Fire Capers

[GBkrzygrl]

Nope. Not interested. Too much about him.

 

[PackerFanLV]

I fully expect the Packers to win on Sunday night and advance to the playoffs. However, if Washington wins and the Packers lose a game where the defense doesn't look particularly good, ending the season, Dom Capers may have coached his last game for the Packers.

I agree with you, but I think even if packers win the SB there is a change needed on Defense and Special Teams. I like dom I think his time is up also Zook he needs to see the door.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

First of all 'gave us many good years' is not really a consideration for whether or not to retain a guy. This is a results oriented business, not a social club. Brett Favre gave us many more good years. When it's time to move on, it's time to move on.

Secondly, those of us who want Capers to go base it primarily on 2 things:

1) Little to no improvement over the last 6 years. This isn't a knee jerk reaction. Capers has had many years, and many different personnel to build this defense with. Improvement has been sporadic, but never permanent. The defense has performed well in spurts, then atrocious in spurts, bringing me to the second thing :

2) Catastrophic playoff meltdowns. The OT misplay last year, the inexplicable collapse in Seattle after a dominating defensive performance for 55 minutes, a complete game plan failure against Colin Kaepernick, and a 51 point embarrassment in Arizona. It only took one 4th and 26 to cost Ed Donatell his job. Capers has had several such incidents and has survived them all.

Finally, sacks and INTs are great but they are not a good primary indicator of defensive success . Turnovers come and go from year to year , and sacks often come in spurts. If your entire defensive success is dependent on whether or not you get sacks and INTs and you run into a team in the playoffs with a good line and a QB that doesn't turn the ball over , (i.e, Dallas), you are going to be in serious trouble .

Does actual performance come into play or did everyone just decide that Capers was awful in 2011 &2012? Because point #1 above is factually incorrect since just last season the Packer's defense was #12 in scoring, #9 overall according to Football Outsiders and, most importantly, was the only part of the team that actually kept the Packers in playoff contention!

Point #2 is a really weird narrative that just won't go away. The playoff "meltdown" in 2014 from the defense featured the packer's defense forcing Russell Wilson into his worst game as a pro in Seattle! How exactly does that qualify as a "meltdown"? I think the bigger issue is that MM cost the packers that season when he, for some reason, called a game against the Bills in which Rodgers had his worst day as a pro, Lacy was averaging over 6 yards per carry and yet MM called 42 passes and let Lacy run the ball a whopping 15 times!!!! Packers win that game (which they could EASILY have done with a competent coach calling the plays) and that championship game is in Lambeau! The game against the 49ers was embarassing but an actual analysis of the game shows that the Packers actually played the most commonly used defense against the read-option, unfortunately Raji was pushed around like a toddler and Matthews inexcplicably started doing ballet moves in the middle of plays.

Is Capers perfect? Nope. But he's done more with the talent given to him than MM has done with the talent he has and I very rarely hear people call for MM's job; must be nice to have the best QB in the NFL on your side of the ball.

 

[adambr2]

#1, I was clear on the first point that improvement has never been maintained. It shows up periodically, then we regress. We are back to the 20th ranked D this year , that was my point. Our improvement doesn't sustain.

#2, You cannot actually be serious about asking how the Seattle game qualifies as a 'meltdown'. It does not matter what the D made Russell do for 55 minutes if they can't do 60, they did not finish the game. They caved in a monumental way. Also the offense did nothing but try to run Lacy in the last 5 minutes, to no avail. The defense still had numerous chances to get off the field.

I literally cannot believe that the defense giving up 200+ yards and 21 points in the last 6 minutes of the NFC Championship requires an explanation of how that is a 'meltdown.' Look if you want to make your case of why Capers should stay then sure, I can totally respect that, I just disagree. But there's absolutely no denying that Capers' led defenses have had some catastrophic playoff outings during his time here.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Which is exactly why I included the comment "...so while in hind-sight there were probably better picks, they weren't complete reaches."

We can have 20/20 hindsight about EVERY draft pick, but my main point was that none of those players were horrible reaches.

A lot of posters were advocating for the Packers to select Jones before the draft. That's not using hindsight to question taking Clark instead of him.

