Sam Barrington or Jamari Lattimore?

[PackerDNA]

DraftHobbyist; agree with your points on Shazier, he seems like boom or bust. All mocks and draft sites I checked in were in favor of Mosely until, what, a week or so before the draft. Then Shazier's stock took off.
As to 40 speed, it has it's place; if in a matchup one guy is a step and a half faster than your guy, you've got a problem. But to me it's about playing fast. Anyone remember Eugene Robinson in the twighlight of his career. I don't know if he'd win a foot race with a statue, but he was always where the ball was going and making plays.
Wayne Gretzky was the same. Not fast, big or strong enough, but his vision and anticipation allowed him to see where things were going, and to be 3 or 4 moves ahead of his opponents.
Yeah, guys like that are rare, but playing speed is what I look for.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I guess it depends on how much you put into a 40 time. I value a 40 pretty highly under normal conditions, but I prefer Combine times because they are easier to compare. Some tracks run faster than other tracks. For instance, Wisconsin has a very fast track.

Methodology also matters with the 40 time. At the combine there are computers that take the times that makes things extremely equal. We often see the hand times being off by a tenth or more. Shazier ran one 40 time at his Pro Day and that's it. I think he's more of a mid-4.4 guy. That's what it looks like to me.

So overall, I don't see anything really special about Shazier. Sure, he's fast, but I think the eye test shows more of what he is than the 40 time. Also, LB is a position where instincts matter much more than pure speed. So yeah, I don't agree with the Shazier love.

You're splitting hairs over 4.38 vs. 4.45 in an ILB. Why?

 

[GoPGo]

Umm...There is a HUGE difference between a 4.37 and a 4.45. That's not a matter of splitting hairs. If you watched a side by side of a guy running a 4.37 and a guy running a 4.45, the 4.45 guy wouldn't even be close.

As I've said many times before, until they start timing the 40 in full pads from a standing start, they're meaniningless in this context. 0.08 seconds can be the difference between someone who is good off of starting blocks and someone who isn't. Sprinters spend hours practicing nothing but their starts, so that in itself is a skill and it's a skill that is irrelevant to football.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Umm...There is a HUGE difference between a 4.37 and a 4.45. That's not a matter of splitting hairs. If you watched a side by side of a guy running a 4.37 and a guy running a 4.45, the 4.45 guy wouldn't even be close.

First, since this is an exercise is splitting hairs, I guess I should point out he ran a 4.38 at his pro day, not 4.37. Second, a 7/100ths. of a second difference amounts to about a 2 foot difference over 40 yards. This might be a noticeable in a WR running a go pattern; not often in an ILB.

Can I conclude from your splitting hairs on this matter that 4.37 in an ILB would be "something special" whereas 4.45 is not?

Again, I'm not convinced Shazier isn't just an oversized safety with a possible upside along the lines of the unintuitive Nick Barnett. But there is no question he's exceptionally fast for his position, a quality that is always highly valued in some quarters.

 

[PikeBadger]

I don't like guys that blow the doors off the combine with great measurables but don't have matching production resume. I'd much prefer Thompson draft intuitive football players. Fast guys with bad instincts get out of position faster.

 

[adambr2]

Stick with Brad Jones longer
1 vote(s)
2.1%


I didn't know Brad Jones' mother posted on this forum. Welcome, Mrs. Jones!

 

[TJV]

As HRE posted, straight line speed is more important at some positions than others. For ILBs IMO instincts are more important. For example, if the initial step of a faster ILB is in the wrong direction, he’s lost the advantage of his speed. What happens when the ILB hits the ball carrier is also important: There’s a big difference between delivering a hit and grabbing and hanging on. Ray Lewis was a fairly decent LB. From what I could find it looks like he ran a 4.58 at the combine. I’m not sure if a MLB/ILB ran a 4.37 at that combine but my guess is Lewis would have been the better pick. BTW, saddest thing about that draft (with perfect 20/20 hindsight) is the Packers allegedly liked Lewis and he was taken the pick before the Packers selected OT John Michels.

 

[easyk83]

As HRE posted, straight line speed is more important at some positions than others. For ILBs IMO instincts are more important. For example, if the initial step of a faster ILB is in the wrong direction, he’s lost the advantage of his speed. What happens when the ILB hits the ball carrier is also important: There’s a big difference between delivering a hit and grabbing and hanging on. Ray Lewis was a fairly decent LB. From what I could find it looks like he ran a 4.58 at the combine. I’m not sure if a MLB/ILB ran a 4.37 at that combine but my guess is Lewis would have been the better pick. BTW, saddest thing about that draft (with perfect 20/20 hindsight) is the Packers allegedly liked Lewis and he was taken the pick before the Packers selected OT John Michels.

