Next QB?

[Pokerbrat2000]

Lets say we trade Rodgers for picks. We'd have to stink big time in 2020 to get near the top of the 2021 draft and a shot at good collegiate QB and pray he isn't the second coming of Mitch Trubisky.

I'm not advocating that we trade AR and really with the way his contract is structured, it would be cap suicide to do so in the next few years. However, if you did trade him to a team for a some #1 picks, what the Packers do in those season won't matter, it is what the team you traded with does that determines where the picks are. Obviously, using the Packers pick, packaged with the pick(s) you got in the Rodgers trade, might get you to the top of draft.

It isn't happening anytime soon, so really not worth a lot of effort to think about.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Finding decent vets to back up AR isn't easy because most teams hang onto serviceable veteran backups so they don't hit the open market very often and nobody is gonna trade for one. If Hill became available I'd for sure bring him in for a look see at least.

I would have to go back and look at the history of Free Agent QB's, but it seems to me that there is a pretty good revolving door of Vet QB's every year. Hell, some like Matt Moore retire and then come back. If the Packers want an experienced vet QB to back up Rodgers, there probably is always going to be one they can get, its just a matter of how much they are willing to pay.

 

[OldSchool101]

I’m just exhausted arguing for a better option as a backup. I lobby we don’t carry a backup anymore. Matter of fact. Let’s go no backups throughout and just push all our chips in.. like a Kamikaze mission.

 

[4zone]

I'm not advocating that we trade AR and really with the way his contract is structured, it would be cap suicide to do so in the next few years. However, if you did trade him to a team for a some #1 picks, what the Packers do in those season won't matter, it is what the team you traded with does that determines where the picks are. Obviously, using the Packers pick, packaged with the pick(s) you got in the Rodgers trade, might get you to the top of draft.

It isn't happening anytime soon, so really not worth a lot of effort to think about.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Not sure why there would be any cap hit, his contract goes with him. But not sure any team would trade much for him. Would need 2st and 2nd rounders for the next two year I should think. And if you're the Bungles, why would you want to?

 

[Pugger]

Do you think there's a reason he's put in for specific situations only and almost every play is a read option with 1 read to make for the pass or straight up run? I do, it's why they don't use him in every situation they required a back up. It takes a lot more to run an offense in every situation than it does to come in for a unique circumstance that plays to your strengths and unique talents to give you a chance at success. Heck, if you could take away the blitz against Hundley and all he had to do was throw to the outside, he'd probably be pretty good. BUt he can't read a blitz to save his life and he was usually high in the middle. It's why he's a back up.

Yes, Hill isn't going to beat out Brees. He was behind Bridgewater on the NO depth chart. But is Hill better than Boyle? I still say if he is released it wouldn't hurt to take a look.

 

[rmontro]

I’m just exhausted arguing for a better option as a backup. I lobby we don’t carry a backup anymore. Matter of fact. Let’s go no backups throughout and just push all our chips in.. like a Kamikaze mission.

Has there been any (relatively) recent cases of the Packers running out of quarterbacks, and a non-QB player coming in to play the position? I seem to recall a situation where there was at least the threat of this occurring. Like Cobb or the punter or somebody was up next to come in. Who is our current designated fourth string quarterback, in case of emergency?

Anyway, by all means if you can find a backup QB who's going to come in and slay, sign him up. Chances are I'm still not going to feel too comfortable about the idea of Rodgers getting hurt though.

 

[ARPackFan]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Not sure why there would be any cap hit, his contract goes with him. But not sure any team would trade much for him. Would need 2st and 2nd rounders for the next two year I should think. And if you're the Bungles, why would you want to?

The prorated bonus of his contract would still go against the Packers salary cap. The link below explains some of it.

If he was traded this year there would be a bit over $51M that would go against the 2020 cap. The reality is the Packers are tied to Rodgers through the 2020 season due to the cap. With a new coaching staff and new offense I think you have to get Aaron some help on offense and let 2020 play out. If the offense steps up and Rodgers plays at a higher level than 2019 then you have some more time to find the next QB. If things go south in 2020 then in 2021 he could be cut/traded after June 1 and the Packers would have about $15M dead money in 2021 and 2022.


https://overthecap.com/a-guide-to-the-nfl-salary-cap/

 

[OldSchool101]

Has there been any (relatively) recent cases of the Packers running out of quarterbacks, and a non-QB player coming in to play the position? I seem to recall a situation where there was at least the threat of this occurring. Like Cobb or the punter or somebody was up next to come in. Who is our current designated fourth string quarterback, in case of emergency?

