Fire Capers

[PackerDNA]

It's time for change. He's running basically the same stuff he's been running for years; opposing offenses aren't fooled anymore.
All his fault? No, but there needs to be new blood and a new direction.

 

[adambr2]

Well, if anything Capers continues to prove his worth to MM. I mean you had the Packers defense (which was expected to be bad) going against the best offense in the NFL; the result was unsurprising, the defense gave up a lot of points. However, the Packer's went into the game with a terrific offense and were going against a terrible defense and the offense proceeded to do absolutely nothing and yet Capers, who coaches the defense that was expected to do poorly, gets the blame while MM, who coaches the offense which was FAR worse than expected, can sit back and enjoy Capers being the scapegoat.

I'm blown away by this logic. 'Yeah, the defense sucked, BUT they were EXPECTED to suck, so no one should be upset at Capers that his defense sucked.'

For the 100th time, no one is saying the offense didn't suck on Sunday. This thread is about a recurring problem, not about asking who is to blame for the NFCCG loss.

The offense was expected to do well and didn't, that's an anamoly. You don't fire people based off an anamoly.

On the other hand, you have a DC who has had 8 seasons with the team with many different personnel and players, and had 16 playoff games, an entire season's worth of a sample, and the song and dance is the same every January. Either a pounding, or a late meltdown. 27 PPG allowed on average in all playoff games over 8 season with a lot of different players. Playoff losses of 51, 45, 44, and 37 points allowed.

This is not an anamoly. This is a very well established pattern.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

How exactly do those reflect on MM's ability to coach the offense? Give AR a ton of credit for what the offense was able to do in the last half of the season, but I for one give MM some credit too for helping to resurrect a fading offense.

The fading offense that he coached all last season? Again, it's amazing the lack of criticism that MM's offense receives when a team like the Saints manages to put together a better offense with lesser players. I mean, look what Kyle Shanahan did with Matt Ryan. Yeah, Julio Jones is really freaking good, but I'd say that the gap between Jones and Nelson is smaller than the gap between Ryan and Rodgers.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Personally, I had been on the fence for years over Dom. What I would like to read are reasons why Dom deserves to continue to be the DC of the Green Bay Packers. Seems like a lot of reasons listed in this thread as to why he shouldn't. I am open to the positives too.

Let's see, just last season he had a very good defense that managed to carry the Packers to the playoffs despite the offense being one of the worst in the NFL. Despite the "alternative facts" Capers has really only had three seasons with below-average defenses; this past season (I think we can largely agree that injuries were a big part of that), 2013 and 2011. Other than that his defenses have been above average (using Football Outsiders DVOA for these since they actually adjust for strength of opponent which gets conveniently ignored quite a bit).

Too much blame gets put on him for the loss in Seattle (somehow the defense forced Russell Wilson into his worst ever game and yet Capers was bad). Realistically, people want to be able to blame ONE person for the problems because it's far easier to replace one guy than to admit the defensive personnel is not good (takes a lot longer to get better players). It's also easier to just say things like "next man up!" or "don't only rush three guys!" or "stop playing zone!" and believe that the alternatives would obviously be better and that Capers is stupid for not realizing what he called was a terrible idea. Yes, the Packers have given up a ton of points in their losses in the playoffs but that's got some bias in it considering that the team is only playing the best teams when in the playoffs; you would expect to give up more points in the playoffs because you're not playing the Bills/Browns/Bears/etc.

Probably the biggest legit criticism of Capers is that he has a complex defense that takes time to learn and that doesn't mesh well with Thompson's team-building philosophy. When the Packers won the Super Bowl on the back of a great defense it was because Capers had vets like Woodson, Jenkins, Williams, etc.; not a bunch of rookie and second year guys. Now, I'm not sure how to fix that problem, simple defenses in the NFL will get destroyed unless you have a best in the league safety like Earl Thomas (looked what happened to the Seahawks without him).

Now, if the Packers cut ties with Capers I completely understand, someone has to take the fall for a poor performance. However, Peter Pan or Merlin aren't available to perform some magic trick that would allow Gunter and Brice to be able to cover Julio Jones or Joe Thomas to cover Freeman or MARWIN freakin' EVANS to cover anyone (maybe he turns into something down the road but that guy is not ready for the NFL yet). The DC isn't the main issue with the team, defensive personnel and an offense that kept hanging the defense out to dry were the main issues against the Falcons.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I'm blown away by this logic. 'Yeah, the defense sucked, BUT they were EXPECTED to suck, so no one should be upset at Capers that his defense sucked.'

