Packers 1st round selection, #12 overall: Rashan Gary, DE

[Pugger]

In his post game radio interview LeFluer talked about how Gary is one of the hardest workers he has ever seen and how good it feels to see him blossoming as a player. High praise from the coach. Excited with how Gary could develop

If he continues to improve a lot of folks on Packers message boards will have to google crow recipes online.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I'm not sure he's worth the cut.

Yeah, he's not doing the same pass rush he did last year, but he does all the other crap work your OLBs have to do. In base, they seem to be running something closer to a 4-3 under with Z standing up.

That leaves Preston to be the defacto 4-3 SAM. He'll mug the TE, drop into coverage, and generally take one for the team. I don't know if we have someone else on the roster than can adequately fill that role. And we haven't started talking about depth.

That's insightful, a 4-3 under hybrid that's pretty wonky.

Going through the Detroit coaches tape, they even ran it a couple of times with P. Smith standing up inside with Z. and Gary on the edges. It was working better against Detroit than what we've seen previously. Of the 10 or so snaps they ran it up through Sullivan's pick 6, Detroit didn't get much of anything.

As you say, P. Smith is the designated zone drop guy a few snaps per game.

At the end of the first half against Detroit we saw some of what I think most of us expected with all three on the field when Pettine talked about it last offseason. Gary and then Z at 3-tech with hand in the dirt with good success. Early in the second half there was a snap with Z. hand in the dirt over the OT with I think Gary outside his shoulder.

I didn't watch past the pick 6--a lot of prevent then garbage time is not particularly telling when it comes to the rubber meeting the road--close fought battles against better teams.

With Gary coming along, new plays at ILB/ILB-hybrid, I think a lot of this is still in the experimental stage.

As for Preston Smith and his $8 mil in cap savings in 2021, I think it's premature to be thinking about it. Suffice it so say, if Jones and Bakhtiari are to be retained a couple of things have to give somewhere. And I don't know if anybody has noticed, but Linsley is playing quite well. To paraphrase Twain, the stories of his death were premature.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

While I am excited about Gary, I think its only fair to say the same thing some of us were saying to the "Gary is a bust crowd", let's see where he goes from here. 2 solid games does not make him an instant Pro Bowler or FHOF'er, but its a step in the right direction.

What was your first post when the Packers drafted Gary? I remember being on the road and hearing the pick on the radio thinking "WTF are they drafting an OLB for, they just signed the Smith Brothers". Then when I got home and did some research on Gary and heard the Gute presser on him, I was more excited and willing to wait.

My first post.....

For those down on the Gary pick, might want to be listening to the Gute Presser that is currently taking place. I will edit in a link, when its available.

The Packers absolutely love this guy and what they feel he is going to add to the defense. Of course I wouldn't expect him to say differently, but his rationale is much more convincing then most of the posts I have read here lambasting the pick.

 

[Mondio]

That's insightful, a 4-3 under hybrid that's pretty wonky.

Going through the Detroit coaches tape, they even ran it a couple of times with P. Smith standing up inside with Z. and Gary on the edges. It was working better against Detroit than what we've seen previously. Of the 10 or so snaps they ran it up through Sullivan's pick 6, Detroit didn't get much of anything.

As you say, P. Smith is the designated zone drop guy a few snaps per game.

At the end of the first half against Detroit we saw some of what I think most of us expected with all three on the field when Pettine talked about it last offseason. Gary and then Z at 3-tech with hand in the dirt with good success. Early in the second half there was a snap with Z. hand in the dirt over the OT with I think Gary outside his shoulder.

I didn't watch past the pick 6--a lot of prevent then garbage time is not particularly telling when it comes to the rubber meeting the road--close fought battles against better teams.

With Gary coming along, new plays at ILB/ILB-hybrid, I think a lot of this is still in the experimental stage.

As for Preston Smith and his $8 mil in cap savings in 2021, I think it's premature to be thinking about it. Suffice it so say, if Jones and Bakhtiari are to be retained a couple of things have to give somewhere. And I don't know if anybody has noticed, but Linsley is playing quite well. To paraphrase Twain, the stories of his death were premature.

Linsley has shut me up thru 2 games, that is for sure. He's playing really well.

