Offensive Talent

[Mondio]

Not really sure what point you are trying to make TBH. Signing a FA TE, that has played like crap should prevent Gute from ever trying to sign another FA TE/Receiver? Or Graham would be great if coaching and scheme were better? Or if Graham played better, the WR's not named Adams would suddenly be getting open, catching balls and getting more YAC?
I will add to this list, maybe Graham is better with better WR's around him?

There is only one thing that will convince me that the Packers are not currently playing with a group of WR's, that besides Adams, lack talent and that will be watching them consistently play better. Until then, you can keep pointing to other reasons for a lack of production on offense with #12 as the QB, but I'm not going to buy it. All I have to do is picture how good this offense would be, if they had the same receiving corp as at least 1/2 the teams in the NFL have.

what's the point? Signing "proven vets" doesn't always work for a lot of reasons. You don't think there are open receivers at times? Not this excuse again. These guys are learning an offense, you don't know what is out there that is a poor player or poor execution yet.

Who was a FA WR you wanted this year? Cobb? Maybe Golden Tate, but he got decent coin too I think and am very thankful the youth movement was stalled for signing a guy on near the end. Trades are still an option and one thing i'm certain of, this staff is evaluating our roster and others as evidenced by all the moves they've made and getting something for nothing and other roster moves. They clearly are not complacent at all. and they'll have others evaluated as being someone that can help or not and if these start to show they are the reason the plays aren't working and not just the learning curve i'm confident they'll go and get someone if they can.

This staff is not complacent or delusional. anyone expecting the offense to be moving well after 4 weeks with a 1st time headcoach was hoping for a rarity in this league.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

He said Offensive complacency. Absolutely.
Actually that’s being far too delicate.

I disagree. You have to prioritize things. The defense has obviously been in far worse shape than the offense for years. So Gute focused on fixing the defense. I wouldn't say it's complacent to prioritize things.

 

[Mondio]

He said Offensive complacency. Absolutely and then some. Actually that’s being far too delicate, I’d just say “largely ignored”.

so your'e of the opinion it would have been better to invest in Cobb, Tate and make a trade for antonio brown than sign 2 starting OLB's, get 2 starting safeties, 2 starting offensive guards etc?

You really and honestly think this front office doesn't know what it's doing? and is ignoring the offense?

 

[Mondio]

they'll never have this O down pat because it's constantly changing. they're not running MLF's O yet. it's a cluster F. rodgers is going to have to come to a realization and until that happens nothing's going to change.

the worst plays we ran last week were all "scheme" that worked for ****. Lineman running down field, completely covered and zero other options etc. There's a lot holding this offense back, your hate for Rodgers is strong

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I would disagree with that and it feels like just another excuse. While I agree that the defense definitely needed improving, that doesn't mean the Packers didn't have the resources to improve the offense at the same time. How much cap space do they currently have? How many future picks do they have that can be used in trades? Basically, there are moves that could have been made and still could be made, to improve a receiving group that I frankly feel Gute and the Packers were overly optimistic on and thus stood pat. Drafting Sternberger in the 3rd was the only thing that was attempted this past off season and that was more with an eye on 2020 and Graham being gone.

Graham was a mistake, most said it when he was signed and they've been proven right.

However, you just blankly state that the Packers could have done more for the offense but that's not really fair. It's easy to say those things without actually figuring out a way to do it. The Packers spent a LOT of money in free agency on defense and, without checking free agent signings last year, I can't think of one that would have significantly improved the team without vastly overpaying (I liked Cole Beasley but not for what he signed for). As for trades, again, it's easy to say the Packers should trade for someone but that doesn't mean they actually CAN trade for someone. Teams have to prioritize needs. I don't think they got complacent about the offense; I think they wanted to fix a defense that lacked talent, relied on having very good offensive talent already on the team (though nonexistent depth), and hired a coach based solely on being an offensive guru (important to remember that mlf was basically thought to be an improvement for the offense).