For the 100th time, no one is saying the offense didn't suck on Sunday. This thread is about a recurring problem, not about asking who is to blame for the NFCCG loss.

The offense was expected to do well and didn't, that's an anamoly. You don't fire people based off an anamoly.

On the other hand, you have a DC who has had 8 seasons with the team with many different personnel and players, and had 16 playoff games, an entire season's worth of a sample, and the song and dance is the same every January. Either a pounding, or a late meltdown. 27 PPG allowed on average in all playoff games over 8 season with a lot of different players. Playoff losses of 51, 45, 44, and 37 points allowed.

This is not an anamoly. This is a very well established pattern.

The offense sucked ALL OF LAST SEASON and for a large part of this season! Anomaly? If anything, the offense playing well turned out to be the anomaly.

I also like how you point out the combination of players that Capers has had to deal with but then stop following that logic; large amounts of turnover wouldn't really be happening if there were good players or injuries weren't an issue. I CAN say that Capers' defense was the only reason the Packers made the playoffs last season, but that doesn't count for anything other than upping the points per game stat you bring out. I get it, fire Capers and the Packers's defense will instantly improve because someone like Rex Ryan would have known how to cover Julio Jones with Marwin Evans and/or Gunter. Or a different DC would have managed to get the defense to intercept SEVEN passes in the NFCCG against Seattle and not just four. Defensive personnel is the main culprit on this team. This season the team had no real pass rush threat (Capers probably told TT he didn't want one?) and no cover corners (Capers probably boxed with Shields every week to keep him out); that's not any part of the recipe for a good defense.

 

[adambr2]

The offense sucked ALL OF LAST SEASON and for a large part of this season! Anomaly? If anything, the offense playing well turned out to be the anomaly.

I also like how you point out the combination of players that Capers has had to deal with but then stop following that logic; large amounts of turnover wouldn't really be happening if there were good players or injuries weren't an issue. I CAN say that Capers' defense was the only reason the Packers made the playoffs last season, but that doesn't count for anything other than upping the points per game stat you bring out. I get it, fire Capers and the Packers's defense will instantly improve because someone like Rex Ryan would have known how to cover Julio Jones with Marwin Evans and/or Gunter. Or a different DC would have managed to get the defense to intercept SEVEN passes in the NFCCG against Seattle and not just four. Defensive personnel is the main culprit on this team. This season the team had no real pass rush threat (Capers probably told TT he didn't want one?) and no cover corners (Capers probably boxed with Shields every week to keep him out); that's not any part of the recipe for a good defense.

Uh, over an 8 year period there's going to be plenty of turn over, whether a unit is good or not. I don't see Greg Jennings, Donald Driver or Brandon Jackson running around anymore. The point is that Capers' playoff failures have been well documented with many different players.

It's hard to even know how to respond about you saying the good offense was the anamoly. We have been built on a good O for Rodgers' entire career. He had an off year last year as did the offense. That is pretty much unanimous thinking. I don't think you'll find too many fans who will tell you with a straight face that they expected another bottom 10 performance out of the offense this year.

I also have to laugh anytime someone brings up the 4 INTs in the Seattle NFCCG, as that falls into the biggest possible 'who cares?' category if you can perform well for 55 minutes and then spend the last 5 minutes having one of the biggest late game defensive meltdowns in NFL history. Kind of makes those 4 INTs an afterthought.

Amazing that Perry can have a breakout year, Matthews is one of the better pass rushing OLBs in recent memory here, and we go out and sign Peppers solely for his pass rushing ability, not to mention sink $40M+ into Daniels, and you still complain that poor Dom just hasn't been given any pass rushers to work with.

Look, TT is a problem too, the early round picks have not been good enough on D. But to act like Dom has just been given a D full of UDFAs every season is just more excuses. There's talent on the D, and there's some areas of much less talent, but either way, he hasn't gotten the most out of either.

 

[Poppa San]

Since Sunday evening, this thread has a accumulated 232 post, nearly 13% of the total.

I'm proud of you guys.

Good thing I changed the oil and checked the tires. Going to get a lot more miles on it before this baby is parked again.

 

[Poppa San]

And if he's hired? Will some admit they were wrong? Or does evidence only count one way?

Jeff Fischer kept getting hired as HC as well as Rex Ryan and their teams haven't done squat in over a decade. Just because another team hires you doesn't mean you are good at the moment. It means you were good once and the team hopes to recapture some of that.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[HardRightEdge]

Good thing I changed the oil and checked the tires. Going to get a lot more miles on it before this baby is parked again.