 

[Mondio]

it is only 2 games, but you can see it's there for Gary. He's been explosive and he's shown power and he's made plays. What he becomes is certainly up to him and time, but it shouldn't be difficult to see "why" they made him a first round draft pick at this point.

 

[HardRightEdge]

If it was 21 personnel, I call it 21 personnel. If it was 22, I call it 22. If it was 12, I call it 12. So on and so forth.

What you say there about sounding like a running play is the point and it's why personnel groupings matter, even if you have guys moving around the formation in non-traditional ways.

If an offense is coming out in lots of 21, 22, 12, and 13, they're pushing the defense into more nickel and base. If you can do that and then split a RB or FB/HB out wide and have him make plays in the passing game, you're creating matchup advantages for yourself.

So going "5 wide" with Adams, Lazard, Deguara, Tonyan, and Jones is a lot different than running out five wide receivers, which would likely prompt the defense to play dime, or even dollar.

And if you come out in 21, 12, 22, 13, etc. and they anticipate you splitting guys out and play dime anyways, you're still in a personnel grouping that lends itself to running the ball. So you can still take advantage.

But people just need to keep straight in their minds the difference between formation and personnel grouping. 21 personnel just tells you who is out there, not where they are. 21 =/= i formation, necessarily. And these designations are anything but obsolete.

One of the pillars of this offense is finding players that can allow you to pass efficiently out of "running play" personnel groupings. Those players make it impossible for defenses to properly matchup unless they too have lots of versatile pieces. You make it so that they can't be right.

I agree with much of that but as you point out, since personnel groupings don't tell you where they line up it does make them obsolete. These grouping were created at a time when RBs always lined up in the backfield, TEs always lined up in-line. Further, 2x formations wsere HB/TB and FB, both running the ball. There is no such thing as 2x anymore except for a few teams that give a FB 20 or 30 carries per season. These positional designations led me into a debate over whether a FB is a RB when clearly that is not the case anymore.

Further, I'd point to Ervin as a prime example of using positional designations as stated on the roster sheet. For all intents and purposes, it should say "WR" for Ervin. How many of hs 42 snaps have been taken out of the backfield? One? Two?

So far this season, the Packers "TE" snap count is 146% with a 226% "WR" snap count. Those numbers don't quite get you to 11. Move Ervin to the WR count for 254% and you get something that makes. And that is comparable to LaFleur's 152% TE/FB and 245% WR with the 2018 Titans.

And this year is barely distinguishable than last year when the "TE" and "FB" snap count was 143% and "WR" at 256% including Ervin, though he did run the ball a couple of times in the playoffs.

The 2018 McCarthy Packers had "TE" and "FB" combined snap count of 129% and a 272% "WR" snap count. While the difference is quite meaningful it is not as dramatic as some would have it---swapping out a "WR" for a "TE" on about 17 or 18% of snaps which might be skewed upward by a high run mix against Detroit that we might not see against better competition or when trailing in the second half. There was a lot of late trailing in 2018.

Yes, there are more 7 man lines, or 6 or 7 with a fullback in Week 1 with Deguara in that role, a la the LaFleur Titans. But if all you looked at were those snap counts you wouldn't see that there is more spread in this Packer offense than in that Titans offense.

The talk of this not being a LaFleur offense, rather a LaFleur/Rodgers offense or simply a "Packers offense" isn't just for PR consumption. LaFluer's stated confidence in Rodgers having control of the field is also not a PR gesture. Rodgers is not Mariota. The Packers other "skill position" players have a quite different skill set mix that in Tennessee in 2018. It's a good thing LaFleur isn't trying to stick round pegs into some preconceived theoretical square holes.

 

[mradtke66]

That's insightful, a 4-3 under hybrid that's pretty wonky.

Heh, I don't think I'm that smart. A 4-3 Under is almost a 3-4. Shade the NT to a 1 technique, slide one 5T to 3T, have the weak OLB put his hand in the dirt, and just like that, your 3-4 is 4-3 under. Or a 3-4 w/ 4-3 personnel.

I was merely pointing out they seem to have been using more 4-3 concepts. Specifically the weak-side edge/olb has been the far more designated rusher and the strong-side has been a more-pure linebacker.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Linsley has shut me up thru 2 games, that is for sure. He's playing really well.

Maybe he's showing a little more contract year juice, maybe not having to play next Billy Turner helps, or maybe it's playing against some less than stellar D-Lines.

