Fire Capers

[HardRightEdge]

I fear Capers will get an injury get out of jail pass.

But the fact of the matter is that while defensive performance since 2010 has sometimes zigged up and sometimes zigged down, the overall trend has been steadily down. If we were to use a stock chart analogy, he's been trading below his 50 day moving average, and has now plummeted below the 200 day.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I fear Capers will get an injury get out of jail pass.

But the fact of the matter is that while defensive performance since 2010 has sometimes zigged up and sometimes zigged down, but the overall trend has been steadily down. If we were to use a stark chart analogy, he's been trading below his 50 day moving average, and has now plummeted below the 200 day.

If the Packers continue to lose and play as poorly as they have on one or both sides of the ball in each loss, I just don't see anyone getting a pass, including TT. Now that might be the hopeful side of me talking, but Murphy and the board are going to have to take a serious look at how this team has performed over the last few years and how they are "trending" now for the future. The past can save you, if circumstances beyond your control happen, but in this situation, I don't think injuries should give TT, MM or Capers a free pass for the last 2 years.

 

[PFanCan]

Good article by Florio and posted by our Bot....

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...to-get-everyones-attention-by-firing-someone/

While I don't see it happening (firings now) as well as replacing anyone will save this season, I do think firing a guy like Capers sends a message to present and future Packers coaches/GM's that if you don't do your job, you are gone.

I disagree with this article. Firing someone just for the sake of "getting everyone's attention" is silly. In my opinion, the players are not unmotivated. From my spot on the couch, it looks like they are all out there trying and giving it their all.

But...

1. They are not good enough to play in the NFL (or, at least at this point in their careers) (root problem: TT)
2. The routes that they are running, or the defensive scheme is not working (root problem: MM or DC)
3. Mental errors/Lack of preparation. (root problem: MM)

So, fire someone for the reasons above with the hope of finding someone better. Don't do it just to get attention.

 

[rodell330]

He's expecting to get pressure so that his corners don't have to worry about covering for 4 seconds. When all you have healthy is your Dline and outside linebackers, you do that a lot.

The problem was not the blitzes, the problem was that no one beat their man on the blitz and that gave Cousins 3 days to throw 50 yard bombs.

Exactly!!! No one was winning ... so you send both safeties and leave corners who've been burnt toast all night!! This comment was inregards to the last bomb they gave up. What he should have done was blitz Up the middle instead of allowing cousins to step up in a clean pocket and deliver a 58 yard bomb!! Matthews should've been in the middle. He's become worthless on the outside. Got handled by a career backup!

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Exactly!!! No one was winning ... so you send both safeties and leave corners who've been burnt toast all night!! This comment was inregards to the last bomb they gave up. What he should have done was blitz Up the middle instead of allowing cousins to step up in a clean pocket and deliver a 58 yard bomb!! Matthews should've been in the middle. He's become worthless on the outside. Got handled by a career backup!

Our blitzes for the most part were pathetic last night and as you said, usually from the outside and handled well by Washington, probably because they knew there coming. When you have a secondary playing like the Packer secondary and you are going to blitz, you better not only disguise it well, but get there! Sure, we are missing Ryan and our top 2 CB's, but that is no excuse for how poorly that defense played last night and I still put that on Capers.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I disagree with this article. Firing someone just for the sake of "getting everyone's attention" is silly. In my opinion, the players are not unmotivated. From my spot on the couch, it looks like they are all out there trying and giving it their all.

But...

1. They are not good enough to play in the NFL (or, at least at this point in their careers) (root problem: TT)
2. The routes that they are running, or the defensive scheme is not working (root problem: MM or DC)
3. Mental errors/Lack of preparation. (root problem: MM)

So, fire someone for the reasons above with the hope of finding someone better. Don't do it just to get attention.

The guys have been poorly schooled in zone defense. This was in evidence before the raft of injuries, before this season.

It's just more noticeable now with more reliance on it with lesser players.

