"Realistic" WR Discussions...

[Deleted member 6794]

Not a reliable stat. Could probably say the same for WR. After all we have umdrafted GMo starting, which is what you want to avoid.

But are the starting OTs any good? Just googled top 10 NFL OTs. Brought up OL.

1 was undrafted
4th round - 1 (Bahk!)
3rd round - 1
2nd round - 2
1st round - 5

Rather help AR out with outstanding OL play than WRs. Keep him healthier as well as helping AJ out as well.

Well, according to your search half of the top 10 offensive linemen were drafted after the first round, meaning the Packers might not have to spend their first round pick on a tackle to replace Bulaga after all. While I agree that pass protection is important for being able to throw the ball effectively having a decent receiving corps is as well.

The Packers lack a #2 receiver and a tight end for that to be true though.

Back on Oct. 15 Pkrjones called for Lazard to be the #2 WR. Some of you mocked that stance, comparing Lazard to Janis and accusing Lazard's proponents as having a "crazy mindset".

Well, here we are two months later. The Packers have made Lazard the defacto #2 WR for several weeks now. Lazard is ninth in the league in yards/target.

The simple fact of the matter is that Lazard is better than every Packer WR other than Adams. Pkrjones saw that first. This was never about the greatness of Lazard, it was about how bad the early season #2 & #3 WR's were, which was evident back in Oct. Allison and Scantling are so unproductive now that Kumerow is probably moving up to #3 next.

Worth noting that Lazard's big body plays into LaFleur's outside zone scheme because Lazard can really do some nice blocking in the run game, too. Nice little side benefit to playing Lazard more.

Hats off to Pkrjones for having excellent foresight on this one, good call on Lazard! Pkrjones was right, the naysayers were wrong.

Lazard has been a pleasant surprise this season but I don't want the Packers to rely on him being the #2 receiver entering next year.

 

[tynimiller]

Do you think EQ can get to the next level? I am completely disappointed in Scantling and Allison. Donald Driver was better than them in his13th season.

I don't think you were asking me directly, but I think you have to look at EQ much in the same way as you look at MVS. Both guys haven't fully proven themselves of being a solid NFL WR, nor have they proven themselves to be a totally incapable NFL WR. You can pretty much say that about ever WR on the Packers roster, not named Davante Adams.

The important thing moving forward (IMO) for 2020 and beyond, is that the Packers don't have 5/6th's of their WR depth chart filled with these kinds of players.

Here's my honest take on EQ. Honestly, I loved him far more than any of the other rookies selected and played in 2018 (throw Gmo in as well). Reasons were for the same reasons I was a fan of his prior to us selected him: intelligence.

EQ from a just pure intelligence line is a freaking stud, throw in the fact that his mindset in football from all things I've ever heard (have friends close to ND program) is he attacks football in a similar fashion. He from a early stage at ND knew he wasn't the most "god given ability" gifted wideout and that many times he was going to line up against a DB that was quicker, faster or could jump higher...but he would be smarter, crisper and want it more.

In some ways his confidence is in what he molds himself to be vs merely because he has the raw skillset. His rookie line through just 12 games as a 6th round pick and low man on the totem poll was admirable at 328 yards on 21 receptions.

I fully expected a growth in this second year, even if not statistically, on his tape and deliverance/execution of his duties. His route running was already ahead of guys drafted sooner by us, but could as all improve.

The injury...growth of Lazard & Kumerow, if we as an organization don't say bye to Gmo and the project that is MVS all could greatly hinder EQ's battle to contribute in 2020...the timing of his injury sucks. I truly believe he was going to be a #3 type guy for us this year by the year's end with his handskills and route running and smarts Rodgers was going to love him....

It is true though, we have in my opinion some awesome young growing wideouts...and we truly are ONLY missing a #2...due to that all of our expectations are unrealistic on all the rest. Making our judgement of them a little tainted.

 

[gopkrs]

Well, according to your search half of the top 10 offensive linemen were drafted after the first round, meaning the Packers might not have to spend their first round pick on a tackle to replace Bulaga after all. While I agree that pass protection is important for being able to throw the ball effectively having a decent receiving corps is as well.

The Packers lack a #2 receiver and a tight end for that to be true though.



Lazard has been a pleasant surprise this season but I don't want the Packers to rely on him being the #2 receiver entering next year.

Actually, I don't agree with any of it. Drafting an O lineman in the later rounds is just a lot more of a crapshoot than drafting one early. I don't think we need a TE early in the draft. Have more important needs and Graham has played so much, we really have not seen what our other TEs can do. I really like Lazard and would like to see him get more passes so we can judge him fairly. How can you tell he isn't the hit on the crapshoot?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Unless Jimmy Graham all of a sudden goes nuts and puts up some big numbers, I don't expect him to be around next season. While he was given a 3 year contract, the Packers basically front loaded it, so that getting out after 2 years wouldn't be quite as painful.