Road trip!

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[HardRightEdge]

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

I did in fact laugh out loud at that.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Let's see, just last season he had a very good defense that managed to carry the Packers to the playoffs despite the offense being one of the worst in the NFL. Despite the "alternative facts" Capers has really only had three seasons with below-average defenses; this past season (I think we can largely agree that injuries were a big part of that), 2013 and 2011. Other than that his defenses have been above average (using Football Outsiders DVOA for these since they actually adjust for strength of opponent which gets conveniently ignored quite a bit).

Too much blame gets put on him for the loss in Seattle (somehow the defense forced Russell Wilson into his worst ever game and yet Capers was bad). Realistically, people want to be able to blame ONE person for the problems because it's far easier to replace one guy than to admit the defensive personnel is not good (takes a lot longer to get better players). It's also easier to just say things like "next man up!" or "don't only rush three guys!" or "stop playing zone!" and believe that the alternatives would obviously be better and that Capers is stupid for not realizing what he called was a terrible idea. Yes, the Packers have given up a ton of points in their losses in the playoffs but that's got some bias in it considering that the team is only playing the best teams when in the playoffs; you would expect to give up more points in the playoffs because you're not playing the Bills/Browns/Bears/etc.

Probably the biggest legit criticism of Capers is that he has a complex defense that takes time to learn and that doesn't mesh well with Thompson's team-building philosophy. When the Packers won the Super Bowl on the back of a great defense it was because Capers had vets like Woodson, Jenkins, Williams, etc.; not a bunch of rookie and second year guys. Now, I'm not sure how to fix that problem, simple defenses in the NFL will get destroyed unless you have a best in the league safety like Earl Thomas (looked what happened to the Seahawks without him).

Now, if the Packers cut ties with Capers I completely understand, someone has to take the fall for a poor performance. However, Peter Pan or Merlin aren't available to perform some magic trick that would allow Gunter and Brice to be able to cover Julio Jones or Joe Thomas to cover Freeman or MARWIN freakin' EVANS to cover anyone (maybe he turns into something down the road but that guy is not ready for the NFL yet). The DC isn't the main issue with the team, defensive personnel and an offense that kept hanging the defense out to dry were the main issues against the Falcons.

I guess your definition and my definition of "very good" are...very different. About the only year I would say Dom had a "very good" defense was 2010. This is just talking about the regular season too, because if you want to talk about his defenses in the post season or against top ranked offenses, then the numbers really get skewed against him.

I'm pretty convinced if all you are looking for is average to below average defenses, than Dom is your man.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I did in fact laugh out loud at that.

No more searching for memes, I learned how to make my own last week Yeah, I am finally catching up with technology.

 

[HardRightEdge]

No more searching for memes, I learned how to make my own last week Yeah, I am finally catching up with technology.

That was a pokerbrat original!? I am humbled in your craftsy presence.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That was a pokerbrat original!? I am humbled in your craftsy presence.

If I say yes, do I open myself up for lawsuits?

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[HardRightEdge]

I guess your definition and my definition of "very good" are...very different. About the only year I would say Dom had a "very good" defense was 2010. This is just talking about the regular season too, because if you want to talk about his defenses in the post season or against top ranked offenses, then the numbers really get skewed against him.

I'm pretty convinced if all you are looking for is average to below average defenses, than Dom is your man.

The defensive performance in last 5 minutes of play against Seattle in the 2014 playoffs was inexcusable.

I do not use the term "inexcusable" lightly. I mean it literally as in "the basis for termination". I've seen nothing to change my mind since.

 

[HardRightEdge]

If I say yes, do I open myself up for lawsuits?

I couldn't find an appropriate emoticon to express, "let's say not 'cause who would be the wiser?"

 

[longtimefan]

http://www.billmichaelssports.com/reaction-to-kevin-greenes-comments-and-the-football-frenzy/

11 minutes in?

Greene replied to the Packers Def and Dom..

Dom is consistent, and do what ur told to do..

Every Def part is clear..

If players did their job... It would be top 5 Def every year.

Keep to ur plan, keep believing in the scheme..

Do ur job

* I been saying that like crazy this year

Here it is

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Uh, over an 8 year period there's going to be plenty of turn over, whether a unit is good or not. I don't see Greg Jennings, Donald Driver or Brandon Jackson running around anymore. The point is that Capers' playoff failures have been well documented with many different players.