But he's always been a good player. I think some people overreacted to a couple of bad snaps last year over how many thousands over the years. And there is the Billy Turner factor vs. lack thereof, a guy who looked pretty bad pretty often in pass protection.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Heh, I don't think I'm that smart.

If you insist. It is a hybrid 4-3 under. The classic description of a 4-3 under doesn't have an OLB standing a yard or two off the line at a DT position. We used to see a similar concept in the Capers defense with Matthews, Peppers and Perry on the field or with Neal and Datone Jones mixed in. What's different here is it being used as a base defense substitution whereas Capers used it primarily on passing and tweener downs if memory serves.

It looked good in the Detroit game. Terrible against SF while MIN made some hay against it. At least it seems to be heading in the right direction. I'd like to see more of Gary with his hand in the dirt at 3-tech in nickel/dime. He whipped a guard pretty good in his one snap at that spot in a conventional nickel front against Detroit. Maybe more since I stopped reviewing after the pick 6.

 

[Mondio]

Maybe he's showing a little more contract year juice, maybe not having to play next Billy Turner helps, or maybe it's playing against some less than stellar D-Lines.

But he's always been a good player. I think some people overreacted to a couple of bad snaps last year over how many thousands over the years. And there is the Billy Turner factor vs. lack thereof, a guy who looked pretty bad pretty often in pass protection.

turner was definitely the weak link. flat footed and blown by on a blitz at least 3 times per game. i'm sure it didn't help Linsley. But just signed vs near end of contract and significant cap savings I thought Linsley would be a camp cut this year. I'm happy to eat my words, even more so if Turner doesn't need to play.

 

[PikeBadger]

Linsley has shut me up thru 2 games, that is for sure. He's playing really well.

No lie. His pff grade is stunning and aside from that, it is clear that though many of us thought he might get released or traded, the staff wanted him as the starting C and Patrick as a backup to him and the guard positions. The o-line may be able to play well without him next year but I’m glad he’s with us now especially since Taylor is gone for the year.

 

[PackerDNA]

Gary is really coming on. the best part is he still has a very high upside.

 

[Dblbogey]

Linsley has shut me up thru 2 games, that is for sure. He's playing really well.

Unfortunately, we'll lose Linsley next year. With Bakh, Jones, King, etc coming up, Linsley will be too expensive.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I never said love was a good pick. I still don't like it but what I said was a rookie wr wasn't likely to put up much for numbers on our team this year. Of the guys available when we picked I don't see one who would have been better than our number 4 and honestly our number 5 if Funchness hadn't opted out. Long term they could have been more valuable for sure just not that valuable this year unless we have injuries.

Claypool is a very interesting player though. Perfect landing spot in pittsburgh because they love to throw deep and he is a huge threat there. 84 yard td already this year

Claypool was available at the time the Packers drafted in the second round.

If Gary continues to improve would there be anyway Preston Smith becomes expendable? He is owed a lot of money and I am not sure how bad the cap hit would be.

The Packers would save $8 million in cap space for next season by moving on from Preston.

While I'm not in favor of it it's likely Gutekunst will have to make some unpopular decisions because of the cap declining.

There have been two games. Two! How in the blazes can you be confident? Give it a few years man lol.

Unfortunately I'm convinced Love won't ever develop into a franchise quarterback and it would have been much smarter to address current positions of need with this year's first round ouck.

 

[thequick12]

Unfortunately I'm convinced Love won't ever develop into a franchise quarterback and it would have been much smarter to address current positions of need with this year's first round ouck.

First claypool in the 2nd would of been my pick. The dudes an all around football player, even making plays on special teams... doesn't mean dillon might not be a player too. I just would of taken claypool...

As for Love, have you watched any of his tape?

He clearly has all the tools to do everything aaron rodgers does only hes bigger, stronger, faster. If he gets the luxury of the learning behind Rodgers for 3 or 4 years as Rodgers did Favre...and he really is as smart and driven as they say, I see no reason he doesn't become the 3rd in line

Well one reason, Rodgers might make sure they keep him and trade Love by playing too well to allow the packers to move on from him...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

First claypool in the 2nd would of been my pick. The dudes an all around football player, even making plays on special teams... doesn't mean dillon might not be a player too. I just would of taken claypool...

As for Love, have you watched any of his tape?

