Emmanuel Sanders

[Pokerbrat2000]

Agreed... but to me it’s a big enough one that I would not want to make a large investment. Now if we can grab someone without having to give up a high round pick and or pay them ridiculous money... by all means give it a shot.

We are coming to an agreement! lol Like I said, the hindsight mistake with Graham probably wasn't the fact that they signed him, they needed a top TE at the time and they though they were getting one, it was the fact that they signed him for 3 years with a lot of guaranteed money.

 

[XPack]

We are coming to an agreement! lol Like I said, the hindsight mistake with Graham probably wasn't the fact that they signed him, they needed a top TE at the time and they though they were getting one, it was the fact that they signed him for 3 years with a lot of guaranteed money.

He had 10 TD the year before and was considered as a genuine red zone threat. I presume others might have offered the same or more. In hindsight 2 years might have been astute.

 

[Mondio]

Again, I said drafting one probably doesn't do you much for 2019, but potentially helps you a year or two out. As far as picks go, I like Gary, but was he necessary with the #1 pick? Sternberger at the #3 pick? All sorts of ways those 3 picks could have turned out and one of them easily could have been a WR and still got Savage.

As far as signing a FA, we have done this dance in another thread. Not going to repeat it.

Again, I ask, did you think we were fine going into 2019 with the WR's we had? I think the Packers thought so. I just didn't and I stated it many times over the last 5 or so months. Telling me that they couldn't do anything isn't true, but if you told me that the Packers didn't do a thing, because they didn't see a need, I would believe that.

Gary, Savage and our starting Guard Jenkins were the first 3 picks, but if we go to round 3 that was a TE, one many wanted and a playmaking position on the offense. Who instead of Jace and why pass on your TE that most thought was great value leaving you with nothing after this season other than Tonyan in the future? Either way round 3 was an offense playmaking position. WR or TE it doesn't really matter to me, an offense can use and needs to be successful.

So you pass on Gary, take around 1 WR. you're good with Smith, Smith, Fackrell and Reggie Glibert? no chance you'd be complaining about the OLB's with that would there be?

We don't pick Jenkins and now we don't have a starting guard, now what? They relied on Taylor ,a proven vet, to stay healthy and then Turner was going to be a swing man at Guard and RT if Bulaga went down which now doesn't even seem to be an option, How does our line look now with no taylor, no Jenkins because you didn't draft him and took a round 2 WR instead. Maybe we keep McCray and Light holding down the right side? Now what? not complaining about Oline?

We had a new coach, a new offense and lots of learning by both sets of the offensive equation that needed to happen. I didn't think we were fine, I didn't know. MVS, EQ are as athletically gifted as one needs to be to play in this league. What made you think in April they can't play in the league?

Week 1 to Week 4 the offense is improving i expect that to keep happening. I don't think even you can say you know what these players are or will be. EQ got hurt, but you couldn't have known that in April.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

MVS, EQ are as athletically gifted as one needs to be to play in this league. What made you think in April they can't play in the league?

I never said that they can't play in this league, did I? What I did say...was that the WR group was very thin in experience and talent and I included Allison with those 2. By their actions or I should say inaction's, the Packers were counting on those 3, along with Adams. Given the history of the position in Green Bay and what we have seen from guys chosen later than the 3rd round, which all 3 of those guys were, I didn't have a lot of confidence in April and I still don't, at least not enough to rely on as your #2-4 WR's in 2019. Who knows what they will look like in 2020 and beyond.

You can slice your draft picks and FA points up anyway you want, but it doesn't matter to me. The fact is, the Packers did nothing but sit pat on the WR group that they had after they cut Cobb, not because they had to, because they chose to. So far, sitting pat doesn't appear to be the right move for 2019 to me.

 

[Mondio]

Obviously it doesn’t matter, creating problems elsewhere wouldn’t matter to you and you don’t seem to want to admit there are limited resources from which to do things in any given year.

Of course they chose to, for reasons I’ve gone thru more than once that dealt with new coach, new offense, not knowing what they had, the coach not knowing what he needed or wanted after seeing them and having seen they had 2 or 3 guys that could play and needed time to develop.

Anyway, resources are not unlimited, they made grade A choices across the board this offseason. Better than that considering the circumstances.

This offense has gotten better every week. It was never going to come out hitting on all cylinders. It’s going to continue to get better with who they have.

We’d be better off with Reggie Gilbert playing 70 snaps a game on defense

 

[RRyder]

We are coming to an agreement! lol Like I said, the hindsight mistake with Graham probably wasn't the fact that they signed him, they needed a top TE at the time and they though they were getting one, it was the fact that they signed him for 3 years with a lot of guaranteed money.

Can I use the Graham argument?