It's hard to even know how to respond about you saying the good offense was the anamoly. We have been built on a good O for Rodgers' entire career. He had an off year last year as did the offense. That is pretty much unanimous thinking. I don't think you'll find too many fans who will tell you with a straight face that they expected another bottom 10 performance out of the offense this year.

I also have to laugh anytime someone brings up the 4 INTs in the Seattle NFCCG, as that falls into the biggest possible 'who cares?' category if you can perform well for 55 minutes and then spend the last 5 minutes having one of the biggest late game defensive meltdowns in NFL history. Kind of makes those 4 INTs an afterthought.

Amazing that Perry can have a breakout year, Matthews is one of the better pass rushing OLBs in recent memory here, and we go out and sign Peppers solely for his pass rushing ability, not to mention sink $40M+ into Daniels, and you still complain that poor Dom just hasn't been given any pass rushers to work with.

Look, TT is a problem too, the early round picks have not been good enough on D. But to act like Dom has just been given a D full of UDFAs every season is just more excuses. There's talent on the D, and there's some areas of much less talent, but either way, he hasn't gotten the most out of either.

I love that attitude....55 minutes don't count! Do they reset the scoreboard? Because I'm sure the points from the first 55 minutes count.

And are you really claiming that matthews is still one of the better pass rushing OLBs in recent memory? That was three years ago! He's played ILB the past two years and was a shell this year! Are you seriously arguing that the defensive talent was good this year? Your points are vehement but nonsensical.

MM had an off year last year? What about the fact that he just no longer had guys that were so talented they could win with talent and didn't need scheme to help? Then, when Nelson got hurt and Lacy got fat his team suddenly needed scheme and he couldn't provide it?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I guess your definition and my definition of "very good" are...very different. About the only year I would say Dom had a "very good" defense was 2010. This is just talking about the regular season too, because if you want to talk about his defenses in the post season or against top ranked offenses, then the numbers really get skewed against him.

I'm pretty convinced if all you are looking for is average to below average defenses, than Dom is your man.

Ohhhh...so Dom's defense last season should have been a little worse so the Packers would miss the playoffs and that would have been better I guess? My definitions of "very good" are based in season long performance, not one game out of 17 each year.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Ohhhh...so Dom's defense last season should have been a little worse so the Packers would miss the playoffs and that would have been better I guess? My definitions of "very good" are based in season long performance, not one game out of 17 each year.

Just curious, how are you drawing the conclusion that the Packers defense was very good in 2015? I have been looking at the team defensive stats for the last 8 years and 2010 is the only season that I find the Packers Defense ranked in the top 10 of just about anything defensively. Again, I think your definition of very good and mine are much different. To me very good would be top 10.

 

[Dantés]

Just curious, how are you drawing the conclusion that the Packers defense was very good in 2015? I have been looking at the team defensive stats for the last 8 years and 2010 is the only season that I find the Packers Defense ranked in the top 10 of just about anything defensively. Again, I think your definition of very good and mine are much different. To me very good would be top 10.

I don't think that they were "very good" but they were 15th in yards and, more importantly, 12th in points. Addittionally, their 16 INT's was good for 9th and their 43 sacks was tied for 7th. So they were above average in a lot of categories.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't think that they were "very good" but they were 15th in yards and, more importantly, 12th in points. Addittionally, their 16 INT's was good for 9th and their 43 sacks was tied for 7th. So they were above average in a lot of categories.

The one catagory they haven't been "above average" in since 2010 is pts. allowed/game. Which to me ultimately is the one stat that holds a lot of weight in determining how good your defense is.

Average to below average is probably not going to win you many Super Bowls though. Which is my point. People keep talking about this team as a "failure" because they have won 1 SB with AR in 2010, the year the Defense was top 10. How many times do we take a run at the SB and watch an average or below average defense cost us that goal?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Just curious, how are you drawing the conclusion that the Packers defense was very good in 2015? I have been looking at the team defensive stats for the last 8 years and 2010 is the only season that I find the Packers Defense ranked in the top 10 of just about anything defensively. Again, I think your definition of very good and mine are much different. To me very good would be top 10.

As I pointed out, go look at Football Outsiders where they adjust for opponent. You can look at team defense rankings b year.

However, I give up, I've been convinced. Capers is the main problem. A good coordinator would have managed to create a good defense from a team with HUGE defensive personnel issues (no corners worth anything, no impact linebackers than can be counted on the be healthy and only ONE legit dlineman worth a starting job). Scheme was the problem though; Capers blitzed too much, except for the times when he didn't blitz enough. I'm sure the next guy will have all the answers...