Packers sign P Pat O'Donnell

[PikeBadger]

I thought Kuhn was a darned good player. He could block, and when he did carry the ball, he did what was expected of him.

Me too

 

[OldSchool101]

Next, here's the list of all time career leaders in kicking. If you notice, our highest kicker in history is Longwell, at 34, and Crosby at 52. Next, without going through it all, look at the stadiums these leaders were kicking in. The tundra is not on their list, except at most, as a visitor, once a year.

All Time Kicking Leaders

Good stuff. I Like the debate.

Longwell went from Lambeau to a Dome in MN. It’s a near perfect example of worst to best case.
At Lambeau he was 13/22 over
50+ kicks For 59%
At MN he was 11/17 64%
That’s going from difficult 1/2 season to easier dome 1/2 season, exactly 5%, which is exactly what I surmised. Using 50+ and a large sample with the exact same Kicker and going from most difficult to near easiest we get roughly a 5% variance. I’m going to lower that differential to guess it’s about a ~4% variance from the leaguewide conditions and that’s being generous.

What about other OUTDOOR stadiums. It’s not exactly easy for Gostkowski in Foxborough, that NE area ranks as the top windiest regions in the entire U.S. as one known example, Boston is #4 windiest City in the entire country. Foxborough isn’t a joke to kick in.
I looked at your list you provided because it’s a arguable similar example. Gostkowski is 5% higher FG% than Crosby! across their careers (large sample size). That’s a significant and fair comparable.
Buffalo is another City with easily comparable wind to GB, actually everywhere I looked Buffalo ranked worse wind than GB. There are other tough venues and there are examples of kickers besting Crosby in those difficult venues.

Robbie Gould was 23/31 at 50+ and he’s at Soldier Field. That’s 74.2%!! Besting Crosby by 15% on 50+

We could argue that old Mason should elevate from top 50 to top 30-35 area in that all time list (several other kickers would elevate also factoring Wind or cold). That’s as far as the wind will take him.

 

[Voyageur]

I can only go by what the stats say, and what I observed. It might not just be wind, but how the wind rips through the stadium. They talk about the swirling in Lambeau, but that's all I'm certain of.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I can only go by what the stats say, and what I observed. It might not just be wind, but how the wind rips through the stadium. They talk about the swirling in Lambeau, but that's all I'm certain of.

That's what the wind did at the old Candlestick Park in SF. The wind came in off the bay and just swirled. Especially is summer, the park was cold and damp. I've never seen so many dropped pop ups. As for football, it was anybody's guess which way the wind was blowing on a FG.

 

[Voyageur]

That's what the wind did at the old Candlestick Park in SF. The wind came in off the bay and just swirled. Especially is summer, the park was cold and damp. I've never seen so many dropped pop ups. As for football, it was anybody's guess which way the wind was blowing on a FG.

I've been to baseball and football games at Oakland-Alameda stadium, and that was an interesting place too.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I've been to baseball and football games at Oakland-Alameda stadium, and that was an interesting place too.

Oh man that place is wild. Been there for an As game. Wouldn't go close for a Raiders' game. If they don't tear it down soon it's just gonna fall down.

 

[gopkrs]

O'Donnell looked to me like a 40 to 45 yard punter with little or no runback. Very conservative imho.

 

[Heyjoe4]

O'Donnell looked to me like a 40 to 45 yard punter with little or no runback. Very conservative imho.

Well if he can net 40 to 45 yards that would be fine. And that includes the cold months.

 

[Voyageur]

Oh man that place is wild. Been there for an As game. Wouldn't go close for a Raiders' game. If they don't tear it down soon it's just gonna fall down.

Went to a White Sox double-header with the A's back in the 70s, with my Cousin. We brought a kid with us, from Montana, and his Uncle. They'd never been to a MLB game. Reggie Jackson was with the A's, and the kid was a Jackson and A's fan. I thought he was going to wet his pants just going to the game, he was so happy.

After the game, we went down to the players area so the kid could get Reggie's autograph. When Reggie came out, he just blew past the kid, ignoring him. My Cousin, who wasn't the type to allow that to happen, went over to Jackson and told him to get his "rear end" back to the kid and sign his name. Jackson did, but never cracked a smile, or said a word. The kid had asked him a couple of questions, and he ignored him. He was really upset.

Well, I knew a player for the Sox, from my days in Chicago. So I went over to their bus, and caught him as he was going to get in. We talked for a bit, and I had my Cousin bring the kid over. He shook his hand, and gave him a great big smile. Then he invited the kid into the bus, and everyone greeted him, signed a baseball for him, and then Ed Farmer, who was a pitcher for them, gave him a game jersey that nearly all of them signed.

