Mike Pettine's Defence

[Sunshinepacker]

You are correct, draft position doesn't guarantee anything on the field, but I think you would have to agree that there quite often is some correlation between where a player is picked in the draft and how well he does in the NFL?

Absolutely. But I don't think it's Pettine's fault that Jackson, Jones, Burk, Gary, and Montravious have not lived up to their draft positions.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Absolutely. But I don't think it's Pettine's fault that Jackson, Jones, Burk, Gary, and Montravious have not lived up to their draft positions.

Hard to tell until they go elsewhere. Jones seems to be playing better in Jacksonville. Jackson and Burks appear to be busts, at least in Green Bay. This was the same thing that some said about Dom Capers at times. I don't doubt that Pettine has a great defensive mind and he knows a lot about football, but I am starting to wonder if he gets the most of his players each and every game that he should be. While the Packers defense may not be THE most talented groups in the NFL, they have some pretty decent players and I hope to see them improve, with or without Pettine, you can't fire the whole defense.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Amos has been disappointing this year as well. I thought we were getting a bona fide Pro Bowler when Gute signed him in Free Agency. He isn't terrible, but for what he is being paid, he doesn't impress me too often.

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[gopkrs]

I don't know of any stats to confirm, but I would be absolutely shocked.

By the way, I've seen numerous people balk at Pettine using three many rushes in that game. He sent 5+ rushers a season high 13 times on Sunday. A willingness to send extra guys was not the problem. And really, the defense in general was not the main problem.

Rushing 5 can be worse than rushing 4 if they are not doing any better than 4. When he blitzes it's like Capers. They just get all jumbled up. He's gotta have a handle on the pulse of the game. Which I don't think he does. And rushing 3 is bad no matter what. imo

 

[gopkrs]

Having an OLB drop into the flat is not unusual in this defense. It's just that Fackrell did it last year and he's now gone.

Why do you need a real big man for that?

 

[gopkrs]

Hard to tell until they go elsewhere. Jones seems to be playing better in Jacksonville. Jackson and Burks appear to be busts, at least in Green Bay. This was the same thing that some said about Dom Capers at times. I don't doubt that Pettine has a great defensive mind and he knows a lot about football, but I am starting to wonder if he gets the most of his players each and every game that he should be. While the Packers defense may not be THE most talented groups in the NFL, they have some pretty decent players and I hope to see them improve, with or without Pettine, you can't fire the whole defense.

The game evolves. Defenses and offenses evolve. Capers and Pettine don't. And the real kicker is they don't do a good job of making in game adjustments. They don't realize the game is evolving in front of their eyes.

 

[Mavster]

You think the Packers have a lot more talent on defense than most teams? I'm not sure I agree with that.

Based on past history of the players on the roster, I'd say he has 5 guys who we should reasonably expect to be better than average (Clark, Smith, Smith, Alexander, and Amos) and three who should be playing at a pro bowl level (Clark, Z. Smith, and Alexander).

I believe the defense is at least average talent-wise. And they should be better with much investment they've poured into that unit the past few years.

I, however, do not believe this a Super Bowl caliber defense. The extremely passive scheme we've seen so far this year is infuriating to watch.

 

[Dantés]

Rushing 5 can be worse than rushing 4 if they are not doing any better than 4. When he blitzes it's like Capers. They just get all jumbled up. He's gotta have a handle on the pulse of the game. Which I don't think he does. And rushing 3 is bad no matter what. imo

Pettine has proven that he knows how to coach up the blitz. I think it’s off base to say otherwise. There’s a long history to the contrary.

There’s also a lot of evidence to the contrary that a three man rush is always a bad idea.

 

[Dantés]

Why do you need a real big man for that?

A scheme that’s largely predicated on being unpredictable can’t have their players do the same thing on every play.

Is it new to people that 34OLB’s drop sometimes?

 

[gopkrs]

A scheme that’s largely predicated on being unpredictable can’t have their players do the same thing on every play.

