Offensive Talent

[OldSchool101]

I am considering it, I think they will if they can. I think tonyan needs to see the field more. Even if he can't do it, Graham isn't doing it either and he's slower and less effective. He better be hurt, because if this is what he is, he's done.

I don't think anyone is really in trade mode yet as everyone is figuring out their rosters and seeing if evaluation is meeting the production and if not, why? I think week 6 or so teams may be more open to looking towards future and now teams will have a better feeling if their evaluations were correct, or if they need to go get someone. But if some guys don't start stepping up, i'm all for going to get someone.

But while you were in port, who are you telling to go back to shore? Gary? Savage? Jenkins? or SMith? SMith or Amos?

Rodgers. J/k!

We released Daniels (likely to allow a current resign) but we now may need to put that towards a Receiver who’s contract aligns with the likes of Gary, Savage, Jenkins, or SMith, SMith or Amos as far as it’s term length. Someone’s teetering on the 53 that’s not as valuable as a #2 Receiver. As someone else said.. prioritize.

 

[Dantés]

Good stuff, but do they currently have those weapons on the team, to be able to operate in rhythm, with quick passes? Besides Adams, I don't see receivers on this team that get open quick. MVS and Allison are very similar to me, while they might be potentially good midfield and on, they have to get their first, be open and Rodgers has to still be standing. This is an area where they miss Cobb or a Cobb like player. I think we will see more of Adams lined up in the slot and maybe some more bunching of our WR's to run quick hitting screen type routes. I also think they need to stop lining Graham up in the LOS, he can't block and ends up just being slowed up trying to escape out to run a route. Tonyan is also going to have to play more IMO.

They have the weapons to do it a lot more than it's been done so far. Though it's also true that another weapon would help.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

No, it's to show you just because you do doesn't mean jack squat.

There's always ways to make things work, 30 million for cole beasly, wise? What did Tate get? we just got rid of injury prone WR, you want Crowder? Spending to the cap before the season starts comes with it's own pitfalls.

Let me ask you this and we can stop this back and forth. Did you or do you now, perceive a need to improve the Packers WR group?

 

[Mondio]

Let me ask you this and we can stop this back and forth. Did you or do you now, perceive a need to improve the Packers WR group?

it's starting to look that way. But then there are hiccups all along this offense. Just look at the passes out of the backfield week 1 to 2 and how that changed the few times they did it. Already looks better. They're still learning this offense and with confidence comes better play too. They tried some RPO last week and everyone was off. It takes time before we know what we have and this decision isn't made in a vacuum. I think this team made about the best use of it's resources as one could reasonably expect and then some this offseason and what change it has put on the field.

But I answered your question, how about mine? 30 million for cole beasly, wise? What did Tate get? we just got rid of injury prone WR, you want Crowder?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

if some guys don't start stepping up, i'm all for going to get someone.

That is a possibility and a notion thrown out by a few posters, "wait and see and if it doesn't work out, do something before the trading deadline".

There are a number of pitfalls with that.

1. Did waiting cost you some games because you didn't have what you thought you had?
2. How long does it take for this new WR to get up to speed, ie when does he start contributing?
3. Maybe most importantly. Other teams are facing these same decisions due to injuries depleting their WR's or players not playing up to expectations. Have those teams beat you to all the good options?

So sure, let's sit back and see what happens and I hope it's all good and we need nothing. If we do, there may be more teams willing to unload players in trades, when their season is looking lost, but there will probably also be more teams competing for those players.

 

[greengold]

The Colts, Titans, and 49ers havent played the Bears and the Vikings either.
7. I wish learning and mastering a new offense was easy. Its not. Should get better each week, but by week 10, i dont think we will see much more improvement.

Funny how a few weeks ago posters here were all excited about our WR corps.

From my POV, i dont think AR is playing very well. I think he knows it as well. And when i say, he isnt playing well, i mean by his standard. He is still better than most, but is no longer at an elite level.

It occured to me while watching Mahommes playing that AR no longer seems to really zip it in there. 5 years ago he could really sling it on a rope into tight coverage. He could throw open a WR and the release was so quick no DB stood a chance.

Anyway, it is always difficult to look at someone who was so good with a critical eye. I am thinking he isnt trusting his arm either and is overly cautious. I was hoping his poor play last season was the result of friction with MM. Now im hoping its from lack of offensive familiarity and WR chemistry. Although they did very well in practice going up against our stellar DBs. On the other hand he makes several bad throws per game and misses seeing wide open guys several times as well. Thats points on the table.

Im just hoping for the best and AR picks it up. I dont think adding a new WR is going to improve this team much.