Kinda hard to say its hindsight when I hated the signing from the word go and argued hes been the most overrated player in the league for years

 

[OldSchool101]

In hindsight I can't help but think they should have traded that #12 pick (that was used on Rashan Gary) for O. Beckham. Probably be 4-0 right now and favored in the NFC to be in the Super Bowl.

Not that I’ve given up on Rashan 4 games into a 5 year tenure, but we could’ve continued our philosophy of trading back in the draft (Alexander). I think that was a brilliant way to acquire resources.
I would’ve been fine picking in the teens and acquiring another 3rd rounder etc.. then using it at another O skill position. RB/WR etc..

It just made sense when we let Cobb go.. to shore up that Slot position and there were some nice WR’s left still in the 3rd round.

As far as WR, I wouldn’t want anyone unless they were a viable candidate <= 28 yr old.. to sign a more mutually beneficial multi year contract, whereas you get a shot at that 9M type guy for a 3yr/20M type contract. I’d like it to overlap it with the Smiths etc..

Also, we have to remember that a draft pick traded away is a 4 year contract on the cheap, lost. You really don’t want that for a 1 yr answer.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

How long until your 2020 draft pick is up to snuff? 2021? 2022? Will Rodgers be washed up by then? Brady is an anomoly, not the norm...Rodgers ain't Brady.

If the Packers use an early round draft pick on a wide receiver next year he could have an immediate impact.

What draft capital is at WR? Adams and Scantling, that is it. Exactly what draft capital are we giving up on had they traded for Beckham?

Trading for Beckham would have resulted in other positions being weakened. There's no way of knowing what the Giants would have asked in return for OBJ to trade him to Green Bay.

Obviously it doesn’t matter, creating problems elsewhere wouldn’t matter to you and you don’t seem to want to admit there are limited resources from which to do things in any given year.

Of course they chose to, for reasons I’ve gone thru more than once that dealt with new coach, new offense, not knowing what they had, the coach not knowing what he needed or wanted after seeing them and having seen they had 2 or 3 guys that could play and needed time to develop.

Anyway, resources are not unlimited, they made grade A choices across the board this offseason. Better than that considering the circumstances.

This offense has gotten better every week. It was never going to come out hitting on all cylinders. It’s going to continue to get better with who they have.

We’d be better off with Reggie Gilbert playing 70 snaps a game on defense

Obviously using hindsight but the Packers would have been better off selecting Terry McLaurin instead of Jace Sternberger with the 75th pick. The rest of the team would look exactly the same in that case as well.

 

[elcid]

Can I use the Graham argument?

Kinda hard to say its hindsight when I hated the signing from the word go and argued hes been the most overrated player in the league for years

I can attest to this fact, I remember being ecstatic with the Packers finally spending some money at the dawn of the Gute Era, only to see some guy named @RRyder on this forum absolutely hammer the signing. In hindsight, that guy was right.

 

[Mondio]

Obviously using hindsight but the Packers would have been better off selecting Terry McLaurin instead of Jace Sternberger with the 75th pick. The rest of the team would look exactly the same in that case as well.

It could have, but TE and WR? Both are necessary for an NFL offense. But at the time he could have been selected he was nothing more than potential like we already had, but with a year's less experience. and for all we know Sternberger could be that Stretch the seam, open up the offense, 5-7 catch a game TE that opens up the rest of the offense and moves chains. But truth be told, he's probably one of my least liked draft picks last year so we'll see. I like Tonyan better, from his speed to his hands. I think he'll fight for a ball more than Sternberger, but I guess that's yet TBD'd. Tonyan rarely sees the ball and Sternberger is on IR for now.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

It could have, but TE and WR? Both are necessary for an NFL offense. But at the time he could have been selected he was nothing more than potential like we already had, but with a year's less experience. and for all we know Sternberger could be that Stretch the seam, open up the offense, 5-7 catch a game TE that opens up the rest of the offense and moves chains. But truth be told, he's probably one of my least liked draft picks last year so we'll see. I like Tonyan better, from his speed to his hands. I think he'll fight for a ball more than Sternberger, but I guess that's yet TBD'd. Tonyan rarely sees the ball and Sternberger is on IR for now.

Sternberger will be our project for a few years I think. We're in it for the long haul with him IMO and it's up to the coaching staff to make a player out of him. It boggles my mind the lack of opportunity that Tonyan has had after displaying some of his catching prowess. He needs more opportunity.

 

[PackerDNA]

Sternberger will be our project for a few years I think. We're in it for the long haul with him IMO and it's up to the coaching staff to make a player out of him. It boggles my mind the lack of opportunity that Tonyan has had after displaying some of his catching prowess. He needs more opportunity.

