Packers and Jaylon Smith closing in on a deal

[mradtke66]

Hmmm. Is this a recording? There’s no way that exact same thing could be said 13 times without the verbiage changing. Trying to figure out why to many posters.. Tackles don’t measure a LB’s performance, yet here? they are a measurement to a fault.

Boy do I feel stupid if you’ve actually been on vacation this whole time and these are just pre-recorded, canned responses.

I’m going to test this theory these are prerecorded..,
So, other than week 15-16 in 2015… Captain how does Clay make you feel?

And What’s your Mother’s Maiden name?

As an ILB, meh at best.

Yes he continued to get sacks when he moved there, but

a: Rushing the passer as an ILB is a tertiary benefit.
b: He still got plenty of snaps at EDGE when the Packers played dime.

He was okay dropping into zone coverage, but to my eye, he was doing stuff on instinct, not necessarily to scheme. On one hand, it shows his football IQ. On the other, if he's not where he is "supposed" to be, teams will pick on him. I suspect this is what happened. He got that early pick against the Bears and then did little else.

For man coverage, nope. He didn't have the right kind of athletic talents for that. 1-2 times a game to keep them honest, sure. Little more than that.

IMHO, they rushed him so much from ILB because he was bad enough in coverage that rushing 5 was seen as the least-bad option.

For the running game, he was kind of lost. He made good plays because he was fast, but if you watch recordings of his time at ILB, there was a lot of false steps, picking the wrong hole to fill, etc. He made it work because of how athletic he was, but he had terrible fundamentals for an Off The Ball Linebacker. Which lead to the 2 games w/o a tackle.

My second **: People we just happy to have someone with a pulse at ILB that year. We were sufficiently bad that as bad as Clay was, he was still head and shoulders better than everyone else we trotted out.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Felt like I joined the Blake Martinez thread for a second.

Is it just me or does Jaylon Smith look a bit lost and/or on speed out there? It is like he is running all over the place, but either the wrong direction or he over pursues. I know its early and he probably has some catching up to do, but the guy was a terror at ND and then in his first few years at Dallas.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Hmmm. Is this a recording? There’s no way that exact same thing could be said 13 times without the verbiage changing. Trying to figure out why to many posters.. Tackles don’t measure a LB’s performance, yet here? they are a measurement to a fault.

Boy do I feel stupid if you’ve actually been on vacation this whole time and these are just pre-recorded, canned responses.

I’m going to test this theory these are prerecorded..,
So, other than week 15-16 in 2015… Captain how does Clay make you feel?

And What’s your Mother’s Maiden name?

Where were you on the eve of Dec 6th 1941?

And I'm sure if we dig far enough we'll find two consecutive games where Rodgers' threw an INT. Get ridda de bum! (Mark Twain is still right on the three types of lies - lies, damned lies, and statistics!)

As for CMIII, I wish he had lasted longer. But he didn't. You can still make a pretty good argument that GB loses the 2010 SB without him. Just sayin.

 

[DoctorChicken]

Felt like I joined the Blake Martinez thread for a second.

Is it just me or does Jaylon Smith look a bit lost and/or on speed out there? It is like he is running all over the place, but either the wrong direction or he over pursues. I know its early and he probably has some catching up to do, but the guy was a terror at ND and then in his first few years at Dallas.

Us Dallas fans have noticed this the past couple years. He is always all over the place, but not where he needs to be. It's uncanny.

I do wonder if it's because he's subconsciously overcompensating because of his injury.

 

[OldSchool101]

And I'm sure if we dig far enough we'll find two consecutive games where Rodgers' threw an INT. Get ridda de bum! (Mark Twain is still right on the three types of lies - lies, damned lies, and statistics!)

Not sure if you thought about that before you wrote it but I’ve got news. In the real, non-fictional world EVERYTHING is based around numbers and their relationship. Starting with .., The foundation of the world!

In Sports:
Wins and Losses? Are Statistical
Game Scores? Statistics
Game Clock? Statistics
Field position? Statistics
Players ages and associated dropoff in play? Statistical
Comparisons of draft placing and associated values to specific players?
You got it
Salary and Bonus information?
Play time, snap counts, production levels?
all of them… all Statistics

As far as old Samuel “Twain” comments. He was a terrific “fictional” literary genius, but not a literalist. Clements trademark was controversial works that were aimed at humor and sprinkled with Satire. Not to be taken literally

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Us Dallas fans have noticed this the past couple years. He is always all over the place, but not where he needs to be. It's uncanny.

I do wonder if it's because he's subconsciously overcompensating because of his injury.

Martinez was playing that way in Green Bay, when healthy. He made a ton of tackles, but didn't engage until there was already at least a 4-6 yard gain.

Jaylon Smith seems to have happy feet too. He hasn't played much yet, but seems to over pursue when he does.

Sad to read this, I hadn't really thought about Blake this season....

