Fire Capers

[Pkrjones]

Since this thread was started back in 2012 TT has drafted 1st round defensive players:
Nick Perry, Datone Jones, Ha-Ha Clinton Dix, Damarious Randall, and Kenny Clark. Those players were added to existing 1st rounders: A.J. Hawk, B.J. Raji, Clay Matthews III, & Julius Peppers.

We can 2nd-guess the quality of those picks all we want, but Capers has been given talent and 5 years running is still the focal-point of the team's weakness. Injuries always factor in to some degree, but the draft picks have been generously used on defensive talent, and still it's the weak area.

 

[bigbubbatd]

The talent isn't great on this defense but it isn't terrible either. The problem seems to be development in some areas - regression at corner for Randall and Rollins, injuries in others - shields, Perry/Matthews who can't seem to get healthy at the same time, lack of talent in a couple spots - d line and ilb come to mind, and then overall scheme.

One thing I can't stand about capers scheme is he always seems so dependent on turnovers. They are winning right now with getting turnovers but will those come in the playoffs? Not always so you need to get stops. I love the turnovers but you can depend on them.

I think to start the year there seemed to be enough talent in spots like the secondary and Olb. Ilb and d line where a little scarier. Oddly enough ilb has solidified some and d line has held up fairly well. The secondary because of injury, regression and maybe scheme has been awful.

 

[Mondio]

The talent isn't great on this defense but it isn't terrible either. The problem seems to be development in some areas - regression at corner for Randall and Rollins, injuries in others - shields, Perry/Matthews who can't seem to get healthy at the same time, lack of talent in a couple spots - d line and ilb come to mind, and then overall scheme.

One thing I can't stand about capers scheme is he always seems so dependent on turnovers. They are winning right now with getting turnovers but will those come in the playoffs? Not always so you need to get stops. I love the turnovers but you can depend on them.

I think to start the year there seemed to be enough talent in spots like the secondary and Olb. Ilb and d line where a little scarier. Oddly enough ilb has solidified some and d line has held up fairly well. The secondary because of injury, regression and maybe scheme has been awful.

It is dependent on Turnovers. Was my biggest gripe, even when we were "good". If we didn't get a turnover, it seemed the other team was scoring at least a FG. It relies on pressure on the QB and lately it's been hard to come by and anybody with a decent Oline is pretty much able to stop what we call our pass rush. But for much of the year we were in a steady rotation at OLB and ILB not to mention the injury situation we had at DB. Not being able to have Perry and Matthews healthy and both coming at the same time consistently has hurt this defense, along with all sorts of other things.

The good news is, they don't need to be dominating. They do need our offense to do what they're capable of, and I think they can do enough, but I'm not holding my breath on having a smothering defense at any point this year. They're getting healthier, but we have to win this next game to get any more so I don't want to get ahead of myself.

Like all teams in the league, we need to win on our strengths.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Since this thread was started back in 2012 TT has drafted 1st round defensive players:
Nick Perry, Datone Jones, Ha-Ha Clinton Dix, Damarious Randall, and Kenny Clark. Those players were added to existing 1st rounders: A.J. Hawk, B.J. Raji, Clay Matthews III, & Julius Peppers.

We can 2nd-guess the quality of those picks all we want, but Capers has been given talent and 5 years running is still the focal-point of the team's weakness. Injuries always factor in to some degree, but the draft picks have been generously used on defensive talent, and still it's the weak area.

You say, "we can second guess the quality but..." the rest of what you say is rendered moot if that first question is a good question to ask. The guys drafted in the first round were not worth first round picks (outside of HaHa). Teams have to actually put players on the field, not a card that says "talent equivalent to a first rounder". The drafts have been generous to the defense on QUANTITY...unfortunately it's QUALITY that matters in the NFL.

Out of all the players you listed, only Matthews and HaHa have actually lived up to first round billing (Peppers was signed as a free-agent and has been very helpful). Once a guy starts playing in the NFL, where they were drafted doesn't matter, all that matters is if they're any good.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The talent isn't great on this defense but it isn't terrible either. The problem seems to be development in some areas - regression at corner for Randall and Rollins, injuries in others - shields, Perry/Matthews who can't seem to get healthy at the same time, lack of talent in a couple spots - d line and ilb come to mind, and then overall scheme.

One thing I can't stand about capers scheme is he always seems so dependent on turnovers. They are winning right now with getting turnovers but will those come in the playoffs? Not always so you need to get stops. I love the turnovers but you can depend on them.

I think to start the year there seemed to be enough talent in spots like the secondary and Olb. Ilb and d line where a little scarier. Oddly enough ilb has solidified some and d line has held up fairly well. The secondary because of injury, regression and maybe scheme has been awful.

