Post MM firing -- coaching search: who we want -- ALL threads merged

[Pokerbrat2000]

But I respond to your arguments because I view them as faulty, lazy, and ignorant.

I'm only responding to your post because it included that statement. If you are going to call a poster out, might want to hold a mirror up and double check your facts on what I have said or you sound like a hypocrite.

• My post did not say Alexander got worse.
• Randall is playing better in Cleveland at Safety correct. Don't you think his position coach for 3 years in GB should have recognized where his talents were? Someone in Cleveland obviously knew.
• Hyde actually was drafted as a CB and spent his first season at CB under Whitt. Fortunately, someone recognized he would make a better safety and in his second year he was switched over. Maybe credit to Whitt there? Hyde and Hayward have been sprinkled into this conversation by many of us, mainly to point out the fact that both left Green Bay as average players and played much better on new teams, under different coaches.
• Kevin King has gotten better? I guess I will believe that when I see it.
• Development of Tony Brown? I wouldn't want to keep Joe Whitt around based on the little (good and bad) we have seen of Tony Brown.

Really, not much of this is new discussion between us and nobody has changed my mind on Joe Whitt. If I see Whitt build a top 10 secondary in Green Bay or elsewhere, I might change my opinion of him. But hard for me to ignore all of the draft capital he has been given to work with over the years and very little to show for it.

While I respect you as a fellow poster, with generally decent insight, I don't appreciate the personal attacks of calling my posts "faulty, lazy, and ignorant", something you have done twice now. Because of that, I'm done discussing this with you and in less than a week, it probably won't matter.

 

[GleefulGary]

Oh it's Joe Whitt's fault that Randall was playing out of position! What else are you going to blame on him?!

 

[PackAttack12]

Kenny Clark on what attributes he'd want in a new coach, per Rapoport:

A motivator, a guy that's going to come in and keep the standard the standard - never waver from it

Not sure if this is appropriate enough to fit under the strict parameters of this particular thread, but thought I'd give it a shot. Hope it doesn't get deleted.

 

[HardRightEdge]

My post did not say Alexander got worse.

Hyde actually was drafted as a CB and spent his first season at CB under Whitt.

Kevin King has gotten better? I guess I will believe that when I see it.

It is interesting that in the last few games opponents have been throwing at Alexander a lot and it is not always their #1 receiver getting his targets. They are seeing something. It's not separation because he doesn't give up much very often. Maybe it's height mismatches.

Except for a couple of starts as an injury replacement at safety, Hyde played almost exclusively as a slot corner during his time in Green Bay.

I agree on King. However, I'm not sure he's yet to play a single healthy game in Green Bay and you have to wonder if he ever will. According to his telling, the one shoulder popped out of the socket about 10 times during his rookie season, they'd pop it back in, and send him back out until enough was enough and he went to Ir. This year he starting popped the other shoulder. Then he went to IR with a shoulder though I'm not sure which one.

 

[Mondio]

Oh it's Joe Whitt's fault that Randall was playing out of position! What else are you going to blame on him?!

And after being promoted from just a position coach to a more influential “passing game coordinator” the group went from bottom of the league to upper half. And that’s with 16 or so different players back there. Can’t be all bad can he?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It is interesting that in the last few games opponents have been throwing at Alexander a lot and it is not always their #1 receiver getting his targets. They are seeing something. It's not separation because he doesn't give up much very often. Maybe it's height mismatches.

Only other thing I can think of is that Breeland is now finally seeing playing time and possibly other teams would rather take their chances throwing at Alexander than #26. I really like what Breeland brings and hope Gute can get him resigned.

 

[GleefulGary]

Only other thing I can think of is that Breeland is now finally seeing playing time and possibly other teams would rather take their chances throwing at Alexander than #26. I really like what Breeland brings and hope Gute can get him resigned.

Teams aren't more concerned about Breeland lol.

Alexander is just fatiguing, and he's a rookie. He's got a lot to learn. The fact that he's easily been the best DB on this team, and arguably a top 2-3 defensive player on the team should tell you a lot about the available talent.

 

[GleefulGary]

If the expectation is that as a rookie Alexander should be winning the vast majority of his matchups...then the expectation is wrong.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If the expectation is that as a rookie Alexander should be winning the vast majority of his matchups...then the expectation is wrong.

