I'm the optimistic fan...

[longtimefan]

OK, total yards aside, it looks like they are 12th in points allowed. Is that still considered that good? Edit; Looks like you posted the answer just as I was posting this.

if it is 12 allowed, thats better than average

 

[desertdog55]

We were all waiting on "bad Cutler" last night, and it didn't happen. And if you have watched the Bears at all this year, he is not the same Cutler. There was never a doubt that he had the talent, but he lacked guidance and attitude....he is receiving that now and it is showing on the field. Finding a coaching match is critical in player development.

 

[Croak]

if it is 12 allowed, thats better than average

True. I guess I'm wired a little differently. I have a hard time being satisfied with just a "better than average" defense. My gut tells me this defense is not a defense that wins championships.

 

[Mondio]

If our offense was performing this is plenty of defense to win a championship

 

[longtimefan]

True. I guess I'm wired a little differently. I have a hard time being satisfied with just a "better than average" defense. My gut tells me this defense is not a defense that wins championships.

last year the scoring D was tied at 13th, with 21.8 points per game and should have been in the SB... We have 19.5 this year..

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Not saying the def is great...Just pointing out going only by yards is wrong way to go..

Cutler is not same player from last year. Only 6 ints so far..

The coaching is much better this year. Adam Gase finally runs an offense to highlight Cutler's strengths instead of weaknesses.

Plus Cutler didn't "have to" make a throw last night. The Bears were never trailing to a point where Cutler forced throws down field. Bears ran a ton of bubble screens and traditional, running back screens last night.

 

[Croak]

last year the scoring D was tied at 13th, with 21.8 points per game and should have been in the SB... We have 19.5 this year..

Truth be told, I wasn't completely sold on last year's defense either. When I think of Championship caliber defense, I think of a defense other teams are very afraid to face. But, I'm also the guy who thought Peterson was gonna run havok over this defense.

 

[Carl]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

Yeah, let's use total yards when we've played one more game than most teams instead of yards per game.....

 

[TJV]

OK, total yards aside, it looks like they are 12th in points allowed. Is that still considered that good? Edit; Looks like you posted the answer just as I was posting this.

Click on PTS/G and YDS/G instead of PTS and YDS because teams have played a different number of games. They are 8th in PTS/G.

 

[Croak]

This is why I don't like stats and yet I was dumb enough to use a link. Everyone picks the part of the chart they like. So lets just take LTF's comment and do an exercise in rhetoric; "better than average" can also be "better than mediocre", "better than ordinary", "better than middle of the road", "better than pedestrian", "better than unexceptional". None of these really gives me a whole lot of confidence in the description of the defense. Are we really saying we are pleased that our defense at least isn't pedestrian?

 

[TJV]

This is why I don't like stats and yet I was dumb enough to use a link. Everyone picks the part of the chart they like.

I see why you don't like stats, when you say something as ridiculous as "everyone picks the part of the chart they like" in this discussion. Do you really not understand the difference between points or yards allowed and points or yards allowed per game? Let me help: If team A and team B have the exact same defense, it is to be expected that team A will have surrendered more points than B if team A has played 11 games and team B has played 10. For example, if both surrender an average of 15 points per game team A will have surrendered 165 points and team B will have surrendered 150 points. Even though team A has surrendered more total points, at this point in the season, they are equal in the number of points they surrender on average. If that really is too nuanced for you... Yes sometimes people cherry-pick stats. This is not one of those times.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

This is why I don't like stats and yet I was dumb enough to use a link. Everyone picks the part of the chart they like. So lets just take LTF's comment and do an exercise in rhetoric; "better than average" can also be "better than mediocre", "better than ordinary", "better than middle of the road", "better than pedestrian", "better than unexceptional". None of these really gives me a whole lot of confidence in the description of the defense. Are we really saying we are pleased that our defense at least isn't pedestrian?

As you said, the problem is that we aren't even close to holding every team to the average number of points in our history. We have usually held the mediocre offenses to nothing and been gashed by good offenses in the past. Which puts us middle of the pack in defense and out of the playoffs when we face a good offense.

 

[Croak]

I see why you don't like stats, when you say something as ridiculous as "everyone picks the part of the chart they like" in this discussion. Do you really not understand the difference between points or yards allowed and points or yards allowed per game? Let me help: If team A and team B have the exact same defense, it is to be expected that team A will have surrendered more points than B if team A has played 11 games and team B has played 10. For example, if both surrender an average of 15 points per game team A will have surrendered 165 points and team B will have surrendered 150 points. Even though team A has surrendered more total points, at this point in the season, they are equal in the number of points they surrender on average. If that really is too nuanced for you... Yes sometimes people cherry-pick stats. This is not one of those times.

Didn't I make it clear I was referring to *all* of the stats together instead of just yards, or points? My bad. Let's take the points consideration then. The Bears are averaging about 21 points a game and they are arguably not a very good team. Our defense gave up 17 points to them. So according to the points criterion what does that make our defense? A really good one?

 

[Mondio]

They arguably are very talented on offense or is that not relevant. 17 given up should have won us the game

 

[Croak]

They arguably are very talented on offense or is that not relevant. 17 given up should have won us the game

Well, they sure looked talented *last* night.

