Joe Whitt / Winston Moss FIRED - merged threads

[Sunshinepacker]

Fair enough, but if I see two pretty sure upgrade coming out of the draft plus an opportunity to get a better DBs coach and give Pettine complete control of the defense without being forced to work with Whitt, I'd shoot for it.

Upgrades at safety would be nice but let's not forget the bigger need on this team is pass rush. If, by keeping HHCD and overpaying what we think he's worth by $3 mil per season and being able to focus on the pass rush in the draft vs saving $5 mil a year with a lesser vet free agent at safety but then having to split the focus between safety and pass rush in the draft, I would prefer to keep HHCD and focus on pass rush. The problem with letting HHCD walk is that the money you save isn't going to be enough to get a pass rusher that's as good at pass rushing as HHCD is at safety. So I'd rather keep the safety and be able to focus on pass rush....hope that made sense and wasn't just rambling.

 

[Mondio]

I doubt Pettine took this job if he felt he was hamstrung by a coach being forced upon him. Where do people come up with some of this stuff?

 

[Poppa San]

I doubt Pettine took this job if he felt he was hamstrung by a coach being forced upon him. Where do people come up with some of this stuff?

I was thinking of the same thing just now when I stepped away for a few seconds before reading your post. Witt was not forced upon Pettine. If the Packers really wanted Witt over Pettine, they'd have given him Pettine's job. I believe he interviewed for it.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

and...you noticed that Whitt did not get the DC job?

I know there are some "Joe Whitt supporters" here, I'm just not feeling the love. I hope I am wrong about him.

Do we know for sure that Pettine had a choice on Whitt continuing with the Packers? Sounds like it was McCarthy who made the decision.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

and...you noticed that Whitt did not get the DC job?

I know there are some "Joe Whitt supporters" here, I'm just not feeling the love. I hope I am wrong about him.

Do we know for sure that Pettine had a choice on Whitt continuing with the Packers? Sounds like it was McCarthy who made the decision.

I don't think anyone will ever know that but why would Pettine come to a job where he's being forced to keep a coach he doesn't want? I mean, I'm pretty sure Pettine wants to do well as a DC and I doubt he comes to the Packers if he's coming into a situation where he's unhappy with the coaches he has on staff.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't think anyone will ever know that but why would Pettine come to a job where he's being forced to keep a coach he doesn't want? I mean, I'm pretty sure Pettine wants to do well as a DC and I doubt he comes to the Packers if he's coming into a situation where he's unhappy with the coaches he has on staff.

I can think of a number of reasons:

1. Pettine wasn't given full decision making when it came to assistant coaches.
2. Pettine drank the same kool-aid that Whitt was a great Secondary coach.
3. Whitt is on a short leash and much of his failures were attributed to TT.
4. I am completely wrong and by the end of next season, the Packers will have one of the best secondaries in the league, only a mere 10 years after Whitt started.

Edit:
5. Wild conspiracy theory behind it

 

[Mondio]

So what if he didn't get the DC job? I'm not even going to start coming up with examples of people in all walks of life, including the NFL that are very good at their jobs or just good at their jobs and certainly above the liability for their company level of work that aren't ready for the next step up. And of course Pettine had a choice.

Look this team wasn't in complete disarray. it was time for change, they made them with the best intentions in mind. They don't have all these super secret pacts that seem to be alluded to all the time. I'm fairly confident that Gute respects MM and Murphy, Thompson, etc. I'm certain MM respects gute, Murphy, Ted, Joe, Joe and Pettine and on and on. I don't think Gute was named a GM to keep Thompson in charge behind the scenes like so many said when he was hired. Gute was hired because they thought he was the guy. If Gute didn't think he had GM authority he would have gone to his other interviews. Philbin was hired because they thought he was a great offensive mind and could help this team. Pettine was hired to get us a better defense, not be a place holder with a sub staff waiting to take the HC position.