Is it new to people that 34OLB’s drop sometimes?

I'll never change my mind about the 3 man rush unless someone has 3 that can actually pressure. And Preston is not a linebacker no matter what some coach wants to designate him as. He should not be in coverage so much. You think that Pettine is great at calling blitzes? But not many are coming free against a decent O line. Just all my opinion. For me, anyone that sticks with a 3 man rush after all the times we have eaten it...is a dinosaur. It is a strategy of the past that for some reason remains a coach's security blanket.

 

[Dantés]

I'll never change my mind about the 3 man rush unless someone has 3 that can actually pressure. And Preston is not a linebacker no matter what some coach wants to designate him as. He should not be in coverage so much. You think that Pettine is great at calling blitzes? But not many are coming free against a decent O line. Just all my opinion. For me, anyone that sticks with a 3 man rush after all the times we have eaten it...is a dinosaur. It is a strategy of the past that for some reason remains a coach's security blanket.

The first five games of 2020 have not gone well. But he was a DC or HC for 10 seasons before this one in which he was able to establish that he knows what he's doing in designing and calling blitzes.

Again, he may not be the right guy for the job right now, and they may move on in the offseason. Fine. But he's not some clueless ******.

 

[Dantés]

Also relevant-- the defense isn't creating many big plays, but they also aren't allowing many.

They've allowed 13 plays of 20+ yards in the passing game, which is tied for the lowest number in the league (with the Chargers).

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

the real kicker is they don't do a good job of making in game adjustments

I would agree with this and say that is what can separate an average coach from a great coach.

Wonder if the Packers can lure Jim Leonhard away from Wisconsin in 2021? Not sure how happy I would be with that though, because he has been a phenomenal DC for the Badgers. I think Leonhard will stay in the College ranks and be a HC in the next few years.

 

[GleefulGary]

I don't know about tampa but Preston Smith has not been rushing a lot. He is backing off into coverage with an eye on flat area. Doubt that is the best way to use one of our best rushers.

He has dropped back almost exactly as many times per game as he did last year.

 

[GleefulGary]

I would agree with this and say that is what can separate an average coach from a great coach.

Wonder if the Packers can lure Jim Leonhard away from Wisconsin in 2021? Not sure how happy I would be with that though, because he has been a phenomenal DC for the Badgers. I think Leonhard will stay in the College ranks and be a HC in the next few years.

And guess where he learned his defense?

Rex Ryan and Mike Pettine!

 

[Dantés]

And guess where he learned his defense?

Rex Ryan and Mike Pettine!

Couldn’t be— the system doesn’t work.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Whoever has access to the advanced stats, please tell us what this defense does well.

I think the problem is this defense is mostly a lead protection defense, or at least that's how I'm feeling it. When our offense is on fire and opponents can't rely on the run as much and have to press the issue, defense can do well. But when the offense isn't doing well and opponents can methodically mix the run and the pass and grind on us like we saw last week, they can't be counted on to turn momentum and get turnovers. That's where I see problems.


Now, I'm not sure what things will look like in the playoffs. Assuming we don't face SF on the road, and even a possibility TB gets knocked out by someone else before we'd have to face them, could be our offense gets a favorable path to the nfccg again. But.... There will most certainly be prolific offenses we gotta play against. New Orleans, though we beat them the first time would have Michael Thomas back this time. And of course Seattle who yes we've beaten here in Lambeau in the past, but the way they're playing this year it's going to be hard to make sure we'd get them here, especially since we don't get to play them on our schedule.

All that to say I think we're going to have to replace Pettine especially if the defense can't get it done in the playoffs, which right now it's not looking like they will.

Who do we replace him with?

Well I understand why Zimmer is a favorable choice, but I doubt that'll happen because...

1. Chances he gets fired in Minny are extremely low even with the season they are having. Likely won't be out until next year.

