Official GB vs Pat's, studs n duds

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HardRightEdge

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Maybe I gave credit to the wrong position for the ability to draw PI calls ;)

https://nesn.com/2015/01/bill-belichick-patriots-wont-fall-into-joe-flaccos-pass-interference-trap/

Whether my "conjecture" has no merit to you, I have watched many games where announcers watch a reply and comment on things that the receiver did correctly to draw the PI call. Whether the receivers were doing it intentionally or not, is strictly conjecture. ;)
"Flacco chucks up a slightly under-thrown jump ball, causing opposing defensive backs to stop and careen into the Ravens receiver." That also may be unintentional. ;)

As I said, you would expect the receiver to try to shield the defender on an underthrown ball so he can catch it. If the defender has his back to the play and runs into him, then you'll get the call.

I have seen what appears to be the QB throwing the ball to receiver being held, which would then become a PI. Rodgers appears to do that on occasion. Sometimes the QB does not get the call.

I've heard many an announcer say, "the receiver drew the PI call". I cannot recall one saying he did it intentionally. Maybe Collinsworth has. He's prone to conjecture. ;)
 
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Mondio

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It's part of the game, it's like giving a head fake and getting a defender to jump in basketball and then jumping into them.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I've heard many an announcer say, "the receiver drew the PI call". I cannot recall one saying he did it intentionally. Maybe Collinsworth has. He's prone to conjecture. ;)

You may be right, but logically I can't help but think a receiver is going to do whatever he can to either catch the ball, stop the defender from intercepting it or try and draw a PI call. Not much different than a player over reacting on a hit, trying to garner an unnecessary roughing penalty.

I will ask Greg Jennings when I have lunch with him and his sister. Guessing his answer will be that Rodgers and MM didn't allow him to do it. ;)
 

swhitset

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They definitely do things to draw penalties. It seems this year they aren't calling it as often, and for that I'm very grateful. Even if it means Kendricks gets his arms hacked down before the ball gets there, but part of that is his fault. Go up and get the ball. Attack it. It's your's, go get it. He didn't, IMO he shouldn't get any call. I'm much happier watching a league that allows some semblance of defense to be played in the secondary with all the hand checking and pushing they allowed the offensive players to get away with over the years.
Agreed... My original post that sparked this was more about my frustration with Kendricks for not getting his arms up. He had position and it was a well thrown ball. My point was that he would have had a much better chance of catching it, and that the defender would most likely have had to interfere if he wanted to prevent it based on the positions of their bodies and the ball. With his arms up, attacking the high point... if any interference did occurr, it would have been much easier to see, and Kendricks would have had a better chance at catching it either way.
 

Mondio

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Agreed... My original post that sparked this was more about my frustration with Kendricks for not getting his arms up. He had position and it was a well thrown ball. My point was that he would have had a much better chance of catching it, and that the defender would most likely had to interfere if he wanted to prevent it based on the positions of their bodies and the ball. With his arms up, attacking the high point... if any interference did occurr, it would have been much easier to see, and Kendricks would have had a better chance at catching it either way.
he should have, he didn't go after the ball, he waited for it to drop in. Go after it, get it.
 
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HardRightEdge

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You may be right, but logically I can't help but think a receiver is going to do whatever he can to either catch the ball, stop the defender from intercepting it or try and draw a PI call. Not much different than a player over reacting on a hit, trying to garner an unnecessary roughing penalty.
Or a defensive lineman flopping. Offensive linemen grabbing fabric at the shoulder pads is permissable by officiating practice so long as the defender is under control. "There's holding on every play". True, but there is permissable holding and the other kind. The flop is intended to create the illusion of a change of direction, a release from control, with the lineman still having that chunk of jersey. It's intended to look like a legit win and hold where the defender has beaten the O-Lineman who holds on for dear life (or more rightly his QB's or running back's).

Getting back to receivers, trying to draw a PI call is divided focus on a catchable ball. If he sees it as not catchable, I suppose he might slow down or angle into the defender hoping the defender runs into him and he gets the call. I'll grant you that much, but if the ball is not catchable he's probably not going to get the call anyway. But if he does it is a product of a bad throw.

Consider the sideline back shoulder throw. The concept is the defender has his back to the throw and won't see where it is going whereas the receiver gets his head around and adjusts to the ball. A good throw is well timed and puts the ball where it is catchable. Equally important is the ball is put where the defender cannot catch it if he happens to sense what's coming and whips his head around. Catching it requires focus on the ball. Now, if it's a poor throw, too far inside, the receiver might have to flip toward the ball and stop short. The defender might run into him with a PI called. Again, it's still the product of a poor throw.

If you get those calls, great, but that's not the object of the play; instead it is a lucky product of a mistake.