After watching George Kittle and a few other TE's destroy the Packers this season, I think its imperative that the Packers add a dynamic TE to their offense. How (FA/Draft/Trade) they accomplish that, will be up to Gute. I know some people like Tonyan, but I wouldn't rely on him to be that TE, nor can you go into 2020 thinking Sterberger is the answer either.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Unless Jimmy Graham all of a sudden goes nuts and puts up some big numbers, I don't expect him to be around next season. While he was given a 3 year contract, the Packers basically front loaded it, so that getting out after 2 years wouldn't be quite as painful.

After watching George Kittle and a few other TE's destroy the Packers this season, I think its imperative that the Packers add a dynamic TE to their offense. How (FA/Draft/Trade) they accomplish that, will be up to Gute. I know some people like Tonyan, but I wouldn't rely on him to be that TE, nor can you go into 2020 thinking Sterberger is the answer either.

They definitely can be our starting TE's next year, especially if Gute pays up for either LB help or a WR. We may need those two to be cheap and productive. Risky, sure, but not impossible. Tonyan has flashed, Jace will have one more year of experience in a league where three years seems the norm for TE's.

 

[gopkrs]

Unless Jimmy Graham all of a sudden goes nuts and puts up some big numbers, I don't expect him to be around next season. While he was given a 3 year contract, the Packers basically front loaded it, so that getting out after 2 years wouldn't be quite as painful.

After watching George Kittle and a few other TE's destroy the Packers this season, I think its imperative that the Packers add a dynamic TE to their offense. How (FA/Draft/Trade) they accomplish that, will be up to Gute. I know some people like Tonyan, but I wouldn't rely on him to be that TE, nor can you go into 2020 thinking Sterberger is the answer either.

Sternberger was like the 12th 3rd rounder picked and the 3rd tight end...wasn't he? And he has been hurt all year. Seems like the staff liked him alot. Can't keep drafting/paying TEs. Especially since we don't really know. He might be really good.

 

[AmishMafia]

captainWIMM said: ↑
The Packers might get by with signing a stopgap to start immediately in place of Bulaga while drafting his eventual replacement down the road later in the draft. 15 of the 44 tackles that have started at least 10 games in the league this offseason have either been selected in the fourth round or later or even went undrafted.

Well, according to your search half of the top 10 offensive linemen were drafted after the first round, meaning the Packers might not have to spend their first round pick on a tackle to replace Bulaga after all.

Don't change your argument. You said we can get one after the 3rd round and even undrafted. 80% of top OTs were taken 3rd or higher, with 1/2 in the first. And when you consider that 1 out of 10 or so OTs on spring rosters is drafted in the first, it seems pretty obvious that a higher round pick is far more likely to succeed.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Sternberger was like the 12th 3rd rounder picked and the 3rd tight end...wasn't he? And he has been hurt all year. Seems like the staff liked him alot. Can't keep drafting/paying TEs. Especially since we don't really know. He might be really good.

I think he was after Irv Smith - 4th TE?

 

[Pugger]

Sternberger was like the 12th 3rd rounder picked and the 3rd tight end...wasn't he? And he has been hurt all year. Seems like the staff liked him alot. Can't keep drafting/paying TEs. Especially since we don't really know. He might be really good.

We'll know how the staff feels about Sternberger if they don't sign a FA or draft one high this spring.

 

[tynimiller]

No matter your positional opinions I think it is safe to say we will have to be signing someone in FA to fill a gap at one of the following: TE/WR/ILB and possibly OT.

The sad reality is this team is literally on the edge of a cliff to success...I argue this year give us a solid #2 receiving option (even if it was a top flight TE) and that pushes us over....same some might argue if we had a TRUE stud #1 ILB that fits our system more than Blake that could do similar as well....

....2020 however vacancies will occur Graham should be cut, Bulaga could swing either way and Blake is walking into cash elsewhere....leaving a huge void at these three/four positions. With OL being the "easiest" to cure with a veteran or mid-round rookie based on history, I expect that to be where we see possibly the 'most cash' spent on a FA....and we will enter the draft HOPING we get that offensive weapon and ILB answer before the close of Round 3.

*Obviously these thoughts are merely mine and mine alone..

 

[tynimiller]

We'll know how the staff feels about Sternberger if they don't sign a FA or draft one high this spring.

Cut Graham and even don't bring back Lewis (HUGE proponent to re-signing) and drafting a TE would still be a solid decision...only way a sign of our belief in Jace could be evident is if we take one with our first pick IMO.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Actually, I don't agree with any of it. Drafting an O lineman in the later rounds is just a lot more of a crapshoot than drafting one early. I don't think we need a TE early in the draft. Have more important needs and Graham has played so much, we really have not seen what our other TEs can do. I really like Lazard and would like to see him get more passes so we can judge him fairly. How can you tell he isn't the hit on the crapshoot?

