Joe Whitt / Winston Moss FIRED - merged threads

[Alex]

Maybe it would be odd to hire Leroy Butler. But if you have ever watched his Xs and Os you can see he knows what he is talking about and can communicate it. Could be he could get them working together.

I'd try to hire Al Harris away from KC first.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'd try to hire Al Harris away from KC first.

Didn't know Al was coaching, loved him as a player. Found this article and liked his last statement..... “You can’t coach toughness.”

https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/201...pared-to-tutor-new-faces-in-chiefs-secondary/

Since the Packers and some posters don't seem to see the need for replacing JW, probably no need to talk about who replaces him....just yet.

 

[Mondio]

As I keep saying, when Whitt can field a group of DB's that are playing consistently well and as a cohesive group (for the Packers), I will stop my "Fire Whitt" banter. But how long did we give Capers to do the same? How many times did Capers flash some good things on defense, only to revert back to the same old same old? How long do we keep pumping draft resources into the secondary and let the rest of the roster go to hell?

and I'd say you have to at least judge him when he's consistently had a consistent group to play with for a while. When you can see a seasoned unit like the Vikings look anything but Viking like because one DB gets knicked up and then one goes out why do you think 6 weeks into a new defense with most young and seemingly always revolving backs the Packers should just have it together?

And yes this goes back. The last time Whitt had a decent group it was Shields, Hayward, Rollins and Randall. Coincidently enough, that was about the last time that has even remotely resembled a consistent unit from week to week. Coincidence?

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Maybe it would be odd to hire Leroy Butler. But if you have ever watched his Xs and Os you can see he knows what he is talking about and can communicate it. Could be he could get them working together.

And the reason I'm on board with getting LeRoy Butler here coaching is because he was more than just a playmaker on defense. He was a defensive QB and a master of communication. He made sure his teammates were on the assignments they were supposed to be. This is what is needed to fix the defense right now, and it always shocked me that LeRoy wasn't given a coaching job. I'd say as a guy who played the game a long time and left a lasting legacy here in Green Bay, he should be given Whitt's job.

 

[Mondio]

yeah, like Forrest Gregg and Bart Starr

sometimes great players are left as great players

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

and I'd say you have to at least judge him when he's consistently had a consistent group to play with for a while. When you can see a seasoned unit like the Vikings look anything but Viking like because one DB gets knicked up and then one goes out why do you think 6 weeks into a new defense with most young and seemingly always revolving backs the Packers should just have it together?

And yes this goes back. The last time Whitt had a decent group it was Shields, Hayward, Rollins and Randall. Coincidently enough, that was about the last time that has even remotely resembled a consistent unit from week to week. Coincidence?

I think you are asking too much. Like you have told me many times, you can't have starter quality backups all the time and there are going to be injuries throughout the season. So each time there is an injury, Whitt and individual players get a free pass? This really isn't about backups playing poorly as much as it is starters being very inconsistent by not tackling well, being out of position, etc. If Bahk gets hurt on the OL, that might mean his backup is a bit of a liability, but the other 4 guys shouldn't get worse on an individual basis.

Bottom line for me, there has been way too much up and down, inconsistent play from just about every guy in the secondary for several years, if you want to blame it on injuries, so be it. I will keep blaming it on coaching until I see consistent improvement.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

And the reason I'm on board with getting LeRoy Butler here coaching is because he was more than just a playmaker on defense. He was a defensive QB and a master of communication. He made sure his teammates were on the assignments they were supposed to be. This is what is needed to fix the defense right now, and it always shocked me that LeRoy wasn't given a coaching job. I'd say as a guy who played the game a long time and left a lasting legacy here in Green Bay, he should be given Whitt's job.

If Butler can be as good of a coach as all this, I would be on board. My caveat with Butler is, kind of like Capers, knowing your X's and O's doesn't automatically make you a good coach. In today's game, you have to know how to not only translate it to your players, but also manage personalities and get the most out of each player that you are given to work with.

I doubt they could pry him away from being the Badgers DC, but Jim Leonhard is a guy that has impressed me as a coach who gets everything he can out of a player, individually and playing as a unit.

 

[Mondio]

So when you see a unit like the Vikings have a DB or 2 go down and the rest of the unit that’s been together for 5 years is intact start giving up yards and points in chunks that’s ok, but basically all new DBs outside of 1 rarely played rookie and a returning stater at safety with a new DC is reason to blame the coach?