The thought occurred to me regarding Rodgers and ability to zip his throws like a few years ago. When you have bone breaks and surgeries, nothing really returns to “normal” nor can you completely start forgetting about that injury until after about a year has passed.

That could affect Rodgers’ mechanics. He’s working through all kinds of stuff. I agree Rodgers should be looking better soon and WR additions may prove completely unnecessary.

 

[Mondio]

That is a possibility and a notion thrown out by a few posters, "wait and see and if it doesn't work out, do something before the trading deadline".

There are a number of pitfalls with that.

1. Did waiting cost you some games because you didn't have what you thought you had?
2. How long does it take for this new WR to get up to speed, ie when does he start contributing?
3. Maybe most importantly. Other teams are facing these same decisions due to injuries depleting their WR's or players not playing up to expectations. Have those teams beat you to all the good options?

So sure, let's sit back and see what happens and I hope it's all good and we need nothing. If we do, there may be more teams willing to unload players in trades, when their season is looking lost, but there will probably also be more teams competing for those players.

there's pitfalls for everything. Look at all the people that wanted Mack last year. think of how differently we'd look and what it would have done for us last year? So they trade away some picks for someone who might help us, they don't, and now we don't have picks? pitfall.

all the reasons I listed earlier about the coach and the team are higher reasons for this offense not quite looking right yet, than WR imo. Players play better with confidence. I don't know how long it takes and I don't know that a new "proven" guy is any better either.

most of us thought this was a 2 season job to fix this team, i'm not in a hurry to trade away stuff when I already factored in next year in my plans and we're looking at a reportedly strong offensive draft.

 

[Mondio]

The thought occurred to me regarding Rodgers and ability to zip his throws like a few years ago. When you have bone breaks and surgeries, nothing really returns to “normal” nor can you completely start forgetting about that injury until after about a year has passed.

That could affect Rodgers’ mechanics. He’s working through all kinds of stuff. I agree Rodgers should be looking better soon and WR additions may prove completely unnecessary.

you know what else effects zip? Confidence. He has shown he has no problems zipping the ball when he knows someone is going to be there.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But I answered your question, how about mine? 30 million for cole beasly, wise? What did Tate get? we just got rid of injury prone WR, you want Crowder?

Again, a moot point if the Packers didn't see the need to upgrade, but yes, I would have tried to find a way to sign any of those 5 guys I mentioned, not just the 3 you whittled it down to. Danny Amendola or John Brown would have probably been my favorites out of the group. By the way, how is Crowder "injury prone"? He had an ankle injury that kept him out of 7 games.

Beasly: 4 years, $29 M

Tate: 4 years, $37.5 M

Crowder: 3 years, $28.5 M

Amendola: 1 year $4.5 M

John Brown: 3 year $27 M

 

[greengold]

you know what else effects zip? Confidence. He has shown he has no problems zipping the ball when he knows someone is going to be there.

True. Most of the problems I’ve noticed seem to have more to do with timing, check options and scheme - along with a heavy dose of other players learning, making their mistakes as well. A lot of moving parts here, and it really is complicated. Time is required before every player gets on the same page.

 

[Do7]

Again, a moot point if the Packers didn't see the need to upgrade, but yes, I would have tried to find a way to sign any of those 5 guys I mentioned, not just the 3 you whittled it down to. Danny Amendola or John Brown would have probably been my favorites out of the group. By the way, how is Crowder "injury prone"? He had an ankle injury that kept him out of 7 games.

Beasly: 4 years, $29 M

Tate: 4 years, $37.5 M

Crowder: 3 years, $28.5 M

Amendola: 1 year $4.5 M

John Brown: 3 year $27 M

I don't see any of those guys as upgrades over Cobb, especially when you factor in he had good chemistry with Rodgers.

Also if i'm not mistaken, each of those receivers have injury history as well.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

all the reasons I listed earlier about the coach and the team are higher reasons for this offense not quite looking right yet

Was this the same way you felt about our defense last year, more specifically the DB's and OLB's? New DC, new system, they just need time to jell.

I'm just curious, what about MVS, Allison, Kumerow, Shepherd, Lazard and Davis gives you so much confidence to say its the coach/system, not the players?

 

[tynimiller]

I'm not sure if anyone has nabbed him yet but noticed Alize Mack was released, I am high on his potential and thought with all our TE injuries wondered if Gute gave him a glance. Rumor was our scouting staff liked him in April

 

[mradtke66]

Again with the Graham reference? Is that going to make you never want to sign another FA?

AFAIK, he's isn't arguing against signing a free agent. Merely pointing out that signing a vet isn't a cure all. It can easily blow up in your face as Graham did.