It's true for every single position on a football team that the chances of drafting an impact player are higher during the early rounds. That doesn't mean the Packers automatically have to select a replacement for Bulaga with their first pick next year.

I have been advocating for the Packers to sign a tight end in free agency as it takes players at the position a significant amount of time to have an impact in the NFL.

I'm definitely in favor of giving Lazard a chance to be a starter or even the #2 receiver in 2020 but the Packers shouldn't rely on him being up to the task.

They definitely can be our starting TE's next year, especially if Gute pays up for either LB help or a WR. We may need those two to be cheap and productive. Risky, sure, but not impossible. Tonyan has flashed, Jace will have one more year of experience in a league where three years seems the norm for TE's.

Sternberger's rookie season was close to a redshirt year in college, playing only 48 snaps so far. The Packers definitely need to add another tight end next offseason.

Don't change your argument. You said we can get one after the 3rd round and even undrafted. 80% of top OTs were taken 3rd or higher, with 1/2 in the first. And when you consider that 1 out of 10 or so OTs on spring rosters is drafted in the first, it seems pretty obvious that a higher round pick is far more likely to succeed.

You were the one mentioning that the Packers would absolutely have to use their first round pick on a right tackle if they let Bulaga walk away in free agency. Taking a look at the Pro Bowl rosters (a terrible indicator, I know, but the best I can come up with at this point) three of the six tackles have been drafted in the third round or later.

As I've mentioned above, of course the chances increase of drafting an impact player early but that's true for every position.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

No matter your positional opinions I think it is safe to say we will have to be signing someone in FA to fill a gap at one of the following: TE/WR/ILB and possibly OT.

The sad reality is this team is literally on the edge of a cliff to success...I argue this year give us a solid #2 receiving option (even if it was a top flight TE) and that pushes us over....same some might argue if we had a TRUE stud #1 ILB that fits our system more than Blake that could do similar as well....

....2020 however vacancies will occur Graham should be cut, Bulaga could swing either way and Blake is walking into cash elsewhere....leaving a huge void at these three/four positions. With OL being the "easiest" to cure with a veteran or mid-round rookie based on history, I expect that to be where we see possibly the 'most cash' spent on a FA....and we will enter the draft HOPING we get that offensive weapon and ILB answer before the close of Round 3.

*Obviously these thoughts are merely mine and mine alone..

In my opinion it would be smart to sign a veteran tight end in free agency. It takes even the best college players at the position some time to have an impact at the NFL level.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

They definitely can be our starting TE's next year, especially if Gute pays up for either LB help or a WR. We may need those two to be cheap and productive. Risky, sure, but not impossible. Tonyan has flashed, Jace will have one more year of experience in a league where three years seems the norm for TE's.

Sternberger was like the 12th 3rd rounder picked and the 3rd tight end...wasn't he? And he has been hurt all year. Seems like the staff liked him alot. Can't keep drafting/paying TEs. Especially since we don't really know. He might be really good.

I understand that some fans are optimistic about Tonyan and Sternberger, but I don't really understand what makes them so optimistic? Sterberger doesn't even have a catch in the NFL and has only taken 48 snaps on offense. Tonyan has 12 receptions in 2 years.

If the Sternberger optimism is solely based on the fact that he was a 3rd round pick, I hope he turns into the next Jermichael Finley, but at this point he could very well just be another Oren Burks, Mo Adams, Kyri Thornton, Alex Green, etc.

Bottom line for me, if Graham is released, which I do expect, the Packers shouldn't go into 2020 with just the hope that Sternberger and Tonyan are their #1 and #2 TE's.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Bottom line for me, if Graham is released, which I do expect, the Packers shouldn't go into 2020 with just the hope that Sternberger and Tonyan are their #1 and #2 TE's.

In my opinion there's absolutely no way Graham will be back next season. The Packers need a veteran to replace him though.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

In my opinion there's absolutely no way Graham will be back next season. The Packers need a veteran to replace him though.

Agreed and as I have been saying repeatedly, I think its time to focus the FA money and attention on the offensive weapons that to me are glaring needs. This would include a TE and a WR. I love the draft, but we all know how that works out and those picks should be viewed as potentially future starters, not instant starters. The Packers need instant starters at TE and WR in 2020.

 

[milani]

I don't think you were asking me directly, but I think you have to look at EQ much in the same way as you look at MVS. Both guys haven't fully proven themselves of being a solid NFL WR, nor have they proven themselves to be a totally incapable NFL WR. You can pretty much say that about ever WR on the Packers roster, not named Davante Adams.

The important thing moving forward (IMO) for 2020 and beyond, is that the Packers don't have 5/6th's of their WR depth chart filled with these kinds of players.