 

[gbgary]

the worst plays we ran last week were all "scheme" that worked for ****. Lineman running down field, completely covered and zero other options etc. There's a lot holding this offense back, your hate for Rodgers is strong

lol...i don't hate rodgers! no one here is satisfied with the O and i'm sure it's the same at 1265. the old O didn't/doesn't work. the WIP O doesn't either.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

This staff is not complacent or delusional. anyone expecting the offense to be moving well after 4 weeks with a 1st time headcoach was hoping for a rarity in this league.

Well that removes me from the discussion, I never expected the offense to be moving well, due to the receiving group, not just the 1st time head coach. The coach isn't on the field running routes and catching the ball. You can argue all you want that this offense is slow to get out of the gate because of the coach and the new offense, but this isn't a new problem for the Packers. How many times in the past did we see a once great offense struggle when 1-2 of their top WR's went down with injuries? Today, I am looking at a Packer offense, that to me has one great WR, the rest are nothing but potential hopefuls.

I'm done talking about the overall talent or lack of, in regards to our receiving group and how that effects the offense. I will sit back and let the Packers prove me wrong and I really truly want to be wrong with this.

 

[OldSchool101]

Cmon we’re all being critical of this O because we love this team and see it’s massive potential this season.
That said, let’s not be an Abe Lincoln vs. “Little Mac” repeater.
Complacency is a disease in sports or otherwise. When you have your opponent on their heals you finish it or you get a Russell Wilson who will.

I think it’s very likely GB is looking to work a trade deal Or surprise us with O weapon type signing.

 

[Mondio]

Well that removes me from the discussion, I never expected the offense to be moving well, due to the receiving group, not just the 1st time head coach. The coach isn't on the field running routes and catching the ball. You can argue all you want that this offense is slow to get out of the gate because of the coach and the new offense, but this isn't a new problem for the Packers. How many times in the past did we see a once great offense struggle when 1-2 of their top WR's went down with injuries? Today, I am looking at a Packer offense, that to me has one great WR, the rest are nothing but potential hopefuls.

I'm done talking about the overall talent or lack of, in regards to our receiving group and how that effects the offense. I will sit back and let the Packers prove me wrong and I really truly want to be wrong with this.

i'm not arguing that's why, but until people have confidence in what you're doing, you can't say if it's the players or the plays that's holding it back. You don't know what they are yet. I am disappointed the EQ never got to start this season and that MVS hasn't shown the ability to make a big catch. I don't like that Tonyan doesn't seem to get much for opportunities and Graham is still out there doing nothing. Allison looks like **** to start the season as opposed to how he looked last season.

They clearly have things that need to get figured out, BUT, who don't they draft this year to get a WR? Savage? Gary? a starting Guard? no Sternberger? the rest would be drafting where we did last year.

who in FA? who's the big one we sign and make the OLB's and safety we got, at least one of them less of a likelihood of being here, that makes this offense better, but doesn't have a negative effect on this very good defense we're seeing?

Every team struggles when their playmakers go down. For Cripes sakes, the Rams scored a whopping 20 points against a completely back up secondary from the browns. Let's talk about offensive struggles LOL

It's the first month of the season, nobody has it figured out yet. As opposed to what others have done against the defenses we've faced, GB seems to be doing pretty well compared to teams facing the same D.

 

[AmishMafia]

As I've pointed out, the Colts, Titans, and 49ers have all scored more points than the Packers and have lesser offensive talent. Yes, better players would help (that's true on offense and defense) but the issue for this team is more the gameplan and execution than talent. Go look at points scored this season and you will see plenty of teams ahead of the Packers that all have less offensive talent than the Packers. The primary issue is NOT lack of talent.

The Colts, Titans, and 49ers havent played the Bears and the Vikings either.

How many games before it becomes an issue with talent rather than still learning the scheme? Not saying things one way or another, or that it's time to panic. But sooner or later things don't click, then you got to look for other issues.

7. I wish learning and mastering a new offense was easy. Its not. Should get better each week, but by week 10, i dont think we will see much more improvement.

Funny how a few weeks ago posters here were all excited about our WR corps.

From my POV, i dont think AR is playing very well. I think he knows it as well. And when i say, he isnt playing well, i mean by his standard. He is still better than most, but is no longer at an elite level.

It occured to me while watching Mahommes playing that AR no longer seems to really zip it in there. 5 years ago he could really sling it on a rope into tight coverage. He could throw open a WR and the release was so quick no DB stood a chance.