Fire Capers? ? You dont fire Dom Capers. You let him retire. He has gave the Packers many good years imo. His defense is #1 in sacks and interceptions amongst ALL the playoff teams this year. Thats a fact. Go look it up.
Capers stays till he is done imo. He is getting old. It won't be much longer anyway. A title this year and he retires for sure imo.
I posted this team defense link in another thread but here it is again. Capers defense is #1 amongst playoff teams in the two key defensive stats that I care about. Sacks and Int.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/defense/sort/interceptions

Unfortunately Capers defenses haven't been within the top 10 in points allowed since the 2010 season. Therefore his units haven't been good for six years running.

The game against the 49ers was embarassing but an actual analysis of the game shows that the Packers actually played the most commonly used defense against the read-option, unfortunately Raji was pushed around like a toddler and Matthews inexcplicably started doing ballet moves in the middle of plays.

The Packers were completely unprepared for the Niners read option offense entering the 2012 playoff game and were completely dominated allowing 45 points. Capers was lucky not getting fired on the flight back to Green Bay.

 

[Mondio]

I don't remember a lot of Jones talk. I remember a lot of A'shawn, Reed, Ragland and Jack however.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don't remember a lot of Jones talk. I remember a lot of A'shawn, Reed, Ragland and Jack however.

I advocated for the Packers to pick Jones in several posts before the draft although I would have preferred to select him in the second round.

 

[Mondio]

You may have, just stating that guys like A'shawn, Reed and especially Ragland and Jack were the ones brought up easily 20 to 1 to any other possible name in the draft. I don't consider anybody here an expert or better than Ted Thompson and those 2 names, even compared to Clark who I think is playing better and will continue to do so, proves it

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You may have, just stating that guys like A'shawn, Reed and especially Ragland and Jack were the ones brought up easily 20 to 1 to any other possible name in the draft. I don't consider anybody here an expert or better than Ted Thompson and those 2 names, even compared to Clark who I think is playing better and will continue to do so, proves it

PFF has Myles Jack (72.4) with a higher grade than Clark (68.0). Especially in coverage he would have been a huge upgrade over every inside linebacker currently on the Packers roster. It's too early to make a final evaluation about any of this year's draft picks though.

BTW I'm well aware of not having even close to as much knowledge as Thompson, nevertheless it's fun talking about it.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The Packers were completely unprepared for the Niners read option offense entering the 2012 playoff game and were completely dominated allowing 45 points. Capers was lucky not getting fired on the flight back to Green Bay.

Again, go read an actual analysis and you'll see that the defensive gameplan was one that is commonly used against the read-option...the PLAYERS were dominated.

Or was Capers supposed to stand behind Raji and help him stand his ground?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Again, go read an actual analysis and you'll see that the defensive gameplan was one that is commonly used against the read-option...the PLAYERS were dominated.

Can you provide a link to a credible source providing some evodence for your claim??? The Packers defensive coaches spent sone time with a college team trying to figure out the read option during the offseason after the 2012 season therefore I highly doubt they had any clue on how to defend it.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Can you provide a link to a credible source providing some evodence for your claim??? The Packers defensive coaches spent sone time with a college team trying to figure out the read option during the offseason after the 2012 season therefore I highly doubt they had any clue on how to defend it.

Sure, I've provided this link before but, as usual, it will simply get ignored because it doesn't fit the easy excuse of the coach being bad (I'm not trying to absolve Capers of blame here but fans need to point more to the players than the coaches). The author notes that the Packer's defense was playing gap exchange, the most popular adjustment to stop the traditional zone read.

Quote from the article:

"Before we get to San Francisco’s scheme, Kaepernick, and all that other fun stuff, we have to talk about the 49ers offensive line: they kicked the ***** of Green Bay’s front seven."

"A lot has been made of the Packers insistence on playing man coverage and allowing Kaepernick to run free on the second level when he did decide to pull the ball down. The man coverage was obviously an issue, but the Green Bay rushers getting knocked out of their pass rush lanes was also a key to Kapernick's success.

There were a couple of plays when uncovered guards would help out an engaged offensive lineman and drive the defender three-to-five yards out of their lane."