"Martinez was quickly ruled out of Sunday’s game after going down with a non-contact injury after missing a tackle in the first quarter.....has a torn ACL, per sources. He will miss the remainder of the season."

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Again that wasn't part of this whole discussion however. I am not sure you'll find a single person on this board that would say he was an impact player.

I know the discussion was about Martinez being a decent inside linebacker. I don't consider him being one because of a lack of impact plays.

Hmmm. Is this a recording? There’s no way that exact same thing could be said 13 times without the verbiage changing. Trying to figure out why to many posters.. Tackles don’t measure a LB’s performance, yet here? they are a measurement to a fault.

The differences being that the total number of tackles for an inside linebacker doesn't tell anything about where those were made. But having a player at the position going two games without one serves as evidence for him being out of position a lot.

As for CMIII, I wish he had lasted longer. But he didn't. You can still make a pretty good argument that GB loses the 2010 SB without him. Just sayin.

There's no doubt Matthews was a big part of the Packers winning the Super Bowl in 2010. He played edge rusher at that point though.

 

[tynimiller]

I know the discussion was about Martinez being a decent inside linebacker. I don't consider him being one because of a lack of impact plays.

Man it would suck having you as a parent or boss...clearly you have to be stellar to even be consider a measely decent employee or child. LOL

 

[PikeBadger]

Not sure if you thought about that before you wrote it but I’ve got news. In the real, non-fictional world EVERYTHING is based around numbers and their relationship. Starting with .., The foundation of the world!

In Sports:
Wins and Losses? Are Statistical
Game Scores? Statistics
Game Clock? Statistics
Field position? Statistics
Players ages and associated dropoff in play? Statistical
Comparisons of draft placing and associated values to specific players?
You got it
Salary and Bonus information?
Play time, snap counts, production levels?
all of them… all Statistics

As far as old Samuel “Twain” comments. He was a terrific “fictional” literary genius, but not a literalist. Clements trademark was controversial works that were aimed at humor and sprinkled with Satire. Not to be taken literally

Well said........... however, this planet is overrun with people who regularly misuse and misinterpret statistics.

Statistics are great but everything must pass the eye test eventually.

 

[gopkrs]

Not sure if you thought about that before you wrote it but I’ve got news. In the real, non-fictional world EVERYTHING is based around numbers and their relationship. Starting with .., The foundation of the world!

In Sports:
Wins and Losses? Are Statistical
Game Scores? Statistics
Game Clock? Statistics
Field position? Statistics
Players ages and associated dropoff in play? Statistical
Comparisons of draft placing and associated values to specific players?
You got it
Salary and Bonus information?
Play time, snap counts, production levels?
all of them… all Statistics

As far as old Samuel “Twain” comments. He was a terrific “fictional” literary genius, but not a literalist. Clements trademark was controversial works that were aimed at humor and sprinkled with Satire. Not to be taken literally

Until you get to "production levels" most are stats that you can sink your teeth into. But the more complicated stats start to become subjective and there are more ways to read them then just as a given statistic. It makes statistics interesting but also more prone to error (not understanding all of the correlations or making false correlations). That is why the Mark Twain quote. People use stats for their own, sometimes nefarious, reasons. imho And people tend to make the correlations match with their already preconceived notions. For the real, objective statistician; imo it is sometimes an art, and definitely a mental capacity to see how a seemingly small part of the equation affects other parts.

 

[Mondio]

Man it would suck having you as a parent or boss...clearly you have to be stellar to even be consider a measely decent employee or child. LOL

I think in Capt's defense, people keep bringing him up and his tackles and I also get the feeling they feel he was more than just "decent" or he wouldn't be a topic of conversation. His biggest attributes were he was available and within a few ticks of average with more ticks being on the short side than the impact side if you ask me.

We didn't miss him when he was replaced by brand new guys, most brand new to the NFL besides the FA vet who missed at least 1/3rd of the year to injury anyway. And this year, regardless of who has what for final stats I'd say we upgraded his position substantially.

If Burks and Summers were our starters, would the conversation be we should have paid him 10million per year to retain him because he was worth it? or we should have drafted a couple more 4th -7th round linebackers that do what he did every day in this league?

 

[tynimiller]

I think in Capt's defense, people keep bringing him up and his tackles and I also get the feeling they feel he was more than just "decent" or he wouldn't be a topic of conversation. His biggest attributes were he was available and within a few ticks of average with more ticks being on the short side than the impact side if you ask me.

We didn't miss him when he was replaced by brand new guys, most brand new to the NFL besides the FA vet who missed at least 1/3rd of the year to injury anyway. And this year, regardless of who has what for final stats I'd say we upgraded his position substantially.

If Burks and Summers were our starters, would the conversation be we should have paid him 10million per year to retain him because he was worth it? or we should have drafted a couple more 4th -7th round linebackers that do what he did every day in this league?