 

[HardRightEdge]

If the Packers continue to lose and play as poorly as they have on one or both sides of the ball in each loss, I just don't see anyone getting a pass, including TT. Now that might be the hopeful side of me talking, but Murphy and the board are going to have to take a serious look at how this team has performed over the last few years and how they are "trending" now for the future. The past can save you, if circumstances beyond your control happen, but in this situation, I don't think injuries should give TT, MM or Capers a free pass for the last 2 years.

If by continue to lose and play poorly you mean 6 more 45 - 25 losses, there will certainly be plenty of h*ll to pay,

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If by continue to lose and play poorly you mean 6 more 45 - 25 losses, there will certainly be plenty of h*ll to pay,

Maybe not 6 more, but I see games where that could be quite possible. Philly, Seahawks, Lions and possibly even the Texans. I don't think the games with the Bears and Vikings will be quite as high scoring.

Unless things change, I also don't think the Packers will be favored to win in any of those games but the one against the Bears.

 

[OldSchool101]

Talent gets you nowhere if you aren't passionate about your profession. Passion comes both from within and from outward sources...in the NFL it is the job of a coach to instill passion within a player by motivating them. This defense plays like they do not care what the final score is and THAT is a coaching issue.

While Capers is snug up in a press box somewhere warming his pinky toes, sipping on a Pina Colada, shrinking in his chair and fixing his wig..his soldiers are taking live bullets in a gunfight. Whatever happened to the coaches rallying guys on the sideline. I don't even like Pete Carroll but at least he knows how to create energy.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

While Capers is snug up in a press box somewhere warming his pinky toes and sipping on a Pina Colada and shrinking in his chair... his soldiers are taking live bullets in a gunfight. Whatever happened to the coaches rallying guys on the sideline. I don't even like Pete Carroll but at least he knows how to create energy.

The tape for his toupee is not rated strong enough to hold up in outdoor conditions so he gets a pass

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[OldSchool101]

The tape for his toupee is not rated strong enough to hold up in outdoor conditions so he gets a pass

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

Oh. I forgot about the wind factor.
My bad

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree with a lot of posters that Capers doesn't deserve a pass but unfortunately he has been dealt several players not being talented enough to perform at the oro level by Thompson.

Exactly!!! No one was winning ... so you send both safeties and leave corners who've been burnt toast all night!! This comment was inregards to the last bomb they gave up. What he should have done was blitz Up the middle instead of allowing cousins to step up in a clean pocket and deliver a 58 yard bomb!! Matthews should've been in the middle. He's become worthless on the outside. Got handled by a career backup!

Capers didn't blitz both safeties on that play but Kentrell Brice being lined up at free safety mistead the play providing help over the top to Burnett covering Davis. At the time he realized Cousins was targeting Crowder he wasn't able to get there in time to break up the pass.

 

[Packerlifer]

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2016/11/21/packers-defense-has-no-answers-collapse/94105526/


http://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/p...hell-broke-loose-may-haunt-packers-dom-capers

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

I fear Capers will get an injury get out of jail pass.

But the fact of the matter is that while defensive performance since 2010 has sometimes zigged up and sometimes zigged down, the overall trend has been steadily down. If we were to use a stock chart analogy, he's been trading below his 50 day moving average, and has now plummeted below the 200 day.

Yup, although I'm starting to come around to the idea that Ted Thompson's stale GM philosophy and only picking from the Pac-12 conference ... well ok slight hyperbole but he does seem to favor that conference over others for some reason. Yeah it got us Rodgers and Matthews, but gotta diversify your portfolio a bit. I'm coming around to the idea that he's become stale as a GM, hence why the trickle down affect is coming to Capers and McCarthy.

I think Capers will still be gone once this year is over, possibly MM too, but I'm liking the idea of getting a new GM to get this ship righted come next year as well.

 

[Sky King]

"Next man up" sounds noble and is a nice sound bite but it only works in practice when the backups are actually capable of performing close to those whom they replace.* But when those backups, at best, possess marginal NFL talent then it is simply not realistic to expect those players to perform adequately as starters.

(*When starters - some of whom were early draft picks - have played for years on end more like flawed backups themselves, whom should Murphy and the BOD hold most accountable for such failure: the GM or coaching staff?)