I don't know, I would have liked a 4.4 Bobby Wagner type against the 9ners. But I agree that instincts and intelligence are extremely important. If your ILBs can consistently make the right run fits your safeties will have a much easier time coming up in run support on the outside runs which is arguably more important than a ILB who can run down Percy Harvin on those Jet sweeps.

That's what did us in against the 49ers back in 2012. Brad Jones was so brutal inside that Gore was running over us and forcing our safeties to support the run defense inside the hash marks. This in turn left us wide open on the outside runs.

 

[easyk83]

The interior D-line played much better against a very good Jets O-line. Lattimore's more physical play certainly helped as well. He might have seized the position yesterday depending on how the coaches grade him out.

 

[PikeBadger]

How did Lattimore look yesterday? Did Barrington play much?

 

[7thFloorRA]

Lattimore didn't look bad. He didn't stand out and that is a good thing. Brad Jones stands out because he is bad. I fully expect Jones to play when healthy though. I would still like to see one series where Lattimore and Barrington play side by side. Maybe they can take Hawk off to the side and re-fit his helmet for a series and allow this to happen. That thing fell of more times than I can remember yesterday.

 

[easyk83]

Lattimore didn't look bad. He didn't stand out and that is a good thing. Brad Jones stands out because he is bad. I fully expect Jones to play when healthy though. I would still like to see one series where Lattimore and Barrington play side by side. Maybe they can take Hawk off to the side and re-fit his helmet for a series and allow this to happen. That thing fell of more times than I can remember yesterday.

Hawk is judged too harshly, he has been a different player for the last 2 seasons. Did you know that in tackles for loss, if you exclude 34 OLBs, and DEs, that AJ Hawk was tied for 3rd in the league with Navarro Bowman? Did you also know that he was tied for 3rd in the league for sacks among ILBs with Navarro Bowman? 16 sacks and tackles for loss and you want to replace him with a guy who has never started an NFL game before.... Ooooo-k.

IMHO Hawk's improved production is not so much a result of scheme or him playing more loosely. He was a star at OSU playing as a 236 pound catch and chase linebacker. After spending much of his pro career at 255 pounds, and resembling a human knockwurst with average speed, Hawk is back down to the 230s and suddenly he looks pretty fast again. Suddenly a lighter more athletic AJ Hawk has started doing things like this:

http://www.packers.com/media-center...rception/f4706c57-921c-4ee5-9fb6-7084c33d694c

Perhaps Hawk shouldn't be regarded as much as an underachieving number 5 pick and more as a what if. What if AJ Hawk played his entire career at his ideal weight? I wager he would be evaluated in a very different fashion.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

How did Lattimore look yesterday? Did Barrington play much?

Haven't watched the game again but didn't see Barrington play a single snap from scrimmage.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Hawk is judged too harshly, he has been a different player for the last 2 seasons. Did you know that in tackles for loss, if you exclude 34 OLBs, and DEs, that AJ Hawk was tied for 3rd in the league with Navarro Bowman? Did you also know that he was tied for 3rd in the league for sacks among ILBs with Navarro Bowman? 16 sacks and tackles for loss and you want to replace him with a guy who has never started an NFL game before.... Ooooo-k.

IMHO Hawk's improved production is not so much a result of scheme or him playing more loosely. He was a star at OSU playing as a 236 pound catch and chase linebacker. After spending much of his pro career at 255 pounds, and resembling a human knockwurst with average speed, Hawk is back down to the 230s and suddenly he looks pretty fast again. Suddenly a lighter more athletic AJ Hawk has started doing things like this:

http://www.packers.com/media-center...rception/f4706c57-921c-4ee5-9fb6-7084c33d694c

Perhaps Hawk shouldn't be regarded as much as an underachieving number 5 pick and more as a what if. What if AJ Hawk played his entire career at his ideal weight? I wager he would be evaluated in a very different fashion.

Hawk's run defense was terrible though last season and he dorsn't produce enough turnover plays.

 

[brandon2348]

I would like to see Barrington get more of a shot. I like his speed.