The crux of his argument is what are you willing to give up to get this better WR?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not sure if anyone has nabbed him yet but noticed Alize Mack was released, I am high on his potential and thought with all our TE injuries wondered if Gute gave him a glance. Rumor was our scouting staff liked him in April

The Steelers added him to their practice squad. That doesn't mean Gute can't sign him away though.

 

[greengold]

Was this the same way you felt about our defense last year, more specifically the DB's and OLB's? New DC, new system, they just need time to jell.

I'm just curious, what about MVS, Allison, Kumerow, Shepherd, Lazard and Davis gives you so much confidence to say its the coach/system, not the players?

I do know from listening to Martinez in a podcast early this TC that he felt so much better having the new concepts and knowledge of their own, and each others’ responsibilities after the full year in system.

He said that can be the difference between a play miss by 1 second, or a great play make, 1 second earlier. Recognition. Understanding how the puzzle pieces fit for multiple puzzles. No thinking, but reacting. With complete confidence.

Apparently the players themselves felt that way. That stuff just can’t be discounted IMO. Everyone on O will be thinking A LOT moving forward this year, as they have been games 1-3.

I look at next year possibly being a juggernaut for the Packers.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

AFAIK, he's isn't arguing against signing a free agent. Merely pointing out that signing a vet isn't a cure all. It can easily blow up in your face as Graham did.

The crux of his argument is what are you willing to give up to get this better WR?

Yes and I am fully aware of that and didn't counter with Amos, Smith, Smith and Turner as 4 examples of FA's that so far have panned out. We can debate about what can happen on either side of the coin, doesn't make us look any smarter, nor does using hind sight, just means we are aware of the fact that there are unknowns. Whether past FA signings have worked or not worked, shouldn't totally effect how you conduct business moving forward.

What was I willing to give up 6 months ago or what would I be willing to give up now? 6 Months ago, I would have gladly given up signing Turner (I think I called him Jenkins before) or made cuts earlier, Daniels, Taylor, etc. What would I give up now? If we could make a trade with a team for a decent #2 or #3 WR, a 4th or 5th round, as long as it wasn't just a one year rental.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I do know from listening to Martinez in a podcast early this TC that he felt so much better having the new concepts and knowledge of their own, and each others’ responsibilities after the full year in system.

He said that can be the difference between a play miss by 1 second, or a great play make, 1 second earlier. Recognition. Understanding how the puzzle pieces fit for multiple puzzles. No thinking, but reacting. With complete confidence.

That stuff just can’t be discounted IMO.

I look at next year possibly being a juggernaut for the Packers.

Again, I understand all of this, new system, new coach. People don't need to keep saying that. Plain and simple, I am questioning the talent level of the current group of receivers not named Adams. Kudos to those of you who think its just a matter of time and the offense will be high powered and great. I really want that, I just have my doubts that its going to happen anytime soon with the current group of receivers.

 

[greengold]

I guess, for me, Gutekunst has earned my trust with this and all other situations moving forward. Really. The dude never stops working to better his/our team.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't see any of those guys as upgrades over Cobb, especially when you factor in he had good chemistry with Rodgers.

Also if i'm not mistaken, each of those receivers have injury history as well.

Kind of a funny post when you say none of them are better than Cobb and then toss in "each of those receivers have an injury history as well". Every player has an "injury history", go dig up the stats and tell me how each of those players gives you enough pause to mention it.

But part of the post is actually enlightening to me. Cobb, settled for $5 M with the Cowboys, yet the Packers apparently didn't blink an eye letting him go. So maybe it was purely based on his injury history, but it also tells me that possibly Gute felt they were set at WR and keeping Cobb around wasn't necessary.

 

[RRyder]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...s-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard

I'm seriously calling BS on Turner being #1 and Taylor #3. But I guess even if they get pushed back and the pocket collapes because of it then it still goes as winning the play in ESPN's book because the block was still engaged

 

[Mondio]

Was this the same way you felt about our defense last year, more specifically the DB's and OLB's? New DC, new system, they just need time to jell.

I'm just curious, what about MVS, Allison, Kumerow, Shepherd, Lazard and Davis gives you so much confidence to say its the coach/system, not the players?

yes they needed time to jell as a defense. It's a major reason why I wanted to keep Pettine for year 2. and after year 1 it became apparent that Matthews wasn't the player he used to be and Perry could never ever be relied upon again. They likely weren't interested in bringing back Cobb as he's been breaking down for us and they saw it first hand for the past couple seasons. they probably figured he wouldn't be that available so what's the point?