Not sure you understand what we were discussing. HRE made the observation that teams seem to be targeting Alexander more and asked if maybe it was because of his size. You can ignore and laugh that I suggested that possibly it might be due to Breeland, who btw had a pretty solid game against the Falcons, Top PFF rating of 94.8 in that game, but whatever.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

Not sure you understand what we were discussing. HRE made the observation that teams seem to be targeting Alexander more and asked if maybe it was because of his size. You can ignore and laugh that I suggested that possibly it might be due to Breeland, who btw had a pretty solid game against the Falcons, Top PFF rating of 94.8 in that game, but whatever.

Props for staying cool and trying to move on from Janis even tho he is still commenting on your posts that are unrelated to him.

 

[C-Lee]

I think Pettine with a good OC could honestly be really nice.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Props for staying cool and trying to move on from Janis even tho he is still commenting on your posts that are unrelated to him.

Yup....Jeff Janis will be a guy I will always remember for being so close to stardom, yet so far away.

 

[Half Empty]

Oh it's Joe Whitt's fault that Randall was playing out of position! What else are you going to blame on him?!

I am admittedly not a football expert, but whose fault IS it when someone's playing out of position?

 

[Mondio]

I am admittedly not a football expert, but whose fault IS it when someone's playing out of position?

I'm going to guess final decision is the headcoach or the coordinator for offense or defense. without being able to sit in on meetings, nobody has any legitimate input on what a person said or thought of another player. Randall was a good DB. Seems I have to remind people of that, after their rookie season, everyone was writing that if a team could lose a caliber DB like Hayward and not miss a beat, it was the Green Bay Packers because their 2 rookies and Shields were looking good after year 1. Year 2 injuries and year 3 he was our best DB on the field and we had Dix off a pro bowl a season prior and Burnett.

My guess was even if they wanted to play him at safety, he was more than sufficient at DB and that was the position we had a dire need for. So, would the better play have been to move clinton dix to DB and play Randall at safety? I think they made a call as to how to get the best defense on the field. And at the time, it was probably the correct one. At least one above average DB and 2 established vets at safety or zero sufficient DB's and take one of the better safeties off the field to make the switch?

I'm pretty sure a position coach doesn't tell a defensive coordinator what he is going to do with players and where he is going to line them up. If he did, they'd have switched job titles. to even suggest that's how the hierarchy works is kind of silly I think and shows just how much someone is reaching too place blame on someone.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Only other thing I can think of is that Breeland is now finally seeing playing time and possibly other teams would rather take their chances throwing at Alexander than #26. I really like what Breeland brings and hope Gute can get him resigned.

You might be right there. Breeland has looked pretty good. The rookies have been pretty good at limiting separation, refreshing progress from prior seasons, but their ball awareness is not there yet. If a QB is going to throw to tight separation, he's going to go where he believes the guy is not going to get his head around. I reckon there is upside with these young guys.

Taken in a blind vacuum, re-signing Breeland would be a slam dunk. But what's he going to cost and what are the doctors saying about King's chronic shoulder pops? Will Pettine still be around and would he want to go dime heavy as he did earlier in the season before the injuries started hitting?

Whether Carolina voided that nice contract for some combination of non-football injury / non-disclosure of injury / recurring childhood injury / perceived severity of injury, he appears to be back to full strength. Even as somebody's #2 with outside / slot flexibility, he could pull down some nice coin. If I were New Orleans right now, I'd wish I had him instead of having to trade for Eli Apple, which goes to show how even good defenses on winning teams can have holes at spots that can't be papered over.

Breeland is the kind of guy I'd like to see the Packers sign. Though not quite a second contract guy, he'll be in his 6th. year while appearing none the worse for wear. I suspect he'll be unaffordable given the other holes to fill.

And if we're talking about Breeland / Cobb / Matthews at $15 mil cap, with usable cap dropping to about $15 mil barring vet cuts, where is the roster improvement?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm pretty sure a position coach doesn't tell a defensive coordinator what he is going to do with players and where he is going to line them up. If he did, they'd have switched job titles. to even suggest that's how the hierarchy works is kind of silly I think and shows just how much someone is reaching too place blame on someone.