2. Even if he did get fired, teams like the NYJs and DET would be jumping up and down to hire him as their HC with Gase and Patricia guaranteed to be fired at the end of the year, and no way Zimmer will turn down a HC job for a DC job. NONE

Now... While also a low chance probably, if Vic Fangio gets fired, I'd say go for him as his DC track record has been pretty good.

Ultimately, we may need to find our own Matt LaFleur of the defense kind of guy who has new ideas and doesn't just stick to the old philosophies that a lot of these retreads stick to.

 

[rmontro]

I believe the defense is at least average talent-wise. And they should be better with much investment they've poured into that unit the past few years.

It's like the old question was it Capers or was it the players Thompson provided.

A scheme that’s largely predicated on being unpredictable can’t have their players do the same thing on every play.

Funny how Capers was criticized for being too complicated, and now Pettine is being criticized for being too pretictable.

I think the problem is this defense is mostly a lead protection defense, or at least that's how I'm feeling it. When our offense is on fire and opponents can't rely on the run as much and have to press the issue, defense can do well. But when the offense isn't doing well and opponents can methodically mix the run and the pass and grind on us like we saw last week, they can't be counted on to turn momentum and get turnovers. That's where I see problems.

Sounds a lot like last year.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Capers took the blame for TT's abysmal ability to pick defensive players. Gute has better players but it's been shown that how many weak spots a team has matters more than how many strengths. Packer's defense is weak at corner #2-4, ILB, DE, and safety. Savage has been terrible this year, King has been mediocre and injured, and ILB is unchanged.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

It's like the old question was it Capers or was it the players Thompson provided.


Funny how Capers was criticized for being too complicated, and now Pettine is being criticized for being too pretictable.


Sounds a lot like last year.

Well, I think what's telling as well is that Pettine's defenses have just never been very good against the run. It's been something that he's kept with him everywhere he's gone. Bad run defense is often going to hurt you in the playoffs as we saw with the Colts most of the time in the Peyton Manning years, and it's likely to do the same here if we don't do something about it.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

But I will say one thing— fans who think that he just doesn’t understand scheme and he’s a dope are way off base. Pettine has done this professionally for a long time and he’s had a lot of success at it too. It never ceases to amaze me how fans will so casually decide that guys like this are clueless. I realize NFL fans are emotional, but come on...

Shouldn't that same logic by applied when talking about McCarthy as well???

I think King has been fine, just too injured and his play suffers from lack of continuity, lost practice, or lack of physicality to play like he can. When he's healthy for a few games in a row, he's definitely good enough.

Unfortunately being able to stay is a big part of being a successful player in the NFL.

Well, I think what's telling as well is that Pettine's defenses have just never been very good against the run. It's been something that he's kept with him everywhere he's gone.

Pettine coached a pretty strong rushing defense early in his tenure with the Jets. It's possible Ryan deserves a lion's share of the credit for it though.

 

[Mondio]

well yes, being available is half the battle. At this point, I do not want to invest much of anything into King for the future because of it. If he stayed healthy I could see a sizable investment being made. I was just commenting on him being mediocre. yes, mediocre from overall standpoint, but I think he's better than a mediocre player.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

well yes, being available is half the battle. At this point, I do not want to invest much of anything into King for the future because of it. If he stayed healthy I could see a sizable investment being made. I was just commenting on him being mediocre. yes, mediocre from overall standpoint, but I think he's better than a mediocre player.

King could be better than a mediocre player if he stayed healthy.

I agree the Packers shouldn't gamble on that happening in the future though and let another team sign him to a decent contract.

 

[XPack]

Probably a make or break season for him. If our D sucks going forward, we really should consider a change.

 

[Dantés]

Shouldn't that same logic by applied when talking about McCarthy as well???

Unfortunately being able to stay is a big part of being a successful player in the NFL.

Pettine coached a pretty strong rushing defense early in his tenure with the Jets. It's possible Ryan deserves a lion's share of the credit for it though.

Yes. I don’t think McCarthy is a moron. I just think his offense is kind of stale and doesn’t add a lot of value relative to other offensive coaches.