When we left Oakland, a kid who was a life-long A's fan became an instant White Sox fan.

That was my only seriously good memory of Oakland. It's not a place that I care to ever visit again.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Went to a White Sox double-header with the A's back in the 70s, with my Cousin. We brought a kid with us, from Montana, and his Uncle. They'd never been to a MLB game. Reggie Jackson was with the A's, and the kid was a Jackson and A's fan. I thought he was going to wet his pants just going to the game, he was so happy.

After the game, we went down to the players area so the kid could get Reggie's autograph. When Reggie came out, he just blew past the kid, ignoring him. My Cousin, who wasn't the type to allow that to happen, went over to Jackson and told him to get his "rear end" back to the kid and sign his name. Jackson did, but never cracked a smile, or said a word. The kid had asked him a couple of questions, and he ignored him. He was really upset.

Well, I knew a player for the Sox, from my days in Chicago. So I went over to their bus, and caught him as he was going to get in. We talked for a bit, and I had my Cousin bring the kid over. He shook his hand, and gave him a great big smile. Then he invited the ki d into the bus, and everyone greeted him, signed a baseball for him, and then Ed Farmer, who was a pitcher for them, gave him a game jersey that nearly all of them signed.

When we left Oakland, a kid who was a life-long A's fan became an instant White Sox fan.

That was my only seriously good memory of Oakland. It's not a place that I care to ever visit again.

Well that's a great story. Reggie Jackson's attitude doesn't surprise me, but it sounds like the young fan came away with so much more and certainly a memory that will last a lifetime. Thanks V that story brightened a gloomy day here.

 

[OldSchool101]

Happy Sunday guys!

I was looking at ESPN for O’Donnell stats and just ST in general. GB completely dominated SF49ers except for 1 major faux pas. A missed chip shot FG by Brkic

Other than that the longest return of their 5 attempts was a 26 yarder KR and that’s essentially a stalemate. The other couple KR’s went for around 20 yards and 1 pinned them at the 5 yard line. Our Packers ST beat them by over 10 yards per return. The lone SF49 PR was 7 yards. Aside from a camp K missing a gimme FG? we easily beat up on SF49ers ST.

That said, we missed on 3 points of a potential 6 points (missed chip shot) on ST and points are the most important stat there is. So we took a ++ day and broke even. Even still, this ST unit already looks better

 

[Heyjoe4]

Happy Sunday guys!

I was looking at ESPN for O’Donnell stats and just ST in general. GB completely dominated SF49ers except for 1 major faux pas. A missed chip shot FG by Brkic

Other than that the longest return of their 5 attempts was a 26 yarder KR and that’s essentially a stalemate. The other KR went for around 20 yards and 1 pinned them at the 5 yard line. Our Packers ST beat them by over 10 yards per return. The lone SF49 PR was 7 yards

That said, we missed on 3 points of a potential 6 points (missed chip shot) on ST and points are the most important stat there is. So we took a ++ day and broke even. Even still, this ST unit already looks better

Well they couldn't look much worse that last year, the last game in particular. So this is a good sign. And typical of STs, we almost always hear about them when they mess up. It was STs that won the SB for GB in 97 after all.

 

[milani]

Actually, when you look at the history of Packer kickers, you'll find that Crosby is 2nd all time in percentage. Only Longwell is ahead of him for a career.

Longwell 81.6%, Crosby 81.1%. There's a lot of kickers behind the two of them that people were excited about when they played in GB.

It's difficult kicking in GB no matter when the game is played, because of the heavy air off the bay, and swirling winds in the end zones. But, I'm not trying to change anyone's minds. We all gotta believe what we gotta believe.

NFL Kicking Stats

Paul Hornung comes to mind. Look up his stats for 1964. Even for that time it was horrific.

 

[milani]

Well they couldn't look much worse that last year, the last game in particular. So this is a good sign. And typical of STs, we almost always hear about them when they mess up. It was STs that won the SB for GB in 97 after all.

Even if our ST is average last year we beat the 9ers and we even beat KC without Rodgers playing.

 

[OldSchool101]

Even if our ST is average last year we beat the 9ers and we even beat KC without Rodgers playing.

Surprisingly, ST is often the unit that decides the outcome of otherwise relatively equal competition. Here is a scenario where our Defense was superior and we still lost, that’s unusual.
Our D gave up 6 points over 4 Qtrs (obviously weather factored also)

 

[gopkrs]

Paul Hornung comes to mind. Look up his stats for 1964. Even for that time it was horrific.