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2013/word-muth-san-francisco-clinic

 

[longtimefan]

Sure, I've provided this link before but, as usual, it will simply get ignored because it doesn't fit the easy excuse of the coach being bad (I'm not trying to absolve Capers of blame here but fans need to point more to the players than the coaches). The author notes that the Packer's defense was playing gap exchange, the most popular adjustment to stop the traditional zone read.

Quote from the article: "Before we get to San Francisco’s scheme, Kaepernick, and all that other fun stuff, we have to talk about the 49ers offensive line: they kicked the ***** of Green Bay’s front seven."

"A lot has been made of the Packers insistence on playing man coverage and allowing Kaepernick to run free on the second level when he did decide to pull the ball down. The man coverage was obviously an issue, but the Green Bay rushers getting knocked out of their pass rush lanes was also a key to Kapernick's success.

There were a couple of plays when uncovered guards would help out an engaged offensive lineman and drive the defender three-to-five yards out of their lane."

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2013/word-muth-san-francisco-clinic

Can you quote the part from the article?

Our rules state any article has to be quoted..

Ty

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Can you quote the part from the article?

Our rules state any article has to be quoted..

Ty

My apologies, what do you mean by "quoted"? I did mention a couple of quotes from the article, are you referring specifically to the quote about the Packers playing gap exchange? Apologies for being obtuse on this, just want to make sure I'm not breaking any rules.

 

[PackerFanLV]

I saw an article I didn't know if it was worth a thread of its own but basically saying next year Wolf taking over for TT and Rex stepping in for Capers. http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2...on-considering-retirement-rex-ryan-dom-capers

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

I agree with you, but I think even if packers win the SB there is a change needed on Defense and Special Teams. I like dom I think his time is up also Zook he needs to see the door.

This is getting a bit hard to understand though. Seems like the same people who've been saying for years that Dom should get fired all the sudden started defending him at the midpoint this season after we lost to both the Redskins and Titans and started saying it was because he had no players to fit his scheme and injuries and all, yet now when this team is starting to win again the talk to let him go comes up again.

And I'm not Capers's spokesperson, hell even I myself wonder if his defensive schemes or philosophy have grown a bit stale this year.

I think what's tough is his results have been all over the map during these last 4 years (and his career in general), you'll see something bad happen that then just a few games later becomes forgotten by a big defensive performance. But my guess is MM and TT probably aren't contemplating making any changes there, barring the Lions hanging 40 plus on us and eliminating us this Sunday.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The Packers were completely unprepared for the Niners read option offense entering the 2012 playoff game and were completely dominated allowing 45 points. Capers was lucky not getting fired on the flight back to Green Bay.

And to make matters worse, Woodson was "fired" for complaining in the press that no adjustments were made at halftime.

By "fired" I mean that no offer of a reduced contract was made, something Woodson would have been amenable to, thereby ushering in the M.D. Jennings era. Sheesh.

 

[PackerFanLV]

This is getting a bit hard to understand though. Seems like the same people who've been saying for years that Dom should get fired all the sudden started defending him at the midpoint this season after we lost to both the Redskins and Titans and started saying it was because he had no players to fit his scheme and injuries and all, yet now when this team is starting to win again the talk to let him go comes up again.

And I'm not Capers's spokesperson, hell even I myself wonder if his defensive schemes or philosophy have grown a bit stale this year.

I think what's tough is his results have been all over the map during these last 4 years (and his career in general), you'll see something bad happen that then just a few games later becomes forgotten by a big defensive performance. But my guess is MM and TT probably aren't contemplating making any changes there, barring the Lions hanging 40 plus on us and eliminating us this Sunday.

I agree, I was a big capers supporter for years defending him, I dont think hes a bad coach but seeing the same D over and over getting knocked out the playoffs a couple years under his coaching gets tiring rather its the talent drafted or not. I think he has some what of a say so when it comes draft day also knowing been in greenbay for 8 years.