Maybe Tonyan hasn't earned enough opportunities yet. So far, he's just been a guy who looks great in preseason against scrubs and when it counts makes one play every 6 games or so.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Maybe Tonyan hasn't earned enough opportunities yet. So far, he's just been a guy who looks great in preseason against scrubs and when it counts makes one play every 6 games or so.

Agree on the "earning of opportunities". We see this every season and for some players, multiple seasons. They look pretty decent in Preseason, then when it comes to the games that actually count and they are up against starting talent, crickets. Yet some fans scream and shout that they need to play more. Yup nice 54 yd TD last year but Tonyan, but Janis had one similar to it in his time.

I think Tonyan will get his chances, especially with Graham not playing well and injured, but until he proves himself to be consistently good enough to play in the NFL as a starter, he isn't just going to be put in there because he looked good in Preseason.

 

[Mondio]

Maybe Tonyan hasn't earned enough opportunities yet. So far, he's just been a guy who looks great in preseason against scrubs and when it counts makes one play every 6 games or so.

He looks better than that when he's in against the big guys too. he looks just as fast and he looks to fight for the ball all the same, he just rarely sees it thrown to him. Watch him when he's in.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Agree on the "earning of opportunities". We see this every season and for some players, multiple seasons. They look pretty decent in Preseason, then when it comes to the games that actually count and they are up against starting talent, crickets. Yet some fans scream and shout that they need to play more. Yup nice 54 yd TD last year but Tonyan, but Janis had one similar to it in his time.

I think Tonyan will get his chances, especially with Graham not playing well and injured, but until he proves himself to be consistently good enough to play in the NFL as a starter, he isn't just going to be put in there because he looked good in Preseason.

How much of his lack of opportunities is Graham's contract though? Tonyan passes the eye test, he trucked people blocking in the preseason (saw so myself) and has more footspeed than Graham by a mile. I think if all things were equal (read, contract situations) Tonyan would deserve 6+ targets a game and would be on the field for three downs.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

How much of his lack of opportunities is Graham's contract though?

Definitely a fair question. When a team goes "all in" on a guy, like the Packers have in Graham, its probably hard to back peddle and say to themselves "yup, we were wrong, bench him." At some point this season that might happen, but I think given that he had 61 yards and another TD against Philly, that time isn't now. Using a 3rd round pick on Jace Sternberger was a clear message that they aren't waiting too long though.

But I do think this notion of "he and Rodgers just have to establish chemistry and get on the same page", has to have a statute of limitations and that should be with all receivers and #12, cause frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing it.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Definitely a fair question. When a team goes "all in" on a guy, like the Packers have in Graham, its probably hard to back peddle and say to themselves "yup, we were wrong, bench him." At some point this season that might happen, but I think given that he had 61 yards and another TD against Philly, that time isn't now. Using a 3rd round pick on Jace Sternberger was a clear message that they aren't waiting too long though.

But I do think this notion of "he and Rodgers just have to establish chemistry and get on the same page", has to have a statute of limitations and that should be with all receivers and #12, cause frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing it.

The best players should be on the field period, chemistry is a two way street. Rodgers should be able to play with any of these guys as long as they're running the right routes. Gone are the days of the Jordy Nelson mind meld.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The best players should be on the field period, chemistry is a two way street. Rodgers should be able to play with any of these guys as long as they're running the right routes. Gone are the days of the Jordy Nelson mind meld.

While I agree with what you are saying on wanting to put your best players on the field and not to back track on my wanting to stop using the "on the same page excuse" with our offense, there is some validity to the notion. You could probably line up Odell Beckham this Sunday for the Packers and I doubt he plays nearly as good as he would 4-6 weeks later, when he has had time to work with Rodgers.

During the preseason we have heard "This WR has better chemistry with this QB, because they have been working together more".

So a part of "best player" takes into consideration not just their individual football skills, but their ability to work with the other 10 guys they are lined up with. I also think that chemistry between 2 players is probably the most complicated at the WR position.

Back to my point, how long should that "chemistry" take, when is it no longer a valid excuse or more importantly, how long do the Packers wait?

 

[HardRightEdge]

We are coming to an agreement! lol Like I said, the hindsight mistake with Graham probably wasn't the fact that they signed him, they needed a top TE at the time and they though they were getting one, it was the fact that they signed him for 3 years with a lot of guaranteed money.

It might be worth recalling that Gutekunst pursued Alan Robinson, confirmed by Robinson himself. It was rumored the Packers were also pursuing Sammy Watkins:

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/...wr-allen-robinson-before-he-landed-in-chicago

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/03/12/packers-among-teams-interested-in-wr-sammy-watkins/

Robinson signed with the Bears for 3 years / $42 mil; Watkins signed with the Chiefs for 3 years / $48 mil; Graham's Packer deal was for 3 years / $30 mil.