They're better this year for 2 reasons, better players after a year of evaluation and roster change and better players because they have a better understanding. I think Pettine as even said it will be 3 years before he gets all his stuff in.

I don't know if it's the players or the system nobody can possibly know right now. What I do know? They don't know the system. it is NOT running smoothly and it's not just because they aren't scoring a ton of points. the passes out of the backfield have gotten better every week, you can see the growth as the confidence is gained and they run the plays. the running game still needs improving, but is getting better. they tried some RPO's and they looked like **** from the lineman to the intended target and the QB. It's clear they don't have this stuff down yet and I don't know why people think they should. It takes time, more time than they've had and I don't care who your QB is.

Knowing that, I know i'm not going to say another WR definitely makes this team better. Can toss around names all day long, they're just names and nobody has any idea how they're going to fit in here or perform. as far as i'm concerned MVS has as much potential as any of them. I'm disappointed he's not making contested catches, and if he can't, he's no better than an occassional deep threat and #3 receiver. If he does? Watch out because physically? He's 2 tiers above anybody else we'd have gotten in FA.

Allison showed growth and appeared to be really coming along. He's been disappointing so far this season. what else is there to say? But you knew he'd be that in April? I know lots of people loved Lazard, but he showed me he had a ton to learn about playing WR in the NFL and routes and concepts within the offense.

All Kumrow had done is run routes and catch passes when he's in there. if these other guys don't start running with the offense, i'm all for putting him out there and seeing what he can do against starting NFL defenses.

It's getting to the **** or get off the pot point, but even then, they may struggle all year long and not have it click until next year even on offense and may have nothing to do with the WR's at all. but that would be silly to think that is likely because they're all part of it and right now, they all are having problems. A new WR isn't going to fix the rest of it.

 

[Do7]

Kind of a funny post when you say none of them are better than Cobb and then toss in "each of those receivers have an injury history as well". Every player has an "injury history", go dig up the stats and tell me how each of those players gives you enough pause to mention it.

But part of the post is actually enlightening to me. Cobb, settled for $5 M with the Cowboys, yet the Packers apparently didn't blink an eye letting him go. So maybe it was purely based on his injury history, but it also tells me that possibly Gute felt they were set at WR and keeping Cobb around wasn't necessary.

What injury history prior to last year is my question. The last time Cobb went down with an injury to my recollection was in the playoff game against The Cardinals back in 2014 I believe. I simply said I don't see them as upgrades over Cobb. Over the years Cobb, for the sake of argument 2016-2018 with the exception of Golden Tate, Cobb was better if we're combining those seasons. Then as I mentioned before you have to factor in his chemistry with Rodgers which is something that is important here.

The other major injury I can think of regarding Cobb is when he went down to Matt Elam got him at the legs.

So explain to me how those options are better than Cobb, I mentioned injury prone because I figured you were going to bring that up in regards to Cobb, so I felt it was only appropriate. Like I said none of those guys, maybe arguably Tate, I would consider as upgrades over Cobb. That's really reaching.

 

[Half Empty]

Really? What WR do the 49ers have that's Superior to Adams? What RB that's better than Jones? Same thing for the Colts. And are you honestly trying to say that the Titans, the TITANS, have better receivers and running backs than the Packers?

Interesting. Based on 'what have you done for me lately?', i.e., this season, and taking yards as the measuring stick, Adams, at #30 in the league has the most of the four teams. Running back, however, has Jones at #16 (with the lowest YPC) and the 49er's Breida at #9, the Colts' Mack at #3, and the Titans' Henry at #11.

I completely understand that the above is one of a hundred ways to evaluate, but it did seem surprising in many areas.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

So explain to me how those options are better than Cobb, I mentioned injury prone because I figured you were going to bring that up in regards to Cobb, so I felt it was only appropriate. Like I said none of those guys, maybe arguably Tate, I would consider as upgrades over Cobb. That's really reaching.

Actually, what is really a reach is you saying that they all have injury histories, to seemingly try and make it sound like they would have been bad options. Check their injury histories, I did.

I never said they were better or worse players than Cobb, the Packers didn't attempt to resign Cobb, so your point is moot. 2 posters said the options in Free Agency were very slim and asked me what WR's I would have considered signing in Free Agency, I gave them a list of 5.

Cobb missed at least 23 full games in 8 seasons and also played many injured or got knocked out of some he was credited as playing in. I hated to see Cobb go, but I understand his label of injury prone and why the Packers decided to move on. I don't see quite that level with all 5 guys you said also have an injury history.

All that said, I probably would have been fine with Cobb at $5 M/year, but I actually thought Gute was going to find a better option, he didn't IMO.