You say, "we can second guess the quality but..." the rest of what you say is rendered moot if that first question is a good question to ask. The guys drafted in the first round were not worth first round picks (outside of HaHa). Teams have to actually put players on the field, not a card that says "talent equivalent to a first rounder". The drafts have been generous to the defense on QUANTITY...unfortunately it's QUALITY that matters in the NFL.

Out of all the players you listed, only Matthews and HaHa have actually lived up to first round billing (Peppers was signed as a free-agent and has been very helpful). Once a guy starts playing in the NFL, where they were drafted doesn't matter, all that matters is if they're any good.

This is the whole chicken-egg argument that I have been trying to solve in my own head. There is no denying that TT has been putting more draft resource into the defense for quite awhile now and the defense seems to still be struggling. So is this TT and the Packer scouts not knowing what they are doing in regards to evaluating defensive talent or is it Dom not knowing how to coach young talent?

I have come to the conclusion that it is a "chicken omelette" and their is some blame on both guys. TT and his scouts are not hitting on enough guys, especially early round picks and Dom is struggling to teach his defensive scheme with some of them.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

This is the whole chicken-egg argument that I have been trying to solve in my own head. There is no denying that TT has been putting more draft resource into the defense for quite awhile now and the defense seems to still be struggling. So is this TT and the Packer scouts not knowing what they are doing in regards to evaluating defensive talent or is it Dom not knowing how to coach young talent?

I have come to the conclusion that it is a "chicken omelette" and their is some blame on both guys. TT and his scouts are not hitting on enough guys, especially early round picks and Dom is struggling to teach his defensive scheme with some of them.

Easy answer, which players that Dom hasn't used correctly have gone on to do well elsewhere? I can point to plenty of lower-round guys that Dom has done a good job with (Shields, Daniels, Burnett, Bishop, heck, he fielded a serviceable defense with Walden starting at OLB).

Fact is that the Packers, for the past few years, have been far more miss than hit when it comes to drafting defensive players.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Easy answer, which players that Dom hasn't used correctly have gone on to do well elsewhere? I can point to plenty of lower-round guys that Dom has done a good job with (Shields, Daniels, Burnett, Bishop, heck, he fielded a serviceable defense with Walden starting at OLB).

Fact is that the Packers, for the past few years, have been far more miss than hit when it comes to drafting defensive players.

Only one that I can think of off the top of my head is Hayward.

I agree with you on the misses and have been leaning more blame towards TT and scouts not doing a good job getting Dom talent. There is very little doubt in my mind that TT has whiffed or over valued players like Worthy, Thornton, Harrell, Pat Lee, Mike Neal, Datone Jones.

"Done a good job with" is subjective though. Shields and Daniels for sure. How can we be so sure about the other players that Dom and his staff have coached? Have they gotten the most they can out of them or coached those players right out of the NFL during their time in GB?

 

[Pkrjones]

You say, "we can second guess the quality but..." the rest of what you say is rendered moot if that first question is a good question to ask. The guys drafted in the first round were not worth first round picks (outside of HaHa). Teams have to actually put players on the field, not a card that says "talent equivalent to a first rounder". The drafts have been generous to the defense on QUANTITY...unfortunately it's QUALITY that matters in the NFL...

Ha-ha is the only recent 1st rounder with a true 1st-round-grade of that draft. Perry, Jones, & Clark were all late 1st/mid-2nd round guys and Randall was a 2nd round grade guy. Also, there usually are NOT 32 guys in each draft with a 1st-round grade... and this past draft I believe the "cut-off" was 15 guys with a 1st-round grade. TT knew there was a lack of depth on the DL (Raji "retired" and Pennel suspended) so opted for Clark over Ragland (or other ILB), right or wrong Clark was thought to be a pro-ready DL.

TT drafted these late-first rounders approximately where they were predicted to go, so while in hind-sight there were probably better picks, they weren't complete reaches. It's the coaching staff's job to teach/coach them into viable contrubutors. Not absolving TT, but there's a reason why we consistently get "serviceable" instead of "impact player".

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Only one that I can think of off the top of my head is Hayward.

I agree with you on the misses and have been leaning more blame towards TT and scouts not doing a good job getting Dom talent. There is very little doubt in my mind that TT has whiffed or over valued players like Worthy, Thornton, Harrell, Pat Lee, Mike Neal, Datone Jones.

"Done a good job with" is subjective though. Shields and Daniels for sure. How can we be so sure about the other players that Dom and his staff have coached? Have they gotten the most they can out of them or coached those players right out of the NFL during their time in GB?

