" looked to be coming around before the break. The question now becomes do they continue to improve or regress? I personally feel we were much better than how we performed earlier. so I hope for the former.

In my mind the key is still going to be getting consistant pressure on the QB. The next few teams we face have all had trouble in this regard and we
need to capitalize on that.

ANY defensive back coach will look pretty good when there is pressure on the QB. Shotty is obviously not proving to be an asset in getting these guys on the same page. Hopefully we are getting where we need to be now but this should have been accomplished much sooner than this.

 

[Anubis]

If you want to see how the D really stacked up

better indication of the D in 2005

ranked #18...Just AVERAGE TO ME.......

Which, no matter how you slice it, is still far superior to the #31 rank we have to be proud of now. :roll:

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

 

[Anubis]

I still think Bates was the best for this team, and when you look at the regression of a player like Nick Collins, it makes me believe Bates coaching methods were most suited for this young D.

Exactly. The defense we have in 2006 looks a lot more like the defense of 2004 than the one we fielded in 2005, and Sanders is allegedly using the exact same scheme Bates did.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

 

[Greg C.]

As has already been pointed out, our defense under Bates was really just average. But that was still an improvement over the year before, and without the benefit of any real upgrades in personnel. In fact, an experienced safety (Sharper) was replaced with a rookie (Collins). I think Bates got the best out of what he had to work with, and I suspect he would be getting even better results with this year's personnel. But we will never know.

I wanted him to get the head coaching job, but the past is the past. It's really unfortunate that Bates came here during the year when the defensive personnel was at its worst. He might have done something special in '04 or '06.

 

[umair]

i agree with greg our d would have been better. this year or the following year. they made improvements last year on d and they would have improved alot more this year.

 

[Cdnfavrefan]

Sanders is using the same scheme plus the addition of Woodson and Hawk so that doesn't look good for him. Even though I'm not happy so far no matter what TT decides I just wish the coaching could keep some continuity. You always here how it takes a team at least a season to get comfortable with a new HC or cordinater so all I ask for is that we could get some form of stability.

 

[tano1998]

I dont like the DC staff...by any means....why they cant hire a good and reliable DC, with proven experience that MM can rely on??

 

[Blackjackking]

Why is everyone so in love with Jim Bates? His defense was near the bottom for points allowed, near the bottom stopping the run, near the bottom taking the ball away. No other team wants him and neither should you, he wasn't that good, in fact he was average at best. Look towards the future and forget the past.

 

[all about da packers]

Perhaps because Jim Bates took almost the exact same unit under Slo and made them improve in areas, made teh tackling better, and stressed fundamentals?

By the way some of our players on that side of the ball are playing, stressing fundamentals would go a long way towards making them develop as players.

Also, how much did you see Nick Barnett celebrate after tackles last year? Granted he did it, but it wasn't after almost every tackle like this year. Bates was a calming influence, who had the respect of his players and the ability to motivate and make them believe in themselves. Look at the injuries last year, Ahmad Carroll, LB shuffle, only one good DT for just more than half the season, no depth and then tell me what Coach Bates did wasn't that big, Blackjackking, because it was.

He is a top class DC, one that puts confidence in his players on Sunday, one who has seen almost everything, one who can give the players an extra burst of energy. But most importantly, HE was the one who was best in understanding/calling the scheme the Packers use right now.

 

[Anubis]

Why is everyone so in love with Jim Bates? His defense was near the bottom for points allowed, near the bottom stopping the run, near the bottom taking the ball away. No other team wants him and neither should you, he wasn't that good, in fact he was average at best. Look towards the future and forget the past.

Bates has produced a top 10 defense everywhere he has been a DC. Our defense last year was ranked #7 overall (or "average" depending on your source). This year, we are ranked #31, or the second worst in the league under Sanders, while allegedly using the same system Bates did. and with various personnel upgrades. Maybe you think the future looks bright with Sanders, but it is obvious our "average" defense is now "abysmal", and is now ranked even worse than it was under Slowik. :roll:

As for no one wanting Bates for DC, I would like to point out that no one wanted Sherman as HC despite his W-L record, yet many Packer fans feel his tenure as HC in Green Bay was far above average.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

 

[CaliforniaCheez]

The failure of the pass defense under McCarthy's buddy Shotenhiemer has
made Bates even more marketable because he had less talent on the defense last year.

I fear after this season Sander will be the fired scape goat and Shottenhiemer promoted to DC. Office politics are a strange thing.

Screw ups happen all the time. Detroit has gone backward since they fired Mariucci and not the GM.

Diamond Jim Bates was most likely not hired due to his age. His record of success is far greater than the mediocrity of McCarthy.