Was that the year after he came back after gambling? He was really bad.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'd suggest people look at the success rate of all kickers in Lambeau Field, year after year. You'll find that kicking in the Tundra can be a nightmare, even when the mechanics are correct.

Yet opposing kickers have combined to make a higher percentage of field goals (while having a higher average distance) at Lambeau since 2007 than Crosby has done over his career.

I believe Lambeau Field is the worst stadium in the NFC, and only Oakland is worse as a place to kick?

I don't think there's any truth to that statement. Since 2007, kickers have made 83.84% of all field goal attempts around the league. Opposing kickers have made 83.60% of their attempts at Lambeau over the same period. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference kicking at Lambeau.

Of course Crosby's average at home is a bit lower than the league average at 81.70%.

Actually, when you look at the history of Packer kickers, you'll find that Crosby is 2nd all time in percentage. Only Longwell is ahead of him for a career.

Longwell 81.6%, Crosby 81.1%. There's a lot of kickers behind the two of them that people were excited about when they played in GB.

The huge difference being that Longwell was an above average kicker from 1997-2005 (Longwell: 81.59%, League average: 78,87% - +2,72%) while Crosby has been a below average one since 2007 (Crosby: 81,14% League average: 83,84% - -2.70%).

GB completely dominated SF49ers except for 1 major faux pas. A missed chip shot FG by Brkic

The Packers also received a penalty on the first kickoff return as well.

 

[Voyageur]

Yet opposing kickers have combined to make a higher percentage of field goals (while having a higher average distance) at Lambeau since 2007 than Crosby has done over his career.



I don't think there's any truth to that statement. Since 2007, kickers have made 83.84% of all field goal attempts around the league. Opposing kickers have made 83.60% of their attempts at Lambeau over the same period. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference kicking at Lambeau.

Of course Crosby's average at home is a bit lower than the league average at 81.70%.



The huge difference being that Longwell was an above average kicker from 1997-2005 (Longwell: 81.59%, League average: 78,87% - +2,72%) while Crosby has been a below average one since 2007 (Crosby: 81,14% League average: 83,84% - -2.70%).



The Packers also received a penalty on the first kickoff return as well.

I'm not certain the stats shown tell the whole story. They don't indicate the length of kicks missed, blocked kicks, muffed snaps, actual weather conditions, and a myriad of other factors that can relate to actually kicking field goals. It's like comparing the extra point of today against that of the past, when the ball was marked close to the goal line. There is going to be a difference but if you ignore ball placement, you can say that extra point efficiency has suffered, and let it appear to be because of poor kicking.

I also find it hard to believe that the Packers would continue to keep a less than average kicker year after year, and give him new contracts, if he's not at least in the upper half of the kicking group, regardless of what the percentages show.

In other words, stats tell a story, but they fall way short of telling the whole story.

Another point to consider is that a lot of teams visiting Green Bay will opt to punt, or go for it on 4th down in bad weather, instead of trying that longer FG. At the same time, we've seen Crosby asked to give them a shot more than any other kicker in Packer history. I doubt they'd ask it of him, if they didn't believe in him.

But, this is just my opinion, based on on observations. I could be wrong.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I'm not certain the stats shown tell the whole story. They don't indicate the length of kicks missed, blocked kicks, muffed snaps, actual weather conditions, and a myriad of other factors that can relate to actually kicking field goals. It's like comparing the extra point of today against that of the past, when the ball was marked close to the goal line. There is going to be a difference but if you ignore ball placement, you can say that extra point efficiency has suffered, and let it appear to be because of poor kicking.

I also find it hard to believe that the Packers would continue to keep a less than average kicker year after year, and give him new contracts, if he's not at least in the upper half of the kicking group, regardless of what the percentages show.

In other words, stats tell a story, but they fall way short of telling the whole story.

Another point to consider is that a lot of teams visiting Green Bay will opt to punt, or go for it on 4th down in bad weather, instead of trying that longer FG. At the same time, we've seen Crosby asked to give them a shot more than any other kicker in Packer history. I doubt they'd ask it of him, if they didn't believe in him.

But, this is just my opinion, based on on observations. I could be wrong.

I agree with you on assessing Crosby, and the difficulty in assessing kickers in general. I won't repeat the points you make but evaluating kickers not named Justin Tucker is very subjective. Over his career I've always liked Crosby and I'm glad he's a Packer. I do believe that if any of the GMs during his tenure thought they found a better kicker, they would have cut him. And even this year, watching Brkic's horrible shank in perfect conditions in Santa Clara (and that's Crosby's competition?????), evaluating kickers is not easy or straightforward.