You kind of sold me on the reason the Packers used Randall out of position, but this last part doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You are painting a pretty broad picture with that statement. "DC decides all, no questions asked." While I agree with you, a DC isn't necessarily going to take marching orders from one of his positional coaches, but if you think a DC doesn't rely on his positional coaches for accurate assessments of the guys he is in charge of coaching, than I think you are missing something. Maybe Capers and McCarthy should have noticed that Randall was playing out of position, maybe they did and Whitt assured them he wasn't, do we know if he did or didn't? Ultimately, the guy who works with a player the most, a guy who apparently seems to know something about the entire secondary, not just CB's, should have seen it too. Hell, half the posters here seemed to recognize it.

All that said, I don't necessarily think Randall was traded out of Green Bay, just because he was an inconsistent CB, but more that his attitude was something that the coaches probably were tired of.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

You might be right there. Breeland has looked pretty good. The rookies have been pretty good at limiting separation, refreshing progress from prior seasons, but their ball awareness is not there yet. If a QB is going to throw to tight separation, he's going to go where he believes the guy is not going to get his head around. I reckon there is upside with these young guys.

Taken in a blind vacuum, re-signing Breeland would be a slam dunk. But what's he going to cost and what are the doctors saying about King's chronic shoulder pops? Will Pettine still be around and would he want to go dime heavy as he did earlier in the season before the injuries started hitting?

Whether Carolina voided that nice contract for some combination of non-football injury / non-disclosure of injury / recurring childhood injury / perceived severity of injury, he appears to be back to full strength. Even as somebody's #2 with outside / slot flexibility, he could pull down some nice coin. If I were New Orleans right now, I'd wish I had him instead of having to trade for Eli Apple, which goes to show how even good defenses on winning teams can have holes at spots that can't be papered over.

Breeland is the kind of guy I'd like to see the Packers sign. Though not quite a second contract guy, he'll be in his 6th. year while appearing none the worse for wear. I suspect he'll be unaffordable given the other holes to fill.

And if we're talking about Breeland / Cobb / Matthews at $15 mil cap, with usable cap dropping to about $15 mil barring vet cuts, where is the roster improvement?

Ball awareness seems to be an underlying and forever theme with a lot of our secondary. I honestly don't know what has happened to Jackson. That seemed to be what his trademark was and why he was touted as a possible first round. Maybe he is the guy you want to move to safety? I'm still excited about JA and his potential. I wouldn't say you move on from King, but you sure can't even pencil or crayon him in for much due to his injury history. Based on what Breeland has shown, I would put him in the top 3 resigns of importance to the 2019 team.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I am admittedly not a football expert, but whose fault IS it when someone's playing out of position?

In this case it might have been McCarthy's, Caper's or even Thompson's. The CB coach is probably the last place to look.

Moving Randall to safety would have required planning, acquiring the CB to replace him. So, who would you think might be the decisiion maker in that regard? The Packers did not draft a corner in 2016, and then drafted King to fill the obvious hole on the other side in 2017. If the move was ever contemplated, which was never mentioned publicly, the moves were not made to have that happen.

And don't expect a CB coach with talent and injury issues to advocate kicking a guy over to another guy's room.

 

[GleefulGary]

I am admittedly not a football expert, but whose fault IS it when someone's playing out of position?

See, that's a hard question. I don't know how GB has/had their heirarchy setup in that regard.

But, the primary person I would blame in Randall playing out of position is Ted Thompson. He didn't bring in, or keep, CB's. He drafted Randall to play a position he didn't play in college. The coaches can only play the guys we have. The unfortunate truth is that Randall was playing out of position, and was still our best CB last year. I wouldn't blame Whitt or Capers for that, personally.

I would blame Capers for his awful schemes. That certainly didn't help matters at all.

 

[Poppa San]

Kenny Clark on what attributes he'd want in a new coach, per Rapoport:

Not sure if this is appropriate enough to fit under the strict parameters of this particular thread, but thought I'd give it a shot. Hope it doesn't get deleted.

Not deleted, moved.