Anyway, by all means if you can find a backup QB who's going to come in and slay, sign him up. Chances are I'm still not going to feel too comfortable about the idea of Rodgers getting hurt though.

I think that was the season Seneca Wallace came in as a backup to Rodgers and pulled his groin or whatever. Scott Tolzien was brought up from the practice squad the following week, but I don’t believe he was even active yet at the time Seneca pulled his groin. Thats about as thin as I can remember. We were working with a PS candidate as our starter. You know the rest of that story.
Coincidentally. Our former backup QB, Scott Tolzien, was recently hired by Coach McCarthy as his QB coaches Assistant for the Cowboys

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I’m just exhausted arguing for a better option as a backup. I lobby we don’t carry a backup anymore. Matter of fact. Let’s go no backups throughout and just push all our chips in.. like a Kamikaze mission.

Might as well also not resign Crosby, sign an UDFA Kicker and let him kick AND be the #2 QB. Imagine what the team could do with that $2-4M they save on the 2 positions.

 

[swhitset]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Not sure why there would be any cap hit, his contract goes with him. But not sure any team would trade much for him. Would need 2st and 2nd rounders for the next two year I should think. And if you're the Bungles, why would you want to?

incorrect.....

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

incorrect.....

I swear, between Madden and Fantasy Football, fans IQ's have been destroyed.

 

[OldSchool101]

Might as well also not resign Crosby, sign an UDFA Kicker and let him kick AND be the #2 QB. Imagine what the team could do with that $2-4M they save on the 2 positions.

Nice. If there’s any leftover $ I could probably still whip myself into condition and backup someone maybe possibly. Although there may be an age limit? Always the XFL

 

[Deleted member 6794]

There was a time when that was exagerated, but not more recently. Brady's cap numbers the last 5 years have been:

$14.0 mil
$13.8 mil
$14.0 mil
$22.0 mil
$22.5 mil

It is not as though there was a lot of deferred money rolled forward with some big signing bonus dead cap overhang at the end of the line. It was a more or less pay as you go approach, a low risk approach which had high value to the team at Brady's expense.

Well, Brady's current deal includes two years that automatically void on the last day of the 2019 league year adding another $13.5 million in dead money to it.

In general the assumption that he has taken less money for the Patriots to be able to stay competitive is wrong.

IMO, it’s not and furthermore, paying a #2 QB is a cost of doing business. Even on GB’s limited budget.

I would be in favor of at least bringing in competition for Boyle for the backup job but the team definitely shouldn't spend several millions a year on the position.

There's no guarantee a veteran outperforms a younger guy though. This was only Mahomes third year. The reigning MVP (Lamar Jackson) won it in only his second year.

Obviously those are special cases, but to some extent a veteran backup QB is just a proven failure. To some extent. And experience isn't everything. We could have kept Kizer, but we didn't.

Obviously it should be considered that both of the quarterbacks you mentioned were first round picks as well.

If I had a novice UDFA I felt had the skills to play QB but with no experience and a guy who had already proven he couldn’t hack leading a team why would I chose the guy in know can’t play?

The veterans mentioned as possible backups to Rodgers have proven to be able to win games in the NFL though. Something that Boyle hasn't been able to so far.

Might as well also not resign Crosby, sign an UDFA Kicker and let him kick AND be the #2 QB.

Finally you're on board with replacing Crosby with a cheaper option

 

[Mondio]

I would be in favor of at least bringing in competition for Boyle for the backup job but the team definitely shouldn't spend several millions a year on the position.


The veterans mentioned as possible backups to Rodgers have proven to be able to win games in the NFL though. Something that Boyle hasn't been able to so far.

They've all proven they aren't very reliable either and have proven they can lose games too, also something Boyle hasn't proven he can do either Unless you count not being able to come back from 30 down against the 9er's as a chance to prove anything.

I'm not saying Tim Boyle is the answer. There isn't a back up that's coming for 2 million that would make me feel comfortable at all until we get those positions stronger I mentioned posts ago. Get those going and any number of cheap options, including Boyle maybe, could be in a position to be successful.

The best kickers are going to cost 2-4 million and with QB's that gets you churned over losers. When you require a certain level from the QB position to be successful, let's say a level 8 because the margins are so minimal for mistakes and if they're made, they must be countered with a very big play. So it takes a special QB if you want to rely on anything more than dumb luck.