 

[milani]

Surprisingly, ST is often the unit that decides the outcome of otherwise relatively equal competition. Here is a scenario where our Defense was superior and we still lost, that’s unusual.
Our D gave up 6 points over 4 Qtrs (obviously weather factored also)

And our D did phenomenal against Mahommes and the powerful KC attack. 2 rare but great D efforts that went to waste. Think of all the playoff losses we had over the last 15 seasons when we could have used just one of those.

 

[milani]

Yes. It was. He came back in May and Lombardi had him running up the bleacher steps to get his legs in shape. He lost weight, was weaker, had less stamina, and was 2 years older. And back in 1962 he really did not kick the whole season due to injury. Jerry Kramer did thankfully. Hornung was never a great kicker but adequate for 3 and 1/2 seasons. Kramer had that injury/illness in 1964 and hardly played. Lombardi failed to shop for a kicker and it may have cost us a shot at the Colts that year. Hornung went 12 for 38! And missed 2 extra points. And in those days extra points were a measly 10 yards distance! His kicking cost us 2-4 games.

Was that the year after he came back after gambling? He was really bad.

Was that the year after he came back after gambling? He was really bad.

 

[Heyjoe4]

And our D did phenomenal against Mahommes and the powerful KC attack. 2 rare but great D efforts that went to waste. Think of all the playoff losses we had over the last 15 seasons when we could have used just one of those.

It's painful to recall. Could've used a good D in the NFCCG *** kickings by SF and Atlanta.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm not certain the stats shown tell the whole story. They don't indicate the length of kicks missed, blocked kicks, muffed snaps, actual weather conditions, and a myriad of other factors that can relate to actually kicking field goals.

Crosby's average distance of field goals missed (45.50 yards) is de facto the league average (45.49 yards) as well since 2007. While the percentage of kicks blocked is higher for Crosby (2.85%) than the league average (1.97%) it's tough to figure out if some of them should be blamed on him.

I have said it repeatedly, Crosby is the only player I can remember the majority of fans have gone to length to come up with excuses for his performance despite evidence showing he has been below average for most of his career. I really have no clue about the reasoning behind it.

On the other hand those fans want to throw Rodgers under the bus after performing below his standards in a single game without hesitation. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Another point to consider is that a lot of teams visiting Green Bay will opt to punt, or go for it on 4th down in bad weather, instead of trying that longer FG. At the same time, we've seen Crosby asked to give them a shot more than any other kicker in Packer history. I doubt they'd ask it of him, if they didn't believe in him.

Once again, opposing kickers (38.38 yards) have a higher average distance of field goal attempts at Lambeau than Crosby (37.71) since 2007.

I do believe that if any of the GMs during his tenure thought they found a better kicker, they would have cut him. And even this year, watching Brkic's horrible shank in perfect conditions in Santa Clara (and that's Crosby's competition?????), evaluating kickers is not easy or straightforward.

I agree the Packers front office hasn't been able to find a better kicker than Crosby. They should be criticized for not being able to upgrade the position from a below average kicker. It shouldn't be considered as evidence for Crosby being a top kicker though.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Crosby's average distance of field goals missed (45.50 yards) is de facto the league average (45.49 yards) as well since 2007. While the percentage of kicks blocked is higher for Crosby (2.85%) than the league average (1.97%) it's tough to figure out if some of them should be blamed on him.

I have said it repeatedly, Crosby is the only player I can remember the majority of fans have gone to length to come up with excuses for his performance despite evidence showing he has been below average for most of his career. I really have no clue about the reasoning behind it.

On the other hand those fans want to throw Rodgers under the bus after performing below his standards in a single game without hesitation. Doesn't make any sense to me.



Once again, opposing kickers (38.38 yards) have a higher average distance of field goal attempts at Lambeau than Crosby (37.71) since 2007.
.


I agree the Packers front office hasn't been able to find a better kicker than Crosby. They should be criticized for not being able to upgrade the position from a below average kicker. It shouldn't be considered as evidence for Crosby being a top kicker though.

Correct on faulting management for not finding a better kicker over the last three or four years. I disagree with you that Crosby is a below-average kicker. I know the stats, I know what they show. Given the variety of playing conditions across the league, evaluating kickers includes a fair mount of subjective evaluation. So i've always been a fan of Crosby. I understand why you and some others haven't.

What I do agree with is that it's a few years past time GB had a new kicker. Crosby's age is showing, and it may just be he's getting tired of the grind. No matter, this is one area Gluten has to seriously address before next season. And please, no more Bricks. Oops, I meant Brkic. Freudian slip.

 

[gopkrs]

We know what we have with Crosby and it isn't bad at all. I would hate to play musical field goal kickers going into the season