If Flaco draws more of these calls than others perhaps it is because of (1) accuracy issues or (2) he just likes to throw a lot of jump balls where the defender has a legit shot at it, chuck and pray, where two out of four possible outcomes are negative, with one of the positives being a possible PI call or (3) every time he thinks he sees a hold he immediatly throws there, which would not always work out. If his guy has a step, and he underthrows on purpose instead of trying to him him in stride, how much sense would that make?
 
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SoonerPack

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You mean the running into the kicker penalty that was wrongly called roughing? Even Mike Pereira said it was BS.
What was the play called on the field? On 4th and a quarter of the field you don't come close to the K unless you have him DEAD TO RIGHTS. You don't put yourself in a position open to interpretation. So no, I mean the roughing the kicker call...
 

Pokerbrat2000

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What was the play called on the field? On 4th and a quarter of the field you don't come close to the K unless you have him DEAD TO RIGHTS. You don't put yourself in a position open to interpretation. So no, I mean the roughing the kicker call...

Agreed and this is the difference between well coached and not so well coached teams. As you said, the situation was set up in a way that the absolute last thing you want to do is rough the kicker. This is two weeks in a row where Special teams players aren't doing as instructed....that is if they are being instructed in such a way that they are listening or understand.

I pointed out another blunder of either MM, Zook or Scott. There was absolutely no reason to snap and punt the ball at the end of the first half. The game and play clock were one second apart. For whatever reason, it was ignored and Scott punted the ball with 14 seconds on the clock and the Patriots having 3 time outs.

We will see what happens to MM but I am so done with Zook. The word "Special" should not be attached to the units he puts on the field, I have really not seen anything special come out of his units since he came to Green Bay.
 

rmontro

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Always hard to judge. AR who really had a solid game despite being on the run the entire game. Or Brady who was able to stick to a great game plan against a Swiss cheese defense. Only the final score matters. Remember Trent dilfer taking the bucs to the Super Bowl? Horrible qb numbers, but he was great at protecting the ball and managing the game.
It's different styles. Brady gets the ball out quickly, and Rodgers likes to run around and improvise. But come crunch time with the game on the line, Brady delivered (as usual), Rodgers did not. And you are surely not comparing Brady to Trent Dilfer?
 

Ken smith

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It's different styles. Brady gets the ball out quickly, and Rodgers likes to run around and improvise. But come crunch time with the game on the line, Brady delivered (as usual), Rodgers did not. And you are surely not comparing Brady to Trent Dilfer?
No, not comparing. Just saying there’s a lot of factors that go into reasons quarterbacks are good and win. It’s a team sport. Playing to your strengths and opponents weakness is the biggest part. Brady has had the perfect storm of components working for him for decades, and he’s been ridin’ The wave. If Brady and Rodgers switched teams and coaches... pretty certain you’d see nothing but a confused, smashed, panicked, Brady flop, and a crazy wild Rodgers romp to the Super Bowl.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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No, not comparing. Just saying there’s a lot of factors that go into reasons quarterbacks are good and win. It’s a team sport. Playing to your strengths and opponents weakness is the biggest part. Brady has had the perfect storm of components working for him for decades, and he’s been ridin’ The wave. If Brady and Rodgers switched teams and coaches... pretty certain you’d see nothing but a confused, smashed, panicked, Brady flop, and a crazy wild Rodgers romp to the Super Bowl.

Not sure if you are going for a "Rodgers is much better than Brady" or "The Patriots organization is a much better one than the Packers" or both?

I'm going to go after the second one and it kind of proves the first point too. A good example of the difference between the Patriots and the Packers organizations. What happened last year for the Packers and what happened in the 2008 season for the Patriots. Tom Brady goes down in the first quarter of the opening game, lost for the season. In trots Matt Cassell and guides the team to an 11-5 record. Cassell didn't have a that special of a season, but the Pats proved they didn't have to solely rely on their QB to be a really good team.

Rodgers doesn't play or doesn't play that well, the Packers are a 500 team at best.
 

rmontro

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No, not comparing. Just saying there’s a lot of factors that go into reasons quarterbacks are good and win. It’s a team sport. Playing to your strengths and opponents weakness is the biggest part. Brady has had the perfect storm of components working for him for decades, and he’s been ridin’ The wave. If Brady and Rodgers switched teams and coaches... pretty certain you’d see nothing but a confused, smashed, panicked, Brady flop, and a crazy wild Rodgers romp to the Super Bowl.
Oh, I completely agree with that. But as they say: If wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd have Christmas all year long.
 