Hayward, as a rookie, was one of the best corners in the NFL with Capers and then spent the rest of his time in Green Bay being hurt. There's no way anyone could say that Capers didn't use Hawyard correctly.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Really? O.K., here's the depth charts and lets compare:

Packer DL = Daniels, Guion, Lowry, Clark, Ringo (Pennel)
Bears DL = Hicks, Goldman, Unrein, Washington, Wilson, Bullard

As for the starters I'll take Daniels over Hicks. Goldman has missed ten games, so, I'll take Guion. Lowry is about even with Unrein or Bullard. Clark is also better than Washington or Wilson. Packers have more talent. (If Goldman could ever stay healthy, it might be different, but, he can't).

Packers OLB = Matthews, Perry, Peppers, Jones, Elliot, Fackrell
Bears OLB = McPhee, Floyd, Young, Acho, Houston

I'll say Matthews is better than McPhee. Perry has 10 sacks, Floyd has 7, Perry is better as of right now. Perry can also set an edge vs. the run, Floyd just can't right now, too skinny. Peppers and Young both have 7.5 sacks, call it a wash. I'll take Jones, Elliot and Fackrell (4 sacks combined) over the Bears Acho and Houston (1 sack combined). Packers have more talent at OLB.

Packers ILB = Ryan, Martinez, Thomas, Tripp
Bears ILB = Freeman, Trevathon, Jones, Kwiatkoski

Trevathon on IR, Freeman suspended four games. With those two the Bears have more talent, so, I'll give you that one, even though on the field last week the Packers had the better ILB's. Bears have more talent at ILB when healthy/not suspended.

Packers Secondary = Burnett, Dix, Randall, Rollins, Gunter, Hyde, Brice, Dorleant, Hawkins, Evans
Bears Secondary = Quartey, Amos, Porter, Callahan, Leblanc, McManis, Bausby, Hall, Bush, Prosinski

This isn't even close. Packers have a Pro Bowler in Dix at safety, plus Burnett and some solid backups, the Bears have nothing. As for CB, Porter is better than Randall, but, after that I'll take Gunter, Hyde, Rollins and Dorleant over the Bears CFL players.

Packers have 16 INT's and 78 PD. Bears have 7 INT's, 63 PD.

I stand by my opinion that Fangio has done more with less. I just don't see much talent on the Bears' defense, especially their downright horrible secondary, which actually manages to make the Packers DB's look elite by comparison.

I don't feel the need to further discuss about it, just one quick note though. There's no doubt the Packers secondary has struggled mightily and more than the Bears unit. While the numbers you posted seem to favor the Packers unit you ignored that they have given up 30 passing TDs compared to the Bears 19 and allowed a higher passer rating at 95.9.

TT drafted these late-first rounders approximately where they were predicted to go, so while in hind-sight there were probably better picks, they weren't complete reaches. It's the coaching staff's job to teach/coach them into viable contrubutors. Not absolving TT, but there's a reason why we consistently get "serviceable" instead of "impact player".

Chris Jones, who was drafted by the Chiefs in the second round, would have been a great pick and a huge upgrade over Clark.

 

[Packer Brother]

So Rex Ryan was just fired....great D coordinator....just saying....

 

[Pkrjones]

Chris Jones, who was drafted by the Chiefs in the second round, would have been a great pick and a huge upgrade over Clark.

Which is exactly why I included the comment "...so while in hind-sight there were probably better picks, they weren't complete reaches."

We can have 20/20 hindsight about EVERY draft pick, but my main point was that none of those players were horrible reaches.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

So Rex Ryan was just fired....great D coordinator....just saying....

http://totalpackers.com/2016/12/people-really-like-see-rex-ryan-green-bay/

 

[PackerDNA]

No thanks to the Ryan's and their circus.

 

[Sky King]

http://totalpackers.com/2016/12/people-really-like-see-rex-ryan-green-bay/

No thanks to Ryan. If ever there was a personality that seems like a bad fit for the McCarthy staff, this would be the guy. Too flamboyant and much too fond of being in the spotlight. Guys who go about their business quietly may be better suited to weave into the present coaching staff's fiber.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

I`d like to see a more aggressive defensive coach at Green Bay. Ego isn`t important to me if it gets results. JMHO

 

[NYPack]

So Rex Ryan was just fired....great D coordinator....just saying....

Former Jets fan here. Rex was a great defensive coordinator prior to becoming a head coach. He took the Jets defense and turned them into a top D immediately while being a head coach. He did have a boat load of talent when in Baltimore and Revis in his prime when his defenses were great in NY. When he went to Buffalo he inherited a top 5 defense. That defense was no where near top 5 this year.