Or you want to go back to a season where Gunter is the best you can put on the field and call that a fair assessment? There is nobody replacing David B. And 2 other guys with Don Barclay level talent and not miss a beat.

 

[gopkrs]

yeah, like Forrest Gregg and Bart Starr

sometimes great players are left as great players

I agreed with your statement. But that does not mean Leroy is not a communicator. I think he would be.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

So when you see a unit like the Vikings have a DB or 2 go down and the rest of the unit that’s been together for 5 years is intact start giving up yards and points in chunks that’s ok, but basically all new DBs outside of 1 rarely played rookie and a returning stater at safety with a new DC is reason to blame the coach?

Or you want to go back to a season where Gunter is the best you can put on the field and call that a fair assessment? There is nobody replacing David B. And 2 other guys with Don Barclay level talent and not miss a beat.

I'm not dodging your response, but I haven't paid attention to the Vikings, since the Packers played them. I will take your word on the fact that they are struggling. I don't even know which of their starters are missing? Are the true healthy starters themselves struggling or is having 2 backups in pulling them all down? Are the normally sure tacklers and cover guys looking lost and missing tackles?

I don't know how to say it any clearer than just keep repeating myself, so after this, I am going to stop. Given the amount of draft resources that the Packers have pumped into the secondary in the last 5 years, I would expect not only a much better unit, but much better individual players than the ones that have been out there every week. If you wan't to blame injuries, that is your prerogative, but if that is yours and the Packers excuse every week, than Whitt should be safe for another 10 years.

If Whitt can't do something with King, Jackson and Alexander in the next 3 years, I'm running out of even hopeful scenarios for the guy, as well as the Packers secondary while he is coaching.

 

[Jerellh528]

I'd try to hire Al Harris away from KC first.

Doesn’t KC have a crap pass D? Why would you want their dB coach?

 

[Jerellh528]

Fire Whitt, let’s bring in C wood. Lol

 

[swhitset]

I'm not dodging your response, but I haven't paid attention to the Vikings, since the Packers played them. I will take your word on the fact that they are struggling. I don't even know which of their starters are missing? Are the true healthy starters themselves struggling or is having 2 backups in pulling them all down? Are the normally sure tacklers and cover guys looking lost and missing tackles?

I don't know how to say it any clearer than just keep repeating myself, so after this, I am going to stop. Given the amount of draft resources that the Packers have pumped into the secondary in the last 5 years, I would expect not only a much better unit, but much better individual players than the ones that have been out there every week. If you wan't to blame injuries, that is your prerogative, but if that is yours and the Packers excuse every week, than Whitt should be safe for another 10 years.

If Whitt can't do something with King, Jackson and Alexander in the next 3 years, I'm running out of even hopeful scenarios for the guy, as well as the Packers secondary while he is coaching.

except we are only 6 games in... not 3 years... and alexander has missed the last 2....

 

[gopkrs]

Fire Whitt, let’s bring in C wood. Lol

Yes, that is a lol. I have never heard Woodsen talk about the DBs working as a whole. He was a great catalyst and had some great motivational comments, but I have never seen him diagnose a play. Nobody is saying just bring in a jock. I never agree with that.

 

[Jerellh528]

Yes, that is a lol. I have never heard Woodsen talk about the DBs working as a whole. He was a great catalyst and had some great motivational comments, but I have never seen him diagnose a play. Nobody is saying just bring in a jock. I never agree with that.

I agree, I’m mostly against brining in former players, especially star players that haven’t had at least success in their coaching role with a few years of experience first. I feel like guys who always wanted to be a coach make better coaches than retired athletes that just need a job.

 

[rodell330]

Butler would be an odd choice as he hasn't coached at any level.



Clinton-Dix is by far the best safety on the roster. There's no reason to get him off the field.



Murphy is mostly responsible for the financial side of the franchise. He has done a masterful job in that regard.



Jones isn't suited to play free safety.

Lol ok Coach

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

yeah, like Forrest Gregg and Bart Starr

sometimes great players are left as great players

Apples to oranges, we are not talking about a head coach position.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

If Butler can be as good of a coach as all this, I would be on board. My caveat with Butler is, kind of like Capers, knowing your X's and O's doesn't automatically make you a good coach. In today's game, you have to know how to not only translate it to your players, but also manage personalities and get the most out of each player that you are given to work with.