Sometimes I wonder if Thompson, McCarthy and Capers expect better play out of try-hard good-guys (with inadequate talent) are simply incapable of providing. Nobody seems willing to admit that these players may have been poor acquisitions in lieu of other options (free agents with pedigrees). Or that even they cannot coach-up every player to become championship caliber as either a starter or backup. While not every position can be filled by blue-chip players, at least a few difference-makers are needed to legitimately compete for a championship. Observers shouldn't have to squint their eyes to see difference-makers in the line-up.

Are McCarthy and Capers biting their lips regarding the level of talent they've been given to work with or are those two and their subordinates (plus Thompson) really convinced in their own abilities to find and transform just any old ugly frogs into handsome princes? Both to some degree? How could anyone expect to mold inexperienced, slow-footed, non-instinctual players into NFL starting caliber or backup capable players?

Despite the current dearth of difference-makers playing for this team, Thompson remains devoted to a one-trick pony as it relates to acquiring players. As other posters have pointed-out in the past, when a team so heavily relies upon just a single method for player acquisition (also counting the acquisition of cheap, street free-agents) the GM must also be far better than average picking via the draft in order to make up for virtually ignoring the obvious available alternative that is there for enhancing overall team talent. One mediocre draft or, worse yet, a series of mediocre drafts could catch-up to a team in a hurry.

The current level of talent on defense speaks to the eventual fate of a hard-and-fast draft and develop philosophy. Only a few years of mediocre drafts can result in a significantly weakened roster down the line, especially if they run together. That puts the onus on the GM to overcome his past draft failures and to somehow become even more successful than ever during his subsequent drafts. Even then, it may take years for those players chosen to become so-called core players. By then, more (finally) developed players will be lost to attrition and free agency and they will also need to be replaced. There's not much, if any, wiggle-room for even modest failure.

Capers may be expecting too much from a motley bunch of hangers-on, and some responsibility for that should rest directly on his shoulders (and especially McCarthy's) at the coaching level. But the bottom-line is that an overall lack of talent is accountable to the GM who has provided all of his coaches with a roster overly-populated with flawed players expected to perform as starters or backups.

For that reason I would concur with those posters that attribute Thompson being the most responsible for the inadequate player performances that we are now witnessing every week. There are just too many holes that have not been filled adequately on this roster for coaching alone to overcome. Caper's inept defense is a symptom of that "disease." But an effective "cure" needs to address the cause, not just its most obvious symptoms. Coaching changes would inevitably follow that cure.

 

[Mondio]

Everyone wants to talk about talent level, that these guys aren't good enough to play in the NFL. That may be true, but I think what your'e seeing is more of a lack of experience than lack of talent. Nobody, nowhere, not ever would expect guys this deep on the depth chart to play this often and this much.

You can argue that Thompson should have gotten more veterans, that's fine, but then there wasn't hardly a soul saying the DB's were a very talented group of guys with the sky as the limit, heading into this season. I happened to think that way too. They rolled the dice a little bit in keeping young guys over declining vets (who was available, I don't even know) but normally, you rotate in 1 or 2 at a time because of injury and usually as dime and nickel DB's. They get experience while being able to be helped. ANd other situations outside of injury pop up and you get them more experience based on game situations and in a year or 2 they're really ready to play more. That's how it usually works

They gambled on being able to do that when what really happened is you lost a playmaker, not only on this team, but one of the better DB's in the league early on in the season. Then you lost your promising and young #'s 2 and 3. So now you're playing #3,4, and 5 extensively with injuries among that bunch as well.

you can argue that they should have known right awya with shields that they needed to replace him. Fine, with who? he wasn't IR'd right away, and I'd argue that ended poorly for us, but you don't just get rid of a guy like shields that can take out a WR by himself. we weren't getting anybody else to fill his shoes or take his roster spot at that point, as much as everyone thinks you just go out and get a shut down corner after the season starts.

So they decided to go with the 2 young promising guys. looking at our schedule coming into the year, they had time to learn too before it was crunch time. Well our defense played fairly well early on and our offense stunk up the joint. then people started going down, some positions harder than others. i'm not going to replay the entire year.