Anyway, it is always difficult to look at someone who was so good with a critical eye. I am thinking he isnt trusting his arm either and is overly cautious. I was hoping his poor play last season was the result of friction with MM. Now im hoping its from lack of offensive familiarity and WR chemistry. Although they did very well in practice going up against our stellar DBs. On the other hand he makes several bad throws per game and misses seeing wide open guys several times as well. Thats points on the table.

Im just hoping for the best and AR picks it up. I dont think adding a new WR is going to improve this team much.

 

[OldSchool101]

Im just hoping for the best and AR picks it up. I dont think adding a new WR is going to improve this team much.

Not so much directly, but having 2 guys who each demand extra coverage makes the entire food chain more tasty down the line. If our slot receiver was our strength tomorrow, it’s my opinion that you’d be absolutely surprised and wished we had addressed it earlier.
Also, it would give Aaron another short range option which is what he’s missing in the TE group.

 

[Dantés]

Some more great stuff from Ben Fennell:

When Rodgers passes in under 2.5 seconds this year, he has a 79% completion rate and zero sacks.

When Rodgers passes after 2.5 seconds this year, he has a 48% completion rate and seven sacks.

I am not denying that the pass catching talent could be improved, and in fact I think these stats add support to the idea that what they need most is a weapon who is effective at uncovering early in the down, but I think the larger problem is that this offense isn't operating with rhythm.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

How is it not fair to say that the Packers could have done more to improve the WR group? While the FA WR's available weren't overly plentiful, there were quite a few available that in my mind improve the team. Trades also can be a wonderful way to improve your team.

While I understand people saying "what else was Gute suppose to do, he spent his *** on the defense and who else were they suppose to obtain to improve the receiving group". There are always ways, but first and most importantly, you have to see a need. I for one don't think the Packers and some posters, actually think that there was a need to improve the WR group. So all of this discussion is really moot, if a need was never perceived to exist. by the people making the decisions.

 

[Mondio]

How is it not fair to say that the Packers could have done more to improve the WR group? While the FA WR's available weren't overly plentiful, there were quite a few available that in my mind improve the team. Trades also can be a wonderful way to improve your team.

While I understand people saying "what else was Gute suppose to do, he spent his *** on the defense and who else were they suppose to obtain to improve the receiving group". There are always ways, but first and most importantly, you have to see a need. I for one don't think the Packers and some posters, actually think that there was a need to improve the WR group. So all of this discussion is really moot, if a need was never perceived to exist. by the people making the decisions.

of course they could have, and it would likely have come at an expense to the defense.

You said they were complacent. I disagree. nothing they've done thus far could be considered as such.

Retained defensive coach with a season to know his team and what it needs, they spent the majority of the resources there. It has obviously been paying dividends. Better to re-allocate those resources to the offensive side when had 3 young physically gifted WR's that had a season to develop and a new coach that doesn't quite know his offensive players yet and take another swing at it?

Sure they could have done more, they still can and likely will if someone worth getting is available and they determine these guys just aren't going to develop and get better. Or MFL decides he needs different types of players at certain positions.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I am not denying that the pass catching talent could be improved, and in fact I think these stats add support to the idea that what they need most is a weapon who is effective at uncovering early in the down, but I think the larger problem is that this offense isn't operating with rhythm.

Good stuff, but do they currently have those weapons on the team, to be able to operate in rhythm, with quick passes? Besides Adams, I don't see receivers on this team that get open quick. MVS and Allison are very similar to me, while they might be potentially good midfield and on, they have to get their first, be open and Rodgers has to still be standing. This is an area where they miss Cobb or a Cobb like player. I think we will see more of Adams lined up in the slot and maybe some more bunching of our WR's to run quick hitting screen type routes. I also think they need to stop lining Graham up in the LOS, he can't block and ends up just being slowed up trying to escape out to run a route. Tonyan is also going to have to play more IMO.

 

[OldSchool101]

I disagree. You have to prioritize things. The defense has obviously been in far worse shape than the offense for years. So Gute focused on fixing the defense. I wouldn't say it's complacent to prioritize things.