 

[red4tribe]

It seems as though, throughout Capers' career, that opposing offenses figure him out after a few years. He often has success initially after entering an organization, before regressing over time. Look at these numbers-

1995 with Carolina- #7 defense in yards, #8 in points
1996 with Carolina- #10 and #2
1997 with Carolina- #15 and #13
1998 with Carolina- #30 and #27

1999 with Jacksonville- #4 and #1
2000 with Jacksonville- #12 and #16

2002 with Houston- #12 and #16
2005 with Houston- # 31 and #32

2006 with Miami- #4 and #5
2007 with Miami- #23 and #30

2009 with Green Bay- #2 and #7
2010 with Green Bay- #5 and #2
2011 with Green Bay- #32 and #19

And obviously this trend continues, the defense has never gotten anywhere near back to its peak in 2009 and 2010 the last five years.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CapeDo0.htm

 

[Carl]

A lot of posters were advocating for the Packers to select Jones before the draft. That's not using hindsight to question taking Clark instead of him.



Unfortunately Capers defenses haven't been within the top 10 in points allowed since the 2010 season. Therefore his units haven't been good for six years running.



The Packers were completely unprepared for the Niners read option offense entering the 2012 playoff game and were completely dominated allowing 45 points. Capers was lucky not getting fired on the flight back to Green Bay.

Regarding defending the read option, there isn't much to it. The OLB has to take the QB and not bite on a handoff.

Walden and other OLB that game were fooled over and over again.

 

[adambr2]

Regarding defending the read option, there isn't much to it. The OLB has to take the QB and not bite on a handoff.

Walden and other OLB that game were fooled over and over again.

Because they were not prepared for how much of it they saw.

Seriously, if someone can't look at this game and consider it a coaching failure , there is no game you can consider a defensive coaching failure.

Yes, Walden and the other OLBs failed, but it was glaringly obvious that Capers drastically underestimated how much the 49ers were prepared to use Kaepernick's legs as a weapon. And as HRE pointed out, even Woodson was critical of the failure to adjust in the 2nd half to the offensive game plan of the 49ers.

More evidence of this existed in the opening game of the next season - the Packers still lost, but they were much more prepared to stop the read option.

There will always be some debate as to the shared responsibility between coaches and players but it couldn't be more obvious that the playoff game against the 49ers certainly wasn't Capers' proudest coaching moment.

 

[pacmaniac]

Capers is nuts.

"It was Capers’ defense in that Washington debacle that drew the hottest fire. It allowed 515 offensive yards. It looked bad. Capers said it wasn’t as bad as it looked. 'We had held them to about 230 yards for most of that game and then we gave up some big plays and got into that scramble mode where the wheels came off,' Capers said."

 

[Carl]

Because they were not prepared for how much of it they saw.

Seriously, if someone can't look at this game and consider it a coaching failure , there is no game you can consider a defensive coaching failure.

Yes, Walden and the other OLBs failed, but it was glaringly obvious that Capers drastically underestimated how much the 49ers were prepared to use Kaepernick's legs as a weapon. And as HRE pointed out, even Woodson was critical of the failure to adjust in the 2nd half to the offensive game plan of the 49ers.

More evidence of this existed in the opening game of the next season - the Packers still lost, but they were much more prepared to stop the read option.

There will always be some debate as to the shared responsibility between coaches and players but it couldn't be more obvious that the playoff game against the 49ers certainly wasn't Capers' proudest coaching moment.

I'll agree both coaches and players share blame.

The OLBs should not have been fooled over and over even if they hadn't seen much before the game since it's a simple concept.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Sure, I've provided this link before but, as usual, it will simply get ignored because it doesn't fit the easy excuse of the coach being bad (I'm not trying to absolve Capers of blame here but fans need to point more to the players than the coaches). The author notes that the Packer's defense was playing gap exchange, the most popular adjustment to stop the traditional zone read.

Quote from the article:


http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2013/word-muth-san-francisco-clinic

Here's all I need to read from the article you linked to that makes it pretty obvious Capers dud a terrible job of preparing for the read option:

But when Jim Harbaugh unleashes Colin Kaepernick on an unsuspecting public (or at least an unsuspecting Dom Capers), I feel that it requires at least 2000 words and a dozen pictures.

Capers is getting paid several millions to prepare the Packers defense for an upcoming game. Him not expecting the Niners to run a read option offense is inexcusable.

 

[gopkrs]

Not making adjustments is the worst crime imho