But everyone thinks every other team is going to withstand the gutting of depth at such a very important position like DB and it won't matter? Even last game, they played ok to start, but after we lost a couple more LInebackers and another DB and played guys that should never see the field as a safety, let alone a DB with regularity, mistakes and big plays killed us.

So, lack of talent? or lack of experience? You can say it shouldn't matter, but it does. You can argue that Ted should have gotten more veterans. That's fine, but you tell me who has 3 more vets buried on the depth chart that should be starters in this league? They're usually available and buried on depth charts for a reason. While they might not make mistakes, they usually have something that needs to be covered up for and when you have nobody on the field for much of th eyear that is supposed to be a starter starting, you're trying to cover up deficits for everyone. That doesn't work well. Injuries can't be an excuse or you'll never go anywhere, but it doesn't mean they don't matter.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Everyone wants to talk about talent level, that these guys aren't good enough to play in the NFL. That may be true, but I think what your'e seeing is more of a lack of experience than lack of talent. Nobody, nowhere, not ever would expect guys this deep on the depth chart to play this often and this much.

You can argue that Thompson should have gotten more veterans, that's fine, but then there wasn't hardly a soul saying the DB's were a very talented group of guys with the sky as the limit, heading into this season. I happened to think that way too. They rolled the dice a little bit in keeping young guys over declining vets (who was available, I don't even know) but normally, you rotate in 1 or 2 at a time because of injury and usually as dime and nickel DB's. They get experience while being able to be helped. ANd other situations outside of injury pop up and you get them more experience based on game situations and in a year or 2 they're really ready to play more. That's how it usually works

They gambled on being able to do that when what really happened is you lost a playmaker, not only on this team, but one of the better DB's in the league early on in the season. Then you lost your promising and young #'s 2 and 3. So now you're playing #3,4, and 5 extensively with injuries among that bunch as well.

you can argue that they should have known right awya with shields that they needed to replace him. Fine, with who? he wasn't IR'd right away, and I'd argue that ended poorly for us, but you don't just get rid of a guy like shields that can take out a WR by himself. we weren't getting anybody else to fill his shoes or take his roster spot at that point, as much as everyone thinks you just go out and get a shut down corner after the season starts.

So they decided to go with the 2 young promising guys. looking at our schedule coming into the year, they had time to learn too before it was crunch time. Well our defense played fairly well early on and our offense stunk up the joint. then people started going down, some positions harder than others. i'm not going to replay the entire year.

But everyone thinks every other team is going to withstand the gutting of depth at such a very important position like DB and it won't matter? Even last game, they played ok to start, but after we lost a couple more LInebackers and another DB and played guys that should never see the field as a safety, let alone a DB with regularity, mistakes and big plays killed us.

So, lack of talent? or lack of experience? You can say it shouldn't matter, but it does. You can argue that Ted should have gotten more veterans. That's fine, but you tell me who has 3 more vets buried on the depth chart that should be starters in this league? They're usually available and buried on depth charts for a reason. While they might not make mistakes, they usually have something that needs to be covered up for and when you have nobody on the field for much of th eyear that is supposed to be a starter starting, you're trying to cover up deficits for everyone. That doesn't work well. Injuries can't be an excuse or you'll never go anywhere, but it doesn't mean they don't matter.

While I agree with your point, what it comes down to (something you refer to with your rolling the dice comment), is fully evaluating the talent you are putting on your 53 in September and being darn sure it's solid enough to make it through a 16 game season and perhaps beyond. Yes, TT gambled this year with depth, hoping he could stash some of the younger guys on the 53, guys that he felt had future potential. The problem is and we are seeing it this year, those guys may have to come in and play and if they aren't ready, we see the results. While I like the Draft and Develop model that TT uses, I think he over uses it and under estimates the possible immediate need of those 5 or so guys he hopes to make inactive each week and have them ready a year later. I think for a few years now we are seeing what youth does to our special teams and now that is filtering down to our defense where guys who truly aren't ready but are being forced into playing. That might work when its just 1 guy and surrounded by vets, but not 2 or 3 surrounded by other young guys.

I'm not an expert on what other teams do, but it just seems like TT has assembled a roster that is just a bit too heavy with youth and inexperience and injuries have exposed the pitfall of this strategy.