Not being able to evaluate EQ this season makes it hard going forward. I think Scantling and Allison have had their chance. I recall James Jones, Greg Jennings, and Jordy Nelson in the first 2 years on the roster and I was astounded at what I saw. Have not seen anything close from these 2 receivers. And even after 12 years Donald Driver was more impressive even when his physical skills were beginning to diminish.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Agreed and as I have been saying repeatedly, I think its time to focus the FA money and attention on the offensive weapons that to me are glaring needs. This would include a TE and a WR. I love the draft, but we all know how that works out and those picks should be viewed as potentially future starters, not instant starters. The Packers need instant starters at TE and WR in 2020.

I'm would be in favor of signing a veteran wide receiver next offseason as well but I'm not convinced there's a free agent available who would be a good fit for the Packers at a reasonable price.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm would be in favor of signing a veteran wide receiver next offseason as well but I'm not convinced there's a free agent available who would be a good fit for the Packers at a reasonable price.

I think we will see guys become available, either through Free agency or via a possible trade, that currently aren't on our radars. Really hard to get a clear picture of who those guys will be, until we move closer to Free Agency.

 

[tynimiller]

In my opinion it would be smart to sign a veteran tight end in free agency. It takes even the best college players at the position some time to have an impact at the NFL level.

I don't entirely disagree and sense we do re-sign Lewis or another experienced guy and cut Graham.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don't entirely disagree and sense we do re-sign Lewis or another experienced guy and cut Graham.

While I wouldn't mind bringing Lewis back for next season the Packers need to add a veteran tight end excelling as a receiver.

 

[tynimiller]

While I wouldn't mind bringing Lewis back for next season the Packers need to add a veteran tight end excelling as a receiver.

I don't think I personally see it as pressing as you but likewise I wouldn't be mad to see we sign someone, just pray it isn't a Graham type mistake fiscally if I do LOL

I am a fan of Benjamin Watson personally, however, his pass catching abilities have waned in his age lately.

 

[Scotland Yard]

C'mon Poker, don't minimize the opinions of the wise & insightful Scotland Yard!! You're both correct ~ I am incredibly wise AND I posted that when our 2,3,4 AND 5 receivers weren't doing jack and AR was left trusting in his #6 (Lazard) to help.

I like the trust that AR has in Lazard and think that with more snaps the 2 will be even better moving forward. I've also noted Kumerow doing well blocking so Adams (6'-1", 215), Lazard (6'-5", 227) & Kumerow (6'-4", 209) make for a formidable WR group receiving and blocking.

Once again, Pkrjones shows that his opinions are spot on...more of you should listen to him.

Lazard has been a pleasant surprise this season but I don't want the Packers to rely on him being the #2 receiver entering next year.

Agree 100%. I like Lazard long-term as a #3 WR, perhaps improving and making his way into a full-time #2 WR down the road. But, this year he's the #2 because nobody else stepped up and he did.

WR's Jeudy & Lamb are on my radar for the 2020 draft. I'm in the camp that says trade up and get Jeudy, even if it costs the 2021 1st round pick (and more?), he is that good IMO.

 

[Stanger37]

I'd like to see who is out there and available. Unless there is a rookie that is so much better than anything out there in terms of playbooks, routes, SEPARATION...I'd go for a veteran. They've drafted what? 6 WRs in the last 3 years and minus EQ because of the lack of starts and field time, all the others haven't worked out I feel it is safe to say. I don't know if there's been some scouting turnover but it's been 5 years since drafting a WR that has performed.

How much more time is going to be wasted trying to get a young playmaker up to speed while also wasting the last few years of Rodgers? Bring in a veteran that doesn't need any grooming.

I hope I am wrong but if it was going to be MVS, this was the year to prove it. And after the first play on Sunday when he had a 75yd TD first play of the game not happen....Rodgers didn't even target him the rest of the game.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

I understand that some fans are optimistic about Tonyan and Sternberger, but I don't really understand what makes them so optimistic? Sterberger doesn't even have a catch in the NFL and has only taken 48 snaps on offense. Tonyan has 12 receptions in 2 years.

If the Sternberger optimism is solely based on the fact that he was a 3rd round pick, I hope he turns into the next Jermichael Finley, but at this point he could very well just be another Oren Burks, Mo Adams, Kyri Thornton, Alex Green, etc.

Bottom line for me, if Graham is released, which I do expect, the Packers shouldn't go into 2020 with just the hope that Sternberger and Tonyan are their #1 and #2 TE's.

It's not that I'm optimistic, it's more that the salary cap exists. Based on importance of position I'd rather Gute spend at ILB and WR than to pay top dollar for another TE FA. Having had a look at those available, once the free agents are re-signed, which I assume the top ones will be, the talent looks like it drops off signficantly. There does not appear to be a bargain there for us to sign.