It will be interesting to see if like the the last three coaches who did not have a winning record, the same happens to McCarthy. Even after one year like Ray Rhodes.

 

[longtimefan]

I think the next 2 games tell more of the story on Sanders.

He had early season struggles(it happens unfortunately), but now he has the bye, and 2 not-so-great teams to play. If he shows improvement, you should lay off, if not, id understand the frustration.

All this cuz Bates was a sour ****(that really burns me). Yeah, TT didnt hire him, **** happens. We dont always get what we want.

I'll lay off when we win the Superbowl with the #1 defense in the league.

Till then, I will pout

You were happy a he!! in 96-97 then eh?

 

[yooperfan]

I believe Jim Bates is a victim of age discrimination pure and simple.

 

[longtimefan]

Why is everyone so in love with Jim Bates? His defense was near the bottom for points allowed, near the bottom stopping the run, near the bottom taking the ball away. No other team wants him and neither should you, he wasn't that good, in fact he was average at best. Look towards the future and forget the past.

Bates has produced a top 10 defense everywhere he has been a DC. Our defense last year was ranked #7 overall (or "average" depending on your source). This year, we are ranked #31, or the second worst in the league under Sanders, while allegedly using the same system Bates did. and with various personnel upgrades. Maybe you think the future looks bright with Sanders, but it is obvious our "average" defense is now "abysmal", and is now ranked even worse than it was under Slowik. :roll:

As for no one wanting Bates for DC, I would like to point out that no one wanted Sherman as HC despite his W-L record, yet many Packer fans feel his tenure as HC in Green Bay was far above average.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

Well this link takes into account more then just yards allowed ( which is how the D last year achieved their rankings of #1 and #7, that people like to mention..)

source

Ranked #18 which is more then 16..

16 is half of 32 ( for # of teams) ...So 16~~~most people would call that the AVERAGE..

Since 18 is more then 16 the D last year was BELOW AVERAGE..

Bate sIMO did an excellent job with what he had to work with..

But I think last year people were willing to give him TIME to make it work, this year no one seems willing to do that.

 

[all about da packers]

The failure of the pass defense under McCarthy's buddy Shotenhiemer has
made Bates even more marketable because he had less talent on the defense last year.

I fear after this season Sander will be the fired scape goat and Shottenhiemer promoted to DC. Office politics are a strange thing.

Screw ups happen all the time. Detroit has gone backward since they fired Mariucci and not the GM.

Diamond Jim Bates was most likely not hired due to his age. His record of success is far greater than the mediocrity of McCarthy.

It will be interesting to see if like the the last three coaches who did not have a winning record, the same happens to McCarthy. Even after one year like Ray Rhodes.

Fair comments, but let's not start musing about McCarthy's record/mediocrity or where his job situation stands after this year in this thread.

 

[Anubis]

Well this link takes into account more then just yards allowed ( which is how the D last year achieved their rankings of #1 and #7, that people like to mention..)

source

Ranked #18 which is more then 16..

16 is half of 32 ( for # of teams) ...So 16~~~most people would call that the AVERAGE..

Since 18 is more then 16 the D last year was BELOW AVERAGE..

Bate sIMO did an excellent job with what he had to work with..

But I think last year people were willing to give him TIME to make it work, this year no one seems willing to do that.

That's because this year we are not 1st, 7th, 16th or 18th... We are 31st in total defense. Since there are 32 teams in the league (as you pointed out), that makes us one position better than absolute worst. Even with Slowit at the helm we never sunk this low, and this abysmal display probably answers Blackjackking's question why a lot of us are upset that Bates is gone.

However, I am sure the facts are not going to get in the way of some posters here from continuing to argue that Sanders is a better choice for DC than Bates, or from denying the fact that our defense has majorly declined under the direction of Sanders. Some of the posts I have read lately would have you believe that the Packers are 4-1 with a guaranteed playoff berth and a chance at winning the Superbowl. :roll:

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

[EDIT] I noticed my Karma has declined from 1 to -2 since I started posting in this thread. I guess the truth hurts after all.

:whippin:

 

[Blackjackking]

I never saw so many people fall in love with a DC that coached on a losing team for only one year. He isn't with any other team for one reason and one reason only, Bates is not that good! Packer fans please set your goals a bit higher, look for an up-in-coming DC like a Ron Rivera not a has been like Jim Bates!

 

[all about da packers]

I never saw so many people fall in love with a DC that coached on a losing team for only one year. He isn't with any other team for one reason and one reason only, Bates is not that good! Packer fans please set your goals a bit higher, look for an up-in-coming DC like a Ron Rivera not a has been like Jim Bates!

He isn't with another team because he isn't any good? Er, did you even read the article?