I’m very happy with what Gutey has done overall. You’re right he emphasized Defense. My guess is this was a 2 year plan and he intended in fixing the O attack next season. But while the field is tilting in our favor, while the wind is at our backs, let’s press on.
We’re good enough on D to make a SB push right now. Lets not wait until 2020

when had 3 young physically gifted WR's

True. I’m assuming by “young” you mean our trio of draftees?
How many are starting of those 3 on Thursday night? How many of those 3 are in our mid term objective? That’s more a statement

Nobodies criticizing the past. But things have changed there and changed recently and for worse. You have to adapt.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

You said they were complacent. I disagree. nothing they've done thus far could be considered as such.

I'm not going to go back and read everything I wrote on this subject, but if you didn't understand that when I said "complacent", I was only referring to how they acted in regards to the offense, than you were complacent in interpreting my posts .

I will say it again, I understand how that happened. You have fricking Aaron Rodgers as your QB, you have 2 years of him not playing or playing injured, as well as a new offense, so sitting back and thinking you just have to be patient for everything to jell is understandable. However, relying on the potential of the receiving corp that they started this season with, IMO was a big gamble. Maybe it will pay off, maybe it wont, we will see.

 

[Mondio]

I’m very happy with what Gutey has done overall. You’re right he emphasized Defense. My guess is this was a 2 year plan and he intended in fixing the O attack next season. But while the field is tilting in our favor, while the wind is at our backs, let’s press on.


True. I’m assuming by “young” you mean our trio of draftees?
How many are starting of those 3 on Thursday night? How many of those 3 are in our mid term objective? That’s more a statement

1 of them, the other couldn't catch, was determined he wasn't going to get better and the 3rd is on IR.

So, not knowing anything of the later 2 and them not being any help when April rolled around, who are you drafting instead of Gary, Savage, or Jenkins? Or what FA were you going after knowing it's going to decrease the probability of at least one of our signings that are starting OLB's, Guard, or Safety?

All I knew at that time, MVS showed some decent stuff, EQ looked like a talented rookie that needed more time and Moore looked great if he could learn to catch. Not a lot definitive was known yet. Jury is still out on 2 of them.

 

[Mondio]

I'm not going to go back and read everything I wrote on this subject, but if you didn't understand that when I said "complacent", I was only referring to how they acted in regards to the offense, than you were complacent in interpreting my posts .

I will say it again, I understand how that happened. You have fricking Aaron Rodgers as your QB, you have 2 years of him not playing or playing injured, as well as a new offense, so sitting back and thinking you just have to be patient for everything to jell is understandable. However, relying on the potential of the receiving corp that they started this season with, IMO was a big gamble. Maybe it will pay off, maybe it wont, we will see.

WHO do you sign in FA and who do you give up?

WHO do you draft in the place of Gary, Savage or Jenkins? WHO

You seem to think the answer was obvious in what they should do, or are you just saying they should do anything like sign a HOF TE?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

WHO do you sign in FA and who do you give up?

WHO do you draft in the place of Gary, Savage or Jenkins? WHO

You seem to think the answer was obvious in what they should do, or are you just saying they should do anything like sign a HOF TE?

Again with the Graham reference? Is that going to make you never want to sign another FA?

I never said drafting someone this year, would have helped this season.

As far as trades or FA that is Gutes job not mine. I would have looked at quite a few FA players: John Brown, Danny Amendola, Golden Tate, Cole Beasely, Jamison Crowder. Those are just FA's, as far as trades go, that is a wide open discussion and full of unknowns. How do you pay for them? Well first, I wouldn't have signed Jenkins if they couldn't have swung both or cut Lane Taylor. Also, given the Packers started the season with a decent amount of available Cap space, there were ways to make it work.

Again, I don't think Gute or the Packers saw the need or they he would have made it work, so saying they couldn't is kind of pointless and IMO just an excuse.

 

[OldSchool101]

1 of them, the other couldn't catch, was determined he wasn't going to get better and the 3rd is on IR.

So, not knowing anything of the later 2 and them not being any help when April rolled around, who are you drafting instead of Gary, Savage, or Jenkins? Or what FA were you going after knowing it's going to decrease the probability of at least one of our signings that are starting OLB's, Guard, or Safety?