You have an unproven UDFA as your back up and just for the sake of argument, lets say he's a very low level 1 QB, worst of the worst in fact. he flat out sucks. But he's cheap.

you decide to ditch him and pay 3 million bucks for another guy that sucks less, but is only a level 4, still sucks and is not the mistake limiting big play when you need it QB. are we better for it? Sure he's better than the level 1, but are WE better for it?

To get past that suck level and get into the "he might really be able to play QB in this league" level 5's now you're looking at 5+ million per year and those are legitimate players we won't have at other positions that could be helping on a down to down, game to game basis. The difference between the better and the worse kickers in the league is the difference between signing a barely depth guy. BFD. The difference between the better and the worse QB's even "back up" quality QB's is much larger and we're talking legitimate starter money.

When those other positions are fixed, or at least mostly, and we can look at this team and say, we don't need a level 8 to be playing at QB to win, then sure, go get yourself a level 5 QB to have more confidence.

When you're still a team needing an 8 at QB, the 1 or the 4 doesn't really matter. Get one, don't get one. It doesn't really matter to me.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

When you're still a team needing an 8 at QB, the 1 or the 4 doesn't really matter. Get one, don't get one. It doesn't really matter to me.

Not wanting to rehash things again, but I think there is a big difference between trotting someone out like Matt Moore into a game short term than there is a Tim Boyle. I agree with you, I don't think either of those players, carry the current Packer team for very long. However, in a situation when Rodgers goes down short term, whether it is for a quarter, a half or even a game, give me the "experienced, has seen and felt the pressure of live NFL games before QB", over a raw, unknown UDFA QB. I don't care that the Vet QB is no longer starting quality, what I care about is his past experience and that he isn't running out there wide eyed and nervous.

Had Rodgers gone down mid December this past season and Favre was in good enough football shape to play, I would have much rather seen him on the field than Tim Boyle.

 

[Mondio]

Even TJ Rubley was drafted and started half a season and had more TD's than INT's before becoming our back up. They're back ups for a reason, wide eyed or not, they're still back ups.

I expect competition for boyle again. as it stood heading into the year they had retained him heading into TC because they obviously saw something to work with, they had their starter, they had a 2nd round draft pick and another rookie. They picked the guy they had the most comfort with moving forward.

I'm not opposed to bringing in other QB's and letting the best man win. But right now with this team, they're going to be less expensive options and I think rightfully so all things considered. that being said, with the talent level we're talking about, there might be a decent chance Boyle is better than a lot of those options and earns it over them too.

 

[rmontro]

there might be a decent chance Boyle is better than a lot of those options and earns it over them too.

If nothing else, he has a head start on knowing the system.

I mean I'm not saying Boyle should be the backup, but obviously someone on the professional level thought he should be, for this past season at least.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Even TJ Rubley was drafted and started half a season and had more TD's than INT's before becoming our back up. They're back ups for a reason, wide eyed or not, they're still back ups.

"Drafted" *chuckles* 9th round. Also, he was never our #2. He was the #3 behind Favre and Detmer.

*cringes when he hears the name TJ Rubley* That is a game and a play that I will never forget! Ranks right up there with Brandon Bostick's brain fart during the onside kick in the NFCCG in Seattle. But a perfect example, that you bring up, as to the type of players I would want to avoid coming in for Rodgers.

I think you are trying to include guys like Rubley and Hundley into the category of "Veteran players worthy of being a #2". Neither were guys that ever won a starting job in the NFL or that had past success in the NFL when they did play. They just happen to get limited starts/playing time due to injuries and being the next man up. I would deem those guys as much, if not more of a risk as the Tim Boyles of the world. At least with Boyle, you don't know what you are going to get, it actually could be good. However, that uncertainty is exactly why he should be your #3 on a team that is considered to be good enough to be a Super Bowl contender.

The Eagles signing Nick Foles to back up Carson Wentz in 2017, is a picture perfect example of what signing the right #2 QB can do for a team.

Do the Packers have the funds to pay a Foles type $5.5M/year? Probably, but it might **** a few people off.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If nothing else, he has a head start on knowing the system.

I mean I'm not saying Boyle should be the backup, but obviously someone on the professional level thought he should be, for this past season at least.

Unfortunately, we saw what can happen with Betty Hundley, a guy that should have known the system after 2+ years in it and was even a 5th round pick. Is there another Tom Brady out there, that makes it into the 6th round or later? Probably, but guys like Boyle go undrafted for a lot of different reasons, with the common theme of "teams don't see them as having much of a future in the NFL". I hope Boyle has made that big of a jump from the draft to now, but as a fan, I haven't seen it or read about it.