Agreed, he isn't worth what he cost to retain and most assumed would be easiiy replaced or hoped so. He was.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Until you get to "production levels" most are stats that you can sink your teeth into. But the more complicated stats start to become subjective and there are more ways to read them then just as a given statistic. It makes statistics interesting but also more prone to error (not understanding all of the correlations or making false correlations). That is why the Mark Twain quote. People use stats for their own, sometimes nefarious, reasons. imho And people tend to make the correlations match with their already preconceived notions. For the real, objective statistician; imo it is sometimes an art, and definitely a mental capacity to see how a seemingly small part of the equation affects other parts.

Most of the issues you bring up are things that professionals who work with statistics know about and correct for. The advanced use of statistics is important and extremely helpful for play calling, game management, and player analysis. Most of those complaining about statistics just don't understand them enough to trust them. It's also important to understand that small sampe size can be a problem in the NFL compared to sports like baseball or basketball.

 

[gopkrs]

Most of the issues you bring up are things that professionals who work with statistics know about and correct for. The advanced use of statistics is important and extremely helpful for play calling, game management, and player analysis. Most of those complaining about statistics just don't understand them enough to trust them.

You make it sound like they can always gleam "the truth." Which just is not correct. They can be very wrong with their conclusions. And that can be costly. I guess you don't agree with Mark Twain's quote either.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

You make it sound like they can always gleam "the truth." Which just is not correct. They can be very wrong with their conclusions. And that can be costly. I guess you don't agree with Mark Twain's quote either.

I said they were helpful, not definitive. Ignoring stats because they're not perfect is much worse than using stats with the understanding of their limitations.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I know the discussion was about Martinez being a decent inside linebacker. I don't consider him being one because of a lack of impact plays.




The differences being that the total number of tackles for an inside linebacker doesn't tell anything about where those were made. But having a player at the position going two games without one serves as evidence for him being out of position a lot.




There's no doubt Matthews was a big part of the Packers winning the Super Bowl in 2010. He played edge rusher at that point though.

Right. I don't know when the team started experimenting with CMIII playing inside, but it was well after the SB win. And when TT moved up to draft him, I'm pretty sure he never considered him as anything but an edge rusher.

 

[gopkrs]

I said they were helpful, not definitive. Ignoring stats because they're not perfect is much worse than using stats with the understanding of their limitations.

Not always

 

[tynimiller]

Not always

Mostly...sometimes

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If you Google "Don't count on Stats to equal production", there is a picture of Josh Jackson.

 

[tynimiller]

If you Google "Don't count on Stats to equal production", there is a picture of Josh Jackson.

and honestly the reverse example would be Marcedes Lewis IMO - so underrated and under appreciated by those that just don't know.

 

[Half Empty]

Not always

Thanks. That clears it all up.

 

[gopkrs]

Right. I don't know when the team started experimenting with CMIII playing inside, but it was well after the SB win. And when TT moved up to draft him, I'm pretty sure he never considered him as anything but an edge rusher.

I had wanted him inside at the later time because he could no longer beat a half way decent L tackle. That he did not get a bunch of tackles did not bother me so much because he was playing aggressively from the inside linebacker position, even though he was mostly right up to the line of scrimmage. We were so passive at that time that I just liked somebody else in the middle. And I did not want to see him as an edge.

 

[gopkrs]

Thanks. That clears it all up.

You want clear. Stay away from statistics. Well, at least be skeptical.

 

[El Guapo]

10 pages of crap about Clay Matthews and Martinez....in a thread about Jaylon Smith. You guys epitomize the old jokes about Packers fans holding onto the past too long!

I agree with you Poker about Smith - happy feet. What I saw of his limited time on Sunday, it matched what that one Cowboys fan posted with the video of how bad Jaylon Smith has been playing recently. He was near every play but I don't remember him making any except for one tackle. He did over-run a play to the edge that forced a screen back inside. The broadcasters praised him on that one. To me it just looked like he overran the play. On the first Washington TD, he got near the QB but only because he wasn't blocked. When the RB picked up his blitz, Smith did recover but got pushed away a second time by the RB - which allowed the QB to throw the TD.

I saw a lot of mediocre play out of Packers players. Henry Black plays well on special teams and has had some good plays at safety, but did not play well Sunday. He completely missed the screen tackle, was slow in coverage, and just wasn't in the right places.

At the moment Smith fits in with all of the backups. Hopefully that all gets cleaned up REALLY fast.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Agreed. I didn't watch Smith play that much when he was at Dallas, but something had to have happened to him in the last year or so. He was All Pro in 2019, team Captain, given a pretty hefty extension (5 year $65M, with $35.5 M guaranteed) and suddenly 2 years later, the Cowboys replace him with 1st and 4th round rookies.

I am hoping that he just got a big head, a bit lazy and now realizes he is battling for his career.