I don't think they brought Philbin or Pettine on board with the thought of replacing MM at years end. I don't think Pettine took a job with GB with a coach he did not want on his staff being forced on his staff. Why would he? Is there some sort of wink wink, nod agreement that he take a job with a coach he thinks is a liability for the young secondary he's sure to have to work with because if they suck he's going to get to keep his job anyway or replace the head guy? I doubt it. I guess I just don't know why a professional at anything would take a job like that? so he can blame it on his "pass defense coordinator" in his next job interview? these guys aren't in the habit of making excuses, if they were they'd never rise to where they are.

I gotta believe the chances are infinitely more probable that Pettine is completely comfortable with Whitt as his staff member or he would have told them thanks, but not thanks. Unless you believe there is some wild conspiracy theory behind it.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I can think of a number of reasons:

1. Pettine wasn't given full decision making when it came to assistant coaches.
2. Pettine drank the same kool-aid that Whitt was a great Secondary coach.
3. Whitt is on a short leash and much of his failures were attributed to TT.
4. I am completely wrong and by the end of next season, the Packers will have one of the best secondaries in the league, only a mere 10 years after Whitt started.

I'm not disputing that those are possibilities, I was just saying that we'll never know.

I'd also point out that the corner group was most certainly elite in 2009 with Woodson, Harris, and Williams (not Bush, NEVER Bush); elite again in 2010 with the same guys plus Sam Shields. Granted, their was a bit of a lull the next few seasons as Woodson was 35 and the Packers had basically no pass rush.

It's fair to criticize him if you think he hasn't developed anyone recently but I would just ask you which recent players he's been given that he failed? Randall was a safety that was forced to play corner because of TT"s roster decisions, Rollins was always a limited athlete that the team was counting on for his instincts and when his athleticism declined he just couldn't cut it. Hayward was amazing as a rookie before injuries and, again, TT was the guy that let him walk or else he'd still be on the Packers (unless you believe that basically two months of offseason training camp with the Chargers is what turned him into a Pro Bowl corner).

The good news is that it appears he actually has some young players to develop now, so we'll get to see what he can do this year and get some clarity on this.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I gotta believe the chances are infinitely more probable that Pettine is completely comfortable with Whitt as his staff member or he would have told them thanks, but not thanks. Unless you believe there is some wild conspiracy theory behind it.

I updated my reasoning for you.

 

[Mondio]

Besides Shields, Woodson, Williams etc. Randall was good here, Hayward was good here, Hyde was good here, Rollins had a good rookies season and was bascially hurt for 2 years and tore his achilles. Even Gunter was decent here with his very limited athleticism.

We've all seen what NOT having a good team defense can do to the overall look. When the Vikings torched by basically everyone since the end of last season it was for one of 2 reasons. Either they had a guy or 2 go down in the secondary, or like the Rams this year, they could not put any pressure on the QB and the DB's and linebackers that were so heavily praised just last season looked like they couldn't cover a lamp.

the Packers have had a lot of reasons for poor production, much of it available players at important positions and hardly ever a group that complimented each other.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The good news is that it appears he actually has some young players to develop now, so we'll get to see what he can do this year and get some clarity on this.

Can I quote you on this in a few years if the 3 young guys don't pay off with the dividends that they should?

Also, this isn't just about developing individual talent, its getting the guys he coaches to play as a unit, something very important in pass defense. I don't see a lot of that this year and maybe you want to blame Pettine on that, but Whitt is the guy being labeled as "Pass Game Coordinator".

 

[Mondio]

Can I quote you on this in a few years if the 3 young guys don't pay off with the dividends that they should?

Also, this isn't just about developing individual talent, its getting the guys he coaches to play as a unit, something very important in pass defense. I don't see a lot of that this year and maybe you want to blame Pettine on that, but Whitt is the guy being labeled as "Pass Game Coordinator".

I'd say we've seen "some" of that this year. It seems to happen early in a game and then get tightened up. I expect mishaps to happen when you have a 2nd year guy that seems like he's missed more time than played. He's essentially a rookie to me, and 2 other rookies, and a new young safety in a new defense for everyone. It's not like Alexander was drafted and on a defense where everyone else has been playing for 5 years.

There should be mishaps expected. But I have seen it get locked down after making mistakes too. That shows me guys are coaching and players are learning. I think this year is much different than the past couple on defense, despite the overall look of it.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Can I quote you on this in a few years if the 3 young guys don't pay off with the dividends that they should?