I doubt they could pry him away from being the Badgers DC, but Jim Leonhard is a guy that has impressed me as a coach who gets everything he can out of a player, individually and playing as a unit.

Funny you mention this, was just watching the Badgers game and they were talking about how Leonard is not watering down the scheme for anyone just because his secondary has been banged up. Seems Whitt or somebody could learn something from him.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Funny you mention this, was just watching the Badgers game and they were talking about how Leonard is not watering down the scheme for anyone just because his secondary has been banged up. Seems Whitt or somebody could learn something from him.

Yup and that is Leonhard having to play walk-ons and 3 deep guys due to injuries. While the Badgers didn't face much of an offense today, some of those guys in the secondary were really sharp their first time out.

 

[Mondio]

Let's not even pretend we're going to compare the WI badgers and an NFL team. and the Badgers defense has not been sharp this year.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Let's not even pretend we're going to compare the WI badgers and an NFL team. and the Badgers defense has not been sharp this year.

We weren't comparing the Badgers with an NFL team, we were saying what Leonhard could do when having to coach and play "scraps" on his defense.

 

[Mondio]

So the comparison would be between Pettine and Leonard?

And the Badgers were absolutely destroyed when they played a quality team in MI.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

So the comparison would be between Pettine and Leonard?

And the Badgers were absolutely destroyed when they played a quality team in MI.

Actually, if you followed the conversation and I don't expect you to, since we all post in other areas. But the conversation in those posts was referring to how Leonhard would compare to Whitt in regards to coaching the Secondary of the Packers, had nothing to do with Pettine.

Funny you mention this, was just watching the Badgers game and they were talking about how Leonard is not watering down the scheme for anyone just because his secondary has been banged up. Seems Whitt or somebody could learn something from him.

Yup and that is Leonhard having to play walk-ons and 3 deep guys due to injuries. While the Badgers didn't face much of an offense today, some of those guys in the secondary were really sharp their first time out.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Maybe it would be odd to hire Leroy Butler. But if you have ever watched his Xs and Os you can see he knows what he is talking about and can communicate it. Could be he could get them working together.

It's a huge difference between hosting a show with Tom Silverstein and being responsible for coaching an NFL secondary though.

This is what is needed to fix the defense right now, and it always shocked me that LeRoy wasn't given a coaching job.

Maybe Butler hasn't been interested in coaching or just isn't good at it.

Doesn’t KC have a crap pass D? Why would you want their dB coach?

The Chiefs are ranked seventh in opponents passer rating since Harris took over as their secondary coach in 2016.

 

[Mondio]

Actually, if you followed the conversation and I don't expect you to, since we all post in other areas. But the conversation in those posts was referring to how Leonhard would compare to Whitt in regards to coaching the Secondary of the Packers, had nothing to do with Pettine.

Oh I followed, but it's logically fallacious. First off, a position coach is not a coordinator so he's not keeping, changing, swapping out, or inventing a new defensive scheme. So if you want to compare Leonard, compare him to Pettine. At least it makes sense. Next would be the mistake in thinking a big 10 college defense is in anyway comparable to fielding a pro football defense. Put 3 NFL caliber defenders on a defense with just a bunch of other college players against a college team with just a bunch of college players and they'll likely dominate, especially of those players are up front. Put those same NFL caliber players in the NFL on the same defense against another NFL offense and often times they become just guys because they're ALL NFL talent. there are huge discrepancies in college football that make it easier for teams with better recruiting to look so much better than everyone else. WI looking OK against IL doesn't mean a whole lot.

Look, I like what Leonard has done at WI from the time he played until now, but let's not get carried away. Just in terms of talent comparisons, the Packers against the Bills was a much closer match up than almost anything the Badgers have to face on a week to week basis. And when they've actually gone against more evenly matched teams, they haven't always fared so well. Just a week ago is pretty good example and MI isn't even an elite team.

and then to make the comparison that Leonard isn't going to water down a scheme and I only would have to go back to last year to see poster after poster making the claim the Packers need to pull back on their defensive calls and make it easier on younger backs. Now to this year and we have a DC that says he keeps it likable and learnable, in essence easier to digest, at least that's the way it's being portrayed. and now it's a knock on the position coach because he's "watering down" the defense for young DB's as opposed to a college Coordinator that says he's not? I guess I don't that part.