Gutekunst was not looking for a top TE. He was looking for a productive pass receiver. Graham barely qualified as a TE in the first place, having taken half his snaps out of the slot and known to be a sub-standard blocker. It would seem the Packers realized the depth of Graham's blocking deficiencies in signing Lewis in May.

In the final analysis, we should conclude that Robinson and Watkins exceeded the allocated budget. Graham was cheaper with Nelson released to offset some of the cost.

While Graham was certainly not cheap, the overall 2018 FA picture was one of back-and-fill with less expensive grizzled veterans to get back into the playoffs with Rodgers return: Graham, Wilkerson, Williams, House, Lewis. Rodgers' knee notwithstanding, it was a miscalculation not to be repeated in 2019.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It might be worth recalling that Gutekunst pursued Alan Robinson, confirmed by Robinson himself. It was rumored the Packers were also pursuing Sammy Watkins

Gutekunst was not looking for a top TE. He was looking for a productive pass receiver.

We will never know what would have happened had the Packers signed Robinson or Watkins, except that it would have cost them a lot more money and their production with with the Bears and Chiefs, hasn't been all that great. However, you have two 26 year olds, instead of an older Graham. All the things remaining the same, I think some posters on here would be even more upset now over either of those guys being signed.

The Packers at the time also had Adams, Nelson and Cobb, so IMO a TE was the smarter signing, which was why I would still say that was their goal and JG was viewed as the best deal available. Now maybe they knew that they weren't keeping Jordy around and signing a FA WR was a good option because of that. But yeah, at the end of the day, the goal was to get a productive receiver and the Packers spent less money on JG, banking on him scoring TD's and getting some yards. At this point he hasn't met expectations.

 

[HardRightEdge]

We will never know what would have happened had the Packers signed Robinson or Watkins, except that it would have cost them a lot more money and their production with with the Bears and Chiefs, hasn't been all that great. However, you have two 26 year olds, instead of an older Graham. All the things remaining the same, I think some posters on here would be even more upset now over either of those guys being signed.

The Packers at the time also had Adams, Nelson and Cobb, so IMO a TE was the smarter signing, which was why I would still say that was their goal and JG was viewed as the best deal available. Now maybe they knew that they weren't keeping Jordy around and signing a FA WR was a good option because of that. But yeah, at the end of the day, the goal was to get a productive receiver and the Packers spent less money on JG, banking on him scoring TD's and getting some yards. At this point he hasn't met expectations.

I'm not arguing that Robingson or Watkins would have been net-net better moves. My point is Gutekunst was not looking for a TE. He was looking for a starting receiver, TE or WR.

Nelson was going to be cut as soon as that starting receiver was signed.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

We will never know what would have happened had the Packers signed Robinson or Watkins, except that it would have cost them a lot more money and their production with with the Bears and Chiefs, hasn't been all that great. However, you have two 26 year olds, instead of an older Graham. All the things remaining the same, I think some posters on here would be even more upset now over either of those guys being signed.

The Packers at the time also had Adams, Nelson and Cobb, so IMO a TE was the smarter signing, which was why I would still say that was their goal and JG was viewed as the best deal available. Now maybe they knew that they weren't keeping Jordy around and signing a FA WR was a good option because of that. But yeah, at the end of the day, the goal was to get a productive receiver and the Packers spent less money on JG, banking on him scoring TD's and getting some yards. At this point he hasn't met expectations.

Well said. Only thing I may change is, unless my time line is off (very possible), the best deal would have been keep Jared Cook and dont come anywhere near JG

 

[Mondio]

Jared Cook balked at the offer so GB signed that quitter instead and Cook ended up with the Raiders for less. Graham was later.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well said. Only thing I may change is, unless my time line is off (very possible), the best deal would have been keep Jared Cook and dont come anywhere near JG

Actually, don't forget Cook was 2016, when the Packers didn't resign him, they signed Martellus "quitter" Bennett " for 2017, who some thought at the time was a better TE than Cook. I still think Cook was a guy that finally showed TT and MM what they had been lacking since Finley's injury and the two TE's that followed Cook, were an attempt to keep improving the Packers TE weapon.

Yes, strictly using hindsight, the Packers would have been so much better off keeping Cook, but at the time, they thought they could do better with someone else. The Packers also took a shot at Lance Kendrick's in 2017, hoping they would have a dual threat, that didn't turn out very good either.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

Actually, don't forget Cook was 2016, when the Packers didn't resign him, they signed Martellus "quitter" Bennett " for 2017, who some thought at the time was a better TE than Cook. I still think Cook was a guy that finally showed TT and MM what they had been lacking since Finley's injury and the two TE's that followed Cook, were an attempt to keep improving the Packers TE weapon.

Dang, I almost always forget about Bennett being here in between Cook and Graham