 

[HardRightEdge]

.01 is splitting hairs. .07 is not. I know 7/100ths doesn't sound like a lot, but it is. 2 feet is a big deal, especially when trying to defend big, fast TE's running down the seam. And to answer your question, a 4.45 is still pretty good, but yes, a 4.37 would be much more impressive. A 4.37 would basically mean that he could run with WR's in terms of sd. I mean, if a LB is going to improve his stock mainly based on his 40 time then it better be out really good not just pretty good.

2 ft. over 40 yards is negligible given how often an ILB needs to run 40 yards in an all out sprint.

 

[HardRightEdge]

2 feet is the difference between a TE catching a TD and not. I don't know how you can say that is negligible.

Receivers rarely run that distance without making some kind of move and QBs rarely hit receivers in perfect stride at that distance. There are so many other factors in defending a pass that the 0.07 difference borders on irrelevant. Besides, 4.45, if that's what it is, is not "pretty good" for an ILB...it's at the top end of the position range as it is for TEs.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Receivers rarely run that distance without making some kind of move and QBs rarely hit receivers in perfect stride at that distance. There are so many other factors in defending a pass that the 0.07 difference borders on irrelevant. Besides, 4.45, if that's what it is, is not "pretty good" for an ILB...it's at the top end of the position range as it is for TEs.

I think the three cone drill and the twenty yard shuttle are actually better ways to measure the possible playing speed of an ILB. Nevertheless those numbers don't mean anything if the guy doesn't have great instincts.

 

[easyk83]

Hawk's run defense was terrible though last season and he dorsn't produce enough turnover plays.

One forced fumble and 2 interceptions is not a bad years work. As for his run defense I recall him grading out well week in and week out right up until the mid season collapse. Was Hawk's defense bad last year or did he struggle because of poor interior line play, it is tough make a run fit when your NT is getting drive blocked into your lap.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Vernon Davis ran a 4.38....just saying. And yes, there are many other factors than a 40 yard dash, which is a big problem for Shazier, because when you look at the tape those other things don't really show up. That's why he was a late riser, and that's a big reason why I'd rather have HHCD than Shazier.

I agree with that. But the issue was whether 4.37 (or 4.45 if you prefer) speed is "special" in an ILB. Clearly it is. 4.37 or 4.38 of 4.45...they're top of the range for ILBs or TEs as far as I'm concerned given there are regulars in the league at these positions who run 4.8.

 

[easyk83]

BTW AJ Hawk is on pace to break John Anderson's franchise record for Total Tackles by the close of his 11th season. Love him like him, dont care about him or hate him AJ Hawk will likely finish his career as one of the most productive linebackers in franchise history and probably will have the most total tackles.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

One forced fumble and 2 interceptions is not a bad years work. As for his run defense I recall him grading out well week in and week out right up until the mid season collapse. Was Hawk's defense bad last year or did he struggle because of poor interior line play, it is tough make a run fit when your NT is getting drive blocked into your lap.

Yeah, he had some turnover plays last season but before that was shut out for more than two years if I recall correctly. Hawk's run defense was pretty bad all of last season but I agree that the struggles at NT didn't help. Nevertheless A.J. was a huge part of the problem as well.

 

[lambeaulambo]

BTW AJ Hawk is on pace to break John Anderson's franchise record for Total Tackles by the close of his 11th season. Love him like him, dont care about him or hate him AJ Hawk will likely finish his career as one of the most productive linebackers in franchise history and probably will have the most total tackles.

my goodness man, what are you smoking? I want some. Hawk good whether we like him or not huh? OMG NOOOOOO!!! LOL this is laughable!!

 

[DaveRoller]

Hawk had 1 interception not 2 last season.

He forced his first fumble in years, when he blatantly grabbed Adrian Peterson's face mask in the game at Lambeau.

Stop blaming NTs and everyone else for his play.

He has been paid huge money for the production of a journeyman. He will be remembered for his tackles 8-10 yards downfield rather than for any good play.

The sooner he is gone the soon re the D can become respectable.

 

[easyk83]

Yeah, he had some turnover plays last season but before that was shut out for more than two years if I recall correctly. Hawk's run defense was pretty bad all of last season but I agree that the struggles at NT didn't help. Nevertheless A.J. was a huge part of the problem as well.

I remember AJ playing very well with the rest of the unit right up until the interior of the defense collapsing after the first loss against Chicago. Injuries and BJ Raji's decision to mail in the season doomed the defense to mediocrity. Even persistent Hawk critic Bob McGinn generally gave good grades to his play up until that point and the coaches graded him out very well. Not many Linebackers can take on offensive linemen in the gaps and make a play on the ball carrier much. Show me a good LB, and I'll show you a good D-line in front of him.