 

[Mondio]

It's not a problem that they aren't ready to play. If that were the criteria nobody would ever see the field. Whether they were young or vets available to put deep in your roster, they have deficiencies. If they didn't you're extremely lucky for a season or 2, or they're being paid as started for someone else. You need a couple of those guys and generally playing one or 2 of them at a time is ok. It's when you have to play all of them all if the time that a team will get in trouble. It won't matter if they're young or old, playing your 5th corner is ok. Playing a young or old 6th corner is ok too. But when you have 5,6,7 on the field pretty much all the time and together, you're going to have problems.

 

[OldSchool101]

While I agree with your point, what it comes down to (something you refer to with your rolling the dice comment), is fully evaluating the talent you are putting on your 53 in September and being darn sure it's solid enough to make it through a 16 game season and perhaps beyond. Yes, TT gambled this year with depth, hoping he could stash some of the younger guys on the 53, guys that he felt had future potential. The problem is and we are seeing it this year, those guys may have to come in and play and if they aren't ready, we see the results. While I like the Draft and Develop model that TT uses, I think he over uses it and under estimates the possible immediate need of those 5 or so guys he hopes to make inactive each week and have them ready a year later. I think for a few years now we are seeing what youth does to our special teams and now that is filtering down to our defense where guys who truly aren't ready but are being forced into playing

I agree with the point about the guys with future potential making the 53. IMO the injuries seem to have gotten worse (or appear that way due to new safety protocols). I'd like to see a 60 man roster with the same game day actives to counter the increased safety protocols that have been implemented. A 60 man roster with 10 on the practice squad should conceivably give you 2 full teams of 22 players (an A team Offense and Defense and a B team O and D) for scrimmage purposes and ST unit.
There will always be injuries. The 7 or so extra players are essential to cover that spread of ongoing injuries and the IR and PUP rules need to be revamped in accordance with the influx of non season ending injuries, player suspensions etc..

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I agree with the point about the guys with future potential making the 53. IMO the injuries seem to have gotten worse (or appear that way due to new safety protocols). I'd like to see a 60 man roster with the same game day actives to counter the increased safety protocols that have implemented. A 60 man roster with 10 on the practice squad should conceivably give you 2 full teams of 22 players (an A team Offense and Defense and a B team O and D) for scrimmage purposes and ST unit.

I've been tooting that horn for a while LOL People keep telling me that owners won't agree to it because it will cost them more money and the CBA won't allow it anyway. My response.....considering the revenues of most teams, I think its well within their budgets. If not, keep the cap as is and some guys will be making $10 -12M/year instead of $12-14M Boo hoo!

If it doesn't work with the existing CBA, work towards changing it. But as long as fans are fine with a watered down product making it to the field around the 8 week mark and beyond, because of injuries, then so be it.

IMO the Packers and a lot of other teams, would be greatly served by an expanded roster, this year is no exception to that.

One guy argued with me "the players are still out there, they are just "free agents". Well yeah.....free agents working other jobs, not staying in shape and even more importantly, not working daily with a specific team.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Everyone wants to talk about talent level, that these guys aren't good enough to play in the NFL. That may be true, but I think what your'e seeing is more of a lack of experience than lack of talent. Nobody, nowhere, not ever would expect guys this deep on the depth chart to play this often and this much.

You can argue that Thompson should have gotten more veterans, that's fine, but then there wasn't hardly a soul saying the DB's were a very talented group of guys with the sky as the limit, heading into this season. I happened to think that way too. They rolled the dice a little bit in keeping young guys over declining vets (who was available, I don't even know) but normally, you rotate in 1 or 2 at a time because of injury and usually as dime and nickel DB's. They get experience while being able to be helped. ANd other situations outside of injury pop up and you get them more experience based on game situations and in a year or 2 they're really ready to play more. That's how it usually works

They gambled on being able to do that when what really happened is you lost a playmaker, not only on this team, but one of the better DB's in the league early on in the season. Then you lost your promising and young #'s 2 and 3. So now you're playing #3,4, and 5 extensively with injuries among that bunch as well.

you can argue that they should have known right awya with shields that they needed to replace him. Fine, with who? he wasn't IR'd right away, and I'd argue that ended poorly for us, but you don't just get rid of a guy like shields that can take out a WR by himself. we weren't getting anybody else to fill his shoes or take his roster spot at that point, as much as everyone thinks you just go out and get a shut down corner after the season starts.