All I knew at that time, MVS showed some decent stuff, EQ looked like a talented rookie that needed more time and Moore looked great if he could learn to catch. Not a lot definitive was known yet. Jury is still out on 2 of them.

Im somewhat in agreement there.
Let’s fast forward also. As you said, we largely relied on 1 receiver and some all around upside in camp. We had to designate resources towards D I’m fine with that.
But now we’re in the thick of it and we’ve got our 3rd rounder on IR, EQ on IR, Graham playing poorly, Adams tripled etc..
We’re relying on a largely inexperienced group to grasp this O in the next couple of weeks. Why not consider injecting a tenured, proven commodity to shore up the water pouring in while at Port? Why launch out to sea for 3 months wondering if we have the provisions when there’s already several known cases of scurvy on board? Let’s pony up and get a crate of Limes while we can.

 

[PackerDNA]

whoaaa, i'm not saying down pat, i'm saying they may actually start to look like a cohesive unit with a bit more consistency and fewer "WTF was that" moments. it will be a full season at least until they have it down pat.

I stand corrected.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Im somewhat in agreement there.
Let’s fast forward also. As you said, we largely relied on 1 receiver and some all around upside in camp. We had to designate resources towards D I’m fine with that.
But now we’re in the thick of it and we’ve got our 3rd rounder on IR, EQ on IR, Graham playing poorly, Adams tripled etc..
We’re relying on a largely inexperienced group to grasp this O in the next couple of weeks. Why not consider injecting a tenured, proven commodity to shore up the water pouring in while at Port? Why launch out to sea for 3 months wondering if we have the provisions when there’s already several known cases of scurvy on board? Let’s pony up and get a crate of Limes while we can.

Clever....now go walk the damn plank for questioning the Captain!

 

[Mondio]

Im somewhat in agreement there.
Let’s fast forward also. As you said, we largely relied on 1 receiver and some all around upside in camp. We had to designate resources towards D I’m fine with that.
But now we’re in the thick of it and we’ve got our 3rd rounder on IR, EQ on IR, Graham playing poorly, Adams tripled etc..
We’re relying on a largely inexperienced group to grasp this O in the next couple of weeks. Why not consider injecting a tenured, proven commodity to shore up the water pouring while at Port? Why launch out to sea for 3 months wondering if we have the provisions when there’s already several known cases of scurvy on board? Let’s get a crate of Limes while we can.

I am considering it, I think they will if they can. I think tonyan needs to see the field more. Even if he can't do it, Graham isn't doing it either and he's slower and less effective. He better be hurt, because if this is what he is, he's done.

I don't think anyone is really in trade mode yet as everyone is figuring out their rosters and seeing if evaluation is meeting the production and if not, why? I think week 6 or so teams may be more open to looking towards future and now teams will have a better feeling if their evaluations were correct, or if they need to go get someone. But if some guys don't start stepping up, i'm all for going to get someone.

But while you were in port, who are you telling to go back to shore? Gary? Savage? Jenkins? or SMith? SMith or Amos? and I wouldn't say we had known cases of scurvy, MVS and EQ both showed they could be a WR, and if Moore could catch, he could be another Adams with his sudden speed. Not quite setting out with known disease.

 

[Mondio]

Again with the Graham reference? Is that going to make you never want to sign another FA?

I never said drafting someone this year, would have helped this season.

As far as trades or FA that is Gutes job not mine. I would have looked at quite a few FA players: John Brown, Danny Amendola, Golden Tate, Cole Beasely, Jamison Crowder. Those are just FA's, as far as trades go, that is a wide open discussion and full of unknowns. How do you pay for them? Well first, I wouldn't have signed Jenkins if they couldn't have swung both or cut Lane Taylor. Also, given the Packers started the season with a decent amount of available Cap space, there were ways to make it work.

Again, I don't think Gute or the Packers saw the need or they he would have made it work, so saying they couldn't is kind of pointless and IMO just an excuse.

No, it's to show you just because you do doesn't mean jack squat.

There's always ways to make things work, 30 million for cole beasly, wise? What did Tate get? we just got rid of injury prone WR, you want Crowder? Spending to the cap before the season starts comes with it's own pitfalls.