 

[4zone]

incorrect.....

Switch part???

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Switch part???

This part.....

Not sure why there would be any cap hit, his contract goes with him.

When a player is cut or traded, the team is not suddenly released from obligations created when that contract was signed. More specifically, guaranteed money and bonuses that have been paid out, but deferred for cap purposes. Rodgers has that money in his pocket already, but the Packers stretched out the cap hit, to make the deal work (more cap friendly over time). Once the player is traded/cut, all that deferred money hits your cap. Post June, you can divided it over 2 years, but still, in the case of Rodgers, a hit the Packers could not afford this season or probably next.

 

[4zone]

Yes, Hill isn't going to beat out Brees. He was behind Bridgewater on the NO depth chart. But is Hill better than Boyle? I still say if he is released it wouldn't hurt to take a look.

Watch the Bears take a stab at him. He has at least a legit shot to replace Trip mid season if he doesn't get the job done.

 

[Mondio]

"Drafted" *chuckles* 9th round. Also, he was never our #2. He was the #3 behind Favre and Detmer.

*cringes when he hears the name TJ Rubley* That is a game and a play that I will never forget! Ranks right up there with Brandon Bostick's brain fart during the onside kick in the NFCCG in Seattle. But a perfect example, that you bring up, as to the type of players I would want to avoid coming in for Rodgers.

I think you are trying to include guys like Rubley and Hundley into the category of "Veteran players worthy of being a #2". Neither were guys that ever won a starting job in the NFL or that had past success in the NFL when they did play. They just happen to get limited starts/playing time due to injuries and being the next man up. I would deem those guys as much, if not more of a risk as the Tim Boyles of the world. At least with Boyle, you don't know what you are going to get, it actually could be good. However, that uncertainty is exactly why he should be your #3 on a team that is considered to be good enough to be a Super Bowl contender.

The Eagles signing Nick Foles to back up Carson Wentz in 2017, is a picture perfect example of what signing the right #2 QB can do for a team.

Do the Packers have the funds to pay a Foles type $5.5M/year? Probably, but it might **** a few people off.

So what is it? We need a high draft pick? Kizer, good enough? NO. I didn't bring up Hundley, someone brought up the AZ Cardinals as doing it right, HE was THEIR Backup this year. I brought up Rubley because he should be remembered by this franchise and he WAS a starter and he DID win and he DID have more TD's than INT's which can't say about some of these other guys and DID come with game experience.

So, what you're saying is we need a former high draft pick with game winning experience to come be our back up. that should be cheap LOL.

Nick Foles is an anomoly and he's not all that great either. They won a super bowl, great. They had a perfect run. But let's revisit shall we? he was a horrible QB in 2015, so much so Keenum replaced him and was costing the rams 6 million per. He went to KC after nobody would trade for him and even they did want to keep him around for a 2nd year. then was going to retire and the only person to come calling was Philly.

They had a great run, one for the storybooks. It worked out perfectly, but let's not act like it always has. He's been beat out a few times in his life. and he's made 60 million dollars in the pat 5 years. and another team is looking to dump him.

Back ups having games like Hundley are 1000x's more likely than that one 6 game stretch the lights shone on Nick Foles.

He might be available again this year too after he sucked royally and was outplayed by? a 6th round draft pick.

 

[OldSchool101]

This part.....



When a player is cut or traded, the team is not suddenly released from obligations created when that contract was signed. More specifically, guaranteed money and bonuses that have been paid out, but deferred for cap purposes. Rodgers has that money in his pocket already, but the Packers stretched out the cap hit, to make the deal work (more cap friendly over time). Once the player is traded/cut, all that deferred money hits your cap. Post June, you can divided it over 2 years, but still, in the case of Rodgers, a hit the Packers could not afford this season or probably next.

Interesting. I guess that makes sense any guaranteed would be accelerated.

 

[rmontro]

Unfortunately, we saw what can happen with Betty Hundley, a guy that should have known the system after 2+ years in it and was even a 5th round pick.

It boggles my mind that McCarthy appeared to have so much faith in him. I don't know if he was trying to give the kid confidence, if he was just trying to say the right things, or if he really thought he was going to perform at a higher level. Or maybe he was just hoping against hope.

Anyway, yeah Hundley was terrible, but we did manage to win a few games with him lol. Lost more. But there's no guarantee a veteran comes in and performs up to expectations either.