He clearly has all the tools to do everything aaron rodgers does only hes bigger, stronger, faster. If he gets the luxury of the learning behind Rodgers for 3 or 4 years as Rodgers did Favre...and he really is as smart and driven as they say, I see no reason he doesn't become the 3rd in line

Well one reason, Rodgers might make sure they keep him and trade Love by playing too well to allow the packers to move on from him...

Love has struggled with decision making in college, resulting in leading the entire FBS in interceptions last season while playing against inferior competition in the Mountain West conference.

Unfortunately it's close to impossible to teach a quarterback to make smart decisions.

 

[gopkrs]

Claypool was available at the time the Packers drafted in the second round.



The Packers would save $8 million in cap space for next season by moving on from Preston.

While I'm not in favor of it it's likely Gutekunst will have to make some unpopular decisions because of the cap declining.



Unfortunately I'm convinced Love won't ever develop into a franchise quarterback and it would have been much smarter to address current positions of need with this year's first round ouck.

Is it too early to have a mock draft?

 

[longtimefan]

How is this Gary kid?

 

[swhitset]

Unfortunately I'm convinced Love won't ever develop into a franchise quarterback and it would have been much smarter to address current positions of need with this year's first round ouck.

I completely agree with the second part of your statement. I...like many others would have much preferred to see a first round wide receiver or some other position of need that could have potentially helped this year. As to Love never developing into a franchise QB... I don’t see how you can possibly know that. The fact that he is currently behind Boyle, while seemingly disappointing, tells us very little about the future. There are just too many unknown facts... especially this year.

 

[Dantés]

I completely agree with the second part of your statement. I...like many others would have much preferred to see a first round wide receiver or some other position of need that could have potentially helped this year. As to Love never developing into a franchise QB... I don’t see how you can possibly know that. The fact that he is currently behind Boyle, while seemingly disappointing, tells us very little about the future. There are just too many unknown facts... especially this year.

Just like he was convinced that Gary wouldn't be a good player.

It's a pretty simple calculation here-- if PFF didn't like them, they won't be good.

 

[PikeBadger]

Claypool was available at the time the Packers drafted in the second round.



The Packers would save $8 million in cap space for next season by moving on from Preston.

While I'm not in favor of it it's likely Gutekunst will have to make some unpopular decisions because of the cap declining.



Unfortunately I'm convinced Love won't ever develop into a franchise quarterback and it would have been much smarter to address current positions of need with this year's first round ouck.

Lol, that’s a mighty quick assessment on Love. Glad you’re not our GM. Your the type that would have cut Adams after his 2nd season and would be a perpetual roster churner.

 

[thequick12]

Love has struggled with decision making in college, resulting in leading the entire FBS in interceptions last season while playing against inferior competition in the Mountain West conference.

Unfortunately it's close to impossible to teach a quarterback to make smart decisions.

Idk brett Favre made a lot of bad decisions and Rodgers learned not to make those bad decisions by watching Favre... perhaps love will learn in a similar manner by watching Rodgers

And I also think that blaming all those interceptions simply on bad decisions is a bit simplistic.

He didn't throw that many picks the year prior...and if he's as smart in general as the packers claim, then he should look a lot more like the guy who made good decisions the year prior... especially after 3/4 years behind a first ballot hall of famer

 

[Dantés]

Claypool was available at the time the Packers drafted in the second round.

???

Claypool was drafted at #49 and the Packers' 2nd round pick was #62.

 

[thequick12]

Lol, that’s a mighty quick assessment on Love. Glad you’re not our GM. Your the type that would have cut Adams after his 2nd season and would be a perpetual roster churner.

Yeah a lot of people would have even though it was clear during his rookie off season that adams was going to develop into a star...I remember seeing a clip of rookie adams running a route on casey hayward. It was so clear just from that, that he had ability not a lot of others do

 

[Jerellh528]

I think people are upset because with Gary you’re seeing a little bit of flashes here and there and some raw tools to eventually get it done, but you expect that type of showing from a 3rd rounder or later. With the 12th overall pick you’re kind of looking for a guy who can immediately improve the team and compete towards being one of the better players at his position at least in his second season if not his rookie year... It’s not every year you get to pick 12th overall, probably we were hoping we could hit on that player who could be a cornerstone on defense for a long time, Gary looks okay but far from that player right now.