So they decided to go with the 2 young promising guys. looking at our schedule coming into the year, they had time to learn too before it was crunch time. Well our defense played fairly well early on and our offense stunk up the joint. then people started going down, some positions harder than others. i'm not going to replay the entire year.

But everyone thinks every other team is going to withstand the gutting of depth at such a very important position like DB and it won't matter? Even last game, they played ok to start, but after we lost a couple more LInebackers and another DB and played guys that should never see the field as a safety, let alone a DB with regularity, mistakes and big plays killed us.

So, lack of talent? or lack of experience? You can say it shouldn't matter, but it does. You can argue that Ted should have gotten more veterans. That's fine, but you tell me who has 3 more vets buried on the depth chart that should be starters in this league? They're usually available and buried on depth charts for a reason. While they might not make mistakes, they usually have something that needs to be covered up for and when you have nobody on the field for much of th eyear that is supposed to be a starter starting, you're trying to cover up deficits for everyone. That doesn't work well. Injuries can't be an excuse or you'll never go anywhere, but it doesn't mean they don't matter.

In my opinion players not ready to perform at the pro level shouldn't be on a team's active roster. The practice squad is there to develop talented guys who still need time to adjust to the NFL. It's true a team might lose some of them to other clubs but it's better than to be forced to play them in case of injuries to starters.

Unfortunately Thompson relies heavily on core players not getting injured and it has come back to haubt this year's team big time.

 

[Mondio]

In my opinion players not ready to perform at the pro level shouldn't be on a team's active roster. The practice squad is there to develop talented guys who still need time to adjust to the NFL. It's true a team might lose some of them to other clubs but it's better than to be forced to play them in case of injuries to starters.

Unfortunately Thompson relies heavily on core players not getting injured and it has come back to haubt this year's team big time.

That's fine, I don't totally disagree either. My point is, if they're more practice squad ready rather than active roster ready, or seasoned vets available after September to add to your roster, there is likely a deficit in their game you're going to have to cover up with the rest of your defense. That's ok, when it's 1 or 2 players. It's never going to be ok when a team is this deep in it's roster at 1 or 2 positions. a team can play it's 7th DB at 1 position as long as 1 and 2 are still out there. It will hurt the defense, but it's ok. It's not ok when 7 is playing next to 4, 5 and 6 for much of the year

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That's fine, I don't totally disagree either. My point is, if they're more practice squad ready rather than active roster ready, or seasoned vets available after September to add to your roster, there is likely a deficit in their game you're going to have to cover up with the rest of your defense. That's ok, when it's 1 or 2 players. It's never going to be ok when a team is this deep in it's roster at 1 or 2 positions. a team can play it's 7th DB at 1 position as long as 1 and 2 are still out there. It will hurt the defense, but it's ok. It's not ok when 7 is playing next to 4, 5 and 6 for much of the year

The Packers have had their top two safeties as well as the #3, #4 and #5 cornerback available for the last few games yet struggled mightily. I agree that a drop-off in performance is to be expected when missing the top two cornerbacks but not as steep as the team has experienced.

 

[PackAttack12]

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2016/11/21/packers-defense-has-no-answers-collapse/94105526/


http://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/p...hell-broke-loose-may-haunt-packers-dom-capers

This was a snippet from the ESPN piece:

Still, there was no forgetting that the Packers allowed three 50-yard plays in the fourth quarter alone. According to ESPN Stat & Information, the Packers were the first team to do that since 2001. And no team has allowed that many 50-yard plays in the fourth quarter all season.

That's just atrocious.

 

[PackerDNA]

The Packers have had their top two safeties as well as the #3, #4 and #5 cornerback available for the last few games yet struggled mightily. I agree that a drop-off in performance is to be expected when missing the top two cornerbacks but not as steep as the team has experienced.

The #s 2 and 3 CB's haven't been any great shakes when they've been on the field, either.