Also, this isn't just about developing individual talent, its getting the guys he coaches to play as a unit, something very important in pass defense. I don't see a lot of that this year and maybe you want to blame Pettine on that, but Whitt is the guy being labeled as "Pass Game Coordinator".

Isn't that what the Internet's for? Archiving our terrible takes and throwing them back in our faces years later?

 

[GBkrzygrl]

Upgrades at safety would be nice but let's not forget the bigger need on this team is pass rush. If, by keeping HHCD and overpaying what we think he's worth by $3 mil per season and being able to focus on the pass rush in the draft vs saving $5 mil a year with a lesser vet free agent at safety but then having to split the focus between safety and pass rush in the draft, I would prefer to keep HHCD and focus on pass rush. The problem with letting HHCD walk is that the money you save isn't going to be enough to get a pass rusher that's as good at pass rushing as HHCD is at safety. So I'd rather keep the safety and be able to focus on pass rush....hope that made sense and wasn't just rambling.

I got it.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Isn't that what the Internet's for? Archiving our terrible takes and throwing them back in our faces years later?

We live for those times!

Yup....wasn't it you back in 2014 that said....."Packers just made the steal of the draft with their 7th round pick of Jeff Janis, he is going to be a Pro Bowler in 2 years, mark my words"

 

[swhitset]

and...you noticed that Whitt did not get the DC job?

I know there are some "Joe Whitt supporters" here, I'm just not feeling the love. I hope I am wrong about him.

Do we know for sure that Pettine had a choice on Whitt continuing with the Packers? Sounds like it was McCarthy who made the decision.

I am not a Whitt supporter how could I be ... I don’t know much about him beyond his job title. Conversely, I don’t think we have nearly enough information about what goes on in the Packer organization to call for his dismissal. Beyond that, we are only 6 games into a new defensive scheme with a new defensive coordinator starting a bunch of young defensive backs, the best of which has not even played in the last 2 games. Frankly, I’m a bit surprised that this thread has gotten this much traction. I actually thought you had started it with a bit of the tongue in cheek. Now i’m not saying that the time might not come to fire him, but it certainly seems to be a bit of a knee jerk reaction at this point.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

We live for those times!

Yup....wasn't it you back in 2014 that said....."Packers just made the steal of the draft with their 7th round pick of Jeff Janis, he is going to be a Pro Bowler in 2 years, mark my words"

No, you have me confused with someone else I think. I was the guy saying we needed to trade up for Blake Bortles because Rodgers was slowing down; how was I supposed to know Rodgers was gonna dig out an MVP campaign at the tail-end of his career?

 

[OldSchool101]

I know I’d like to start fresh, if this secondary doesn’t turn things around by December, I’d be looking for a new position coach for them.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if we go out and get at least one solid, proven Veteran FA this offseason at either OLB or Safety. Sort of like we did with the TE position this year. We don’t need another experiment in the making for 3 more years (aka Datone). We need to hit one of those 3 positions running. Then it might be a saving grace if we can resign Mo to another short term <=5M deal.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I am not a Whitt supporter how could I be ... I don’t know much about him beyond his job title. Conversely, I don’t think we have nearly enough information about what goes on in the Packer organization to call for his dismissal. Beyond that, we are only 6 games into a new defensive scheme with a new defensive coordinator starting a bunch of young defensive backs, the best of which has not even played in the last 2 games. Frankly, I’m a bit surprised that this thread has gotten this much traction. I actually thought you had started it with a bit of the tongue in cheek. Now i’m not saying that the time might not come to fire him, but it certainly seems to be a bit of a knee jerk reaction at this point.

My knee was jerking and reacting way before this year.....so kind of like my desire to see Janis gone for years, I haven't been a Whitt guy for a long time either. Not going to dig out my old posts, but I was freaking out when Whitt was even talked about as a possible DC. I would have been fine with him gone 2 years ago. But like you and others have pointed out and I admit, I don't know what is going on for sure and for all I know, all he needed was a new DC to teach under and all will be well. But sorry, I just can't shake the feeling that this guy has been resting on Sam Shields success story far too long and if I am right (hope I am not), this young secondary that the Packers invested heavily in, won't be as good as they could be.