 

[GleefulGary]

You kind of sold me on the reason the Packers used Randall out of position, but this last part doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You are painting a pretty broad picture with that statement. "DC decides all, no questions asked." While I agree with you, a DC isn't necessarily going to take marching orders from one of his positional coaches, but if you think a DC doesn't rely on his positional coaches for accurate assessments of the guys he is in charge of coaching, than I think you are missing something. Maybe Capers and McCarthy should have noticed that Randall was playing out of position, maybe they did and Whitt assured them he wasn't, do we know if he did or didn't? Ultimately, the guy who works with a player the most, a guy who apparently seems to know something about the entire secondary, not just CB's, should have seen it too. Hell, half the posters here seemed to recognize it.

All that said, I don't necessarily think Randall was traded out of Green Bay, just because he was an inconsistent CB, but more that his attitude was something that the coaches probably were tired of.

I have a feeling they all knew Randall was playing out of position. We just didn't have any better options. I can't blame the coaches for that.

 

[GleefulGary]

Ball awareness seems to be an underlying and forever theme with a lot of our secondary. I honestly don't know what has happened to Jackson. That seemed to be what his trademark was and why he was touted as a possible first round. Maybe he is the guy you want to move to safety? I'm still excited about JA and his potential. I wouldn't say you move on from King, but you sure can't even pencil or crayon him in for much due to his injury history. Based on what Breeland has shown, I would put him in the top 3 resigns of importance to the 2019 team.

I don't think our DB's have been that bad.

A lack of consistent pressure from a standard 4 man DL rush hasn't helped. We have a lot of sacks, but primarily due to the creativity of Pettine, if that makes sense.

Josh Jackson struggles in man coverage. He's good in zone. He's also coming from a conference where he's not completely used to professional athletes and quarterbacks . But seriously, the kid only played one year, and while he has great instincts, it was fairly well known that he had technique issues, and athleticism issues. With his athleticism, his technique needs to be precise. He's still grabbing guys at the top of routes, like he did in college when he got beat. We just see it more because he's going up against NFL guys now.

He's still flashed though. Give him a year or two. Honestly, Alexander isn't quite fair. Most rookie DB's are going to struggle. I'm far more concerned about JJ's tackling, which is putrid. Which is why they can't move him to safety.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I don't think our DB's have been that bad.

A lack of consistent pressure from a standard 4 man DL rush hasn't helped. We have a lot of sacks, but primarily due to the creativity of Pettine, if that makes sense.

Josh Jackson struggles in man coverage. He's good in zone. He's also coming from a conference where he's not completely used to professional athletes and quarterbacks . But seriously, the kid only played one year, and while he has great instincts, it was fairly well known that he had technique issues, and athleticism issues. With his athleticism, his technique needs to be precise. He's still grabbing guys at the top of routes, like he did in college when he got beat. We just see it more because he's going up against NFL guys now.

He's still flashed though. Give him a year or two. Honestly, Alexander isn't quite fair. Most rookie DB's are going to struggle. I'm far more concerned about JJ's tackling, which is putrid. Which is why they can't move him to safety.

Yeah, it's pretty rare for a CB to emerge fully formed in his first year. They are not only dealing with a steady dose of more experienced/stronger/quicker/faster receivers than they saw in college. They are dealing with receivers running more sophisticated route trees and combinations and against NFL QBs where theeir margin for error is much smaller. I think the rookie corners showed pretty well this season. Upside is indicated, but not certain. You never know where the top might be.

I don't think it needs to be said that what a guy has done and where he is at when his college career is over is not the point for the above reasons. The point is where the guy can go, and that is the art of the draft. Those who pooh pooh the Combine or don't pay attention to the All Star games (where the unmeasured drills and how guys respond to coaching is as important as the measured drills) probably don't get that.

 

[Do7]

At this point in time I think Rodgers may benefit from a defensive mind coach better than an offensive minded one.

 

[sschind]

Kenny Clark on what attributes he'd want in a new coach, per Rapoport:

Not sure if this is appropriate enough to fit under the strict parameters of this particular thread, but thought I'd give it a shot. Hope it doesn't get deleted.

I'm a little disappointed to see a veteran NFL defensive lineman say he needs someone to motivate him. Hopefully he was talking about some of the other players and not himself. Although that is only slightly more encouraging.