I think there's a good chance Rex didn't have the time as a head coach to adjust to how the league adjusted to his defense and that he could regain his dominance as a DC if he were allowed to focus on it. It's also possible he doesn't have anymore tricks up his sleeve and the game has passed him by.

The guy is a blowhard with a very strong personality. Not sure how MM would get along with him or be able to reign him in. Maybe being fired twice in three years has actually instilled some humility in him, but I have my doubts!

I'd love to see what he could do with some of the talent the Packers have. If he could put a top 5 defense out there with Aaron Rodgers on the other side it could create a dominant team. Interesting thought.

 

[Poppa San]

Off topic hijack for a question. How does one become a

Former Jets fan here.

They make you turn in your Namath Topp's card? You switched your allegiance to follow Rex?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Off topic hijack for a question. How does one become a
They make you turn in your Namath Topp's card? You switched your allegiance to follow Rex?

I turned my Namath card in after his drunken interview with Suzy Kolber during a MNF game.

 

[Bluegrass79]

Fire Capers? ? You dont fire Dom Capers. You let him retire. He has gave the Packers many good years imo. His defense is #1 in sacks and interceptions amongst ALL the playoff teams this year. Thats a fact. Go look it up.
Capers stays till he is done imo. He is getting old. It won't be much longer anyway. A title this year and he retires for sure imo.
I posted this team defense link in another thread but here it is again. Capers defense is #1 amongst playoff teams in the two key defensive stats that I care about. Sacks and Int.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/defense/sort/interceptions

 

[adambr2]

Fire Capers? ? You dont fire Dom Capers. You let him retire. He has gave the Packers many good years imo. His defense is #1 in sacks and interceptions amongst ALL the playoff teams this year. Thats a fact. Go look it up.
Capers stays till he is done imo. He is getting old. It won't be much longer anyway. A title this year and he retires for sure imo.
I posted this team defense link in another thread but here it is again. Capers defense is #1 amongst playoff teams in the two key defensive stats that I care about. Sacks and Int.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/defense/sort/interceptions

First of all 'gave us many good years' is not really a consideration for whether or not to retain a guy. This is a results oriented business, not a social club. Brett Favre gave us many more good years. When it's time to move on, it's time to move on.

Secondly, those of us who want Capers to go base it primarily on 2 things:

1) Little to no improvement over the last 6 years. This isn't a knee jerk reaction. Capers has had many years, and many different personnel to build this defense with. Improvement has been sporadic, but never permanent. The defense has performed well in spurts, then atrocious in spurts, bringing me to the second thing :

2) Catastrophic playoff meltdowns. The OT misplay last year, the inexplicable collapse in Seattle after a dominating defensive performance for 55 minutes, a complete game plan failure against Colin Kaepernick, and a 51 point embarrassment in Arizona. It only took one 4th and 26 to cost Ed Donatell his job. Capers has had several such incidents and has survived them all.

Finally, sacks and INTs are great but they are not a good primary indicator of defensive success . Turnovers come and go from year to year , and sacks often come in spurts. If your entire defensive success is dependent on whether or not you get sacks and INTs and you run into a team in the playoffs with a good line and a QB that doesn't turn the ball over , (i.e, Dallas), you are going to be in serious trouble .

 

[NYPack]

Off topic hijack for a question. How does one become a
They make you turn in your Namath Topp's card? You switched your allegiance to follow Rex?

lol - following Rex, now that's funny right there - I don't care who you are. Nah, I was quite happy when the Jets let Rex go. I believe he is a prime example of the Peter principle as we often see with great coordinators in the NFL. Unfortunately I'm too young to have been able to enjoy watching Namath, but old enough to have given the Jets 30 years as a fan. I gave up on them after week 9 of this year after deciding to give them 1 more year to show me something last year - explained in more detail in the how did you become a fan thread.

 

[Half Empty]

I think there's a good chance Rex didn't have the time as a head coach to adjust to how the league adjusted to his defense and that he could regain his dominance as a DC if he were allowed to focus on it. It's also possible he doesn't have anymore tricks up his sleeve and the game has passed him by.

Couldn't think how this part could have seamlessly blended in with the rest of the thread by replacing 'Rex' with 'Dom'.

 

[PackerFanLV]

I would love rex as the pack D coordinator. He will bring toughness for sure.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I fully expect the Packers to win on Sunday night and advance to the playoffs. However, if Washington wins and the Packers lose a game where the defense doesn't look particularly good, ending the season, Dom Capers may have coached his last game for the Packers.