 

[swhitset]

My knee was jerking and reacting way before this year.....so kind of like my desire to see Janis gone for years, I haven't been a Whitt guy for a long time either. Not going to dig out my old posts, but I was freaking out when Whitt was even talked about as a possible DC. I would have been fine with him gone 2 years ago. But like you and others have pointed out and I admit, I don't know what is going on for sure and for all I know, all he needed was a new DC to teach under and all will be well. But sorry, I just can't shake the feeling that this guy has been resting on Sam Shields success story far too long and if I am right (hope I am not), this young secondary that the Packers invested heavily in, won't be as good as they could be.

Yeah I’ve been here for that too lol, and I admit I’ve had my doubts about Whitt in the past. I certainly was not in favor of him getting the defensive coordinator job, but I don’t think we have enough info at this point to say much more than that.

 

[Mondio]

My knee was jerking and reacting way before this year.....so kind of like my desire to see Janis gone for years, I haven't been a Whitt guy for a long time either. Not going to dig out my old posts, but I was freaking out when Whitt was even talked about as a possible DC. I would have been fine with him gone 2 years ago. But like you and others have pointed out and I admit, I don't know what is going on for sure and for all I know, all he needed was a new DC to teach under and all will be well. But sorry, I just can't shake the feeling that this guy has been resting on Sam Shields success story far too long and if I am right (hope I am not), this young secondary that the Packers invested heavily in, won't be as good as they could be.

but Shields isn't the only guy he's coached. Tramon was here, Woodson resurrected a career here (albeit most from injury with the Raiders), Hyde was here, Hayward was here. Like someone said earlier, he didn't just get good coaching in a couple months with the Chargers and get good. He was dang good here, when he wasn't injured. Randall was good, it's his **** *** attitude that nobody can get past. Rollins played 1 year of college football, was here and had great ratings and reviews at the end of year 1, then was injured. He didn't just coach Shields. and we've had other guys here do well. and as I said before, even this year, new scheme for everyone and lots of youth on the back end. They make mistakes and then tighten it up. Guys are coaching and guys are learning. I'm excited to see King, Alexander, Jackson, Breeland all on the field and healthy for a few weeks together. Not sure I'll ever see that though. It seems GB has a 2 player minimum when it comes to injury at any position group.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I say give Leroy a shot.

Butler would be an odd choice as he hasn't coached at any level.

If he doesn't find a way to get HAHA of the field he will be accountable.

Clinton-Dix is by far the best safety on the roster. There's no reason to get him off the field.

But I want McCarthy to go also it has been long enough he is too complacent and has wasted most of Rodgers career. And Mark Murphy needs to go also. I am so sick of those two bums

Murphy is mostly responsible for the financial side of the franchise. He has done a masterful job in that regard.

I think eventually we will see Josh Jones take over at that spot. He’s a 2nd rd pick and would’ve probably been there had he not got hurt. May be the perfect time to implement him into the scheme going into a by week.

Jones isn't suited to play free safety.

Most of the knocks on Whitt I think are less about the young corners and more that a couple of veteran safeties are underperforming.

Brice didn't play a lot before this season though, totaling only 623 snaps during his first two years in the league.

Fair enough, but if I see two pretty sure upgrade coming out of the draft plus an opportunity to get a better DBs coach and give Pettine complete control of the defense without being forced to work with Whitt, I'd shoot for it.

There's no way the Packers can be sure about two draft picks being an immediate upgrade.

 

[gopkrs]

Concussion issues.

I don't know how that got passed me. I thought Whitt was being talked about.

 

[gopkrs]

Maybe it would be odd to hire Leroy Butler. But if you have ever watched his Xs and Os you can see he knows what he is talking about and can communicate it. Could be he could get them working together.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

As I keep saying, when Whitt can field a group of DB's that are playing consistently well and as a cohesive group (for the Packers), I will stop my "Fire Whitt" banter. But how long did we give Capers to do the same? How many times did Capers flash some good things on defense, only to revert back to the same old same old? How long do we keep pumping draft resources into the secondary and let the rest of the roster go to hell?