 

[Mondio]

They basically put up the same offensive output against the #1 ranked defense last week minus their top 2 offensive players, so what do you expect from this defense? And that's with our offense giving another opponent points on turnovers in scoring position.

 

[Half Empty]

Only reason why I have any hope for this season is because of the Super Bowl 45 run. If not for that, I'd be in 100% panic mode right now.

And, there's really no comparison, besides the sheer number of injuries. In 2010, the majority of the folks on IR were "who?" names. Some of the others were backups playing when they should have been all along. Some of the replacements had career years and then disappeared. Even Finley's absence was probably a positive in that it forced more variety in the offense. This year, "next man up" isn't, and even when the starters don't go down, they're far from what we once saw in them.

 

[TJV]

Didn't I make it clear I was referring to *all* of the stats together instead of just yards, or points? My bad. Let's take the points consideration then. The Bears are averaging about 21 points a game and they are arguably not a very good team. Our defense gave up 17 points to them. So according to the points criterion what does that make our defense? A really good one?

What the stats on the page you linked show is that right now the Packers have the 8th ranked defense in the league as measured by (what I consider the most important stat since it’s how games are determined) points surrendered . They also show the Packers are surrendering only 1.3 more points per game than the leading D, the Patriots. No one has ever posted that stats tell the whole story and of course I’m not either. But regarding last night’s game, do you think the Packers D played well enough to win? I certainly do and put the loss squarely on the offense.

Regarding what you made clear, even after others pointed out the difference between total points/yards and points/yards per game you posted:

So are we saying it's good to be a 26th ranked defense?

OK, total yards aside, it looks like they are 12th in points allowed.

Which led me to believe you still didn’t understand it. And regarding what the link displayed (“Doesn’t it look at the “whole” defense”), no it doesn’t. And even if it did, you continued to misstate the stats it does display.

 

[Croak]

What the stats on the page you linked show is that right now the Packers have the 8th ranked defense in the league as measured by (what I consider the most important stat since it’s how games are determined) points surrendered . They also show the Packers are surrendering only 1.3 more points per game than the leading D, the Patriots. No one has ever posted that stats tell the whole story and of course I’m not either. But regarding last night’s game, do you think the Packers D played well enough to win? I certainly do and put the loss squarely on the offense.

Regarding what you made clear, even after others pointed out the difference between total points/yards and points/yards per game you posted: Which led me to believe you still didn’t understand it. And regarding what the link displayed (“Doesn’t it look at the “whole” defense”), no it doesn’t. And even if it did, you continued to misstate the stats it does display.

I guess we were looking at different points stats. I was looking at total points allowed, which is 12th. Apparently others are referring to points per game. If they are 26th in yards allowed plus 12th in total points allowed, I think it's quite fair to assume this is not a "shut down" defense. And honestly, I was hoping our defense would do something more like the Seahawks did to the Bears.

A good discussion, by the way addresses, the issues being discussed rather than the ability of the person discussing them.

 

[TJV]

Croak, you remain completely clueless about very basic statistics. The Packers are not 12th in points allowed or 26th in points allowed. It's hard to believe you can't comprehend that.

 

[Croak]

Croak, you remain completely clueless about very basic statistics. The Packers are not 12th in points allowed or 26th in points allowed. It's hard to believe you can't comprehend that.

Ah, I see where I have failed to communicate well. What I'm saying is the Packers "rank" 12th in fewest points allowed. (see the ESPN link) I have really confused the issue by seeing what I wanted to say and not communicating it properly. No wonder you were puzzled. They are 26th in yards given up. So what I'm trying to say is that they are not a "top ten" defense in either category. LTF said it well; they are better than average. But that is not what I would like to see out of a team that should be fighting for the top couple of seeds in the playoffs.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Ah, I see where I have failed to communicate well. What I'm saying is the Packers "rank" 12th in fewest points allowed. (see the ESPN link) I have really confused the issue by seeing what I wanted to say and not communicating it properly. No wonder you were puzzled. They are 26th in yards given up. So what I'm trying to say is that they are not a "top ten" defense in either category. LTF said it well; they are better than average. But that is not what I would like to see out of a team that should be fighting for the top couple of seeds in the playoffs.

Geez, it's really not that tough to understand. As of right now the Packers are one of only six teams that have played 11 games, the other 26 have only finished 10 games. That's why using total yards and points allowed is a terrible metric to rank them.

Overall the defense has played well enough this season, the offense is mostly to blame for the team's struggles.

 

[easyk83]

So are we saying it's good to be a 26th ranked defense?

Nope but its pretty good to be the number 8 scoring defense, let's not forget that 7 of Chicago's points came off a short field from Eddie Lacy's fumble.

 

[Mat Bastian]

Jumping the gun man.

Just over a month ago people were seriously considering Rodgers as the Michael Jordan of football! He's shaken right now, sure, but there was not THAT kind of falloff. Rodgers will be good for more than half a decade longer, I think.

 

[Croak]

Geez, it's really not that tough to understand. As of right now the Packers are one of only six teams that have played 11 games, the other 26 have only finished 10 games. That's why using total yards and points allowed is a terrible metric to rank them.

Overall the defense has played well enough this season, the offense is mostly to blame for the team's struggles.

Oh, I understood well enough. I just wasn't stating my point properly. I agree the O is mostly to blame. I guess I expect too much from the defense.