BrokenArrow

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What was the play called on the field? On 4th and a quarter of the field you don't come close to the K unless you have him DEAD TO RIGHTS. You don't put yourself in a position open to interpretation. So no, I mean the roughing the kicker call...
Nonsense. You either rush the punter or you don't. If Tonyan thought he had a real shot at it he should go for it. Guys are taught how to minimize contact when going for blocks and that's exactly what RT did. You don't drop your effort to 70% because you're afraid of what the ref might do. You hold the ref accountable for his ineptitude. There was no "open to interpretation" BS here. Pereira said it wasn't even close.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Nonsense. You either rush the punter or you don't. If Tonyan thought he had a real shot at it he should go for it. Guys are taught how to minimize contact when going for blocks and that's exactly what RT did. You don't drop your effort to 70% because you're afraid of what the ref might do. You hold the ref accountable for his ineptitude. There was no "open to interpretation" BS here. Pereira said it wasn't even close.

SMH......Does your logic apply to returning kicks too? You leave that decision solely in the hands of the player, even if fumbling it away costs you a chance at winning the game? If Zook called for a full on rush of the punter on 4th and 21, then its Zooks job we should also be discussing.

Whether the roughing call was correct or not is a mute point. When the score is tied in the second half and you have the Patriots facing a fourth and 21, the very last thing you do is get anywhere near the punter.
 

906Fan

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I don’t know how people would want King cut after we just had years of House, Randall and Rollins at CB. He is a godsend compared to them.
 

swhitset

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Nonsense. You either rush the punter or you don't. If Tonyan thought he had a real shot at it he should go for it. Guys are taught how to minimize contact when going for blocks and that's exactly what RT did. You don't drop your effort to 70% because you're afraid of what the ref might do. You hold the ref accountable for his ineptitude. There was no "open to interpretation" BS here. Pereira said it wasn't even close.
and i would say in that game with a 4th and 21... you don’t.
 

BrokenArrow

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and i would say in that game with a 4th and 21... you don’t.
Quit with the hindsight already. If he had blocked the punt I highly doubt you'd be on here talking about how he got lucky and shouldn't have even been trying.
 

swhitset

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Quit with the hindsight already. If he had blocked the punt I highly doubt you'd be on here talking about how he got lucky and shouldn't have even been trying.
We clearly don’t agree about how this situation should be handled, but you have no idea how i would react. Frankly as the ball was snapped, I was literally thinking “please just stay away from the punter”... then moments later I saw him go down just before the camera switched away. My personal belief is that when a defense stops the other offense... that is not the time to take a risk... you are getting the ball back... be happy with that. You are free to disagree with that, but please refrain from being so arrogant that you deem to tell me how I will react or think.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Of course I would. I have never in my life seen anyone complain about successfully blocking a punt.

Correct me if I am wrong, he didn't actually block the punt did he? No, instead his miscue gave the Patriots a first down.

I'm guessing you were the only one defending Brandon Bostick when he tried to field the onside kick against the Seahawks? He was just trying to make a football play, right?
 

BrokenArrow

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We clearly don’t agree about how this situation should be handled, but you have no idea how i would react. Frankly as the ball was snapped, I was literally thinking “please just stay away from the punter”... then moments later I saw him go down just before the camera switched away. My personal belief is that when a defense stops the other offense... that is not the time to take a risk... you are getting the ball back... be happy with that. You are free to disagree with that, but please refrain from being so arrogant that you deem to tell me how I will react or think.

So you don't think punts should be blocked. Gotcha. It goes against the wisdom of every coach in the game, but sure. Sounds good.
 

SoonerPack

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Nonsense. You either rush the punter or you don't. If Tonyan thought he had a real shot at it he should go for it. Guys are taught how to minimize contact when going for blocks and that's exactly what RT did. You don't drop your effort to 70% because you're afraid of what the ref might do. You hold the ref accountable for his ineptitude. There was no "open to interpretation" BS here. Pereira said it wasn't even close.
Come back from pixiedust land and join reality my friend. It was FOURTH AND 22!!!!!! He wasn't close to blocking the punt therefore he had no business coming in that hard. You say throw out the open to interpretation "BS." How? The call is subjective in nature hence interpretation. Until we get robots and lasers on the field "interpretation BS" will continue to play a significant role in the game. For Zook to not be in every guys ear saying "stay off the punter" is insanity. For you to defend it is laughable.
 
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Captain WIMM, you are a site treasure. I didn't even know there was an NFL penalties. Com.

Thanks, buddy. Actually JanisJubilee will disagree with your post but who cares about it???

I get your point. Btw... Brady was also 0 for 8 at one point. Always hard to judge.

Actually Brady didn't complete "only" six passes in a row but the announcers missed one of his completions in between.

Quit with the hindsight already. If he had blocked the punt I highly doubt you'd be on here talking about how he got lucky and shouldn't have even been trying.

Tonyan shouldn't have been called for roughing the kicker but it was stupid nevertheless even giving the refs a chance to call it that way.
 
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