Defending Janis

[bigbubbatd]

QB Aaron Rodgers on Jeff Janis: "Jeff is bigger than he was last year, and playing bigger."

This was after that first practice.

Player progression is tricky, sometimes as the role and responsibility expands they exhibit new weaknesses and mistakes. If Janis is F-ing up back shoulder throws it suggests that he's improved on things like starting his break in the right place, and continuing his route through the right trajectory. Again this isn't exactly flattering, it reflects just how underdeveloped he was. But saying he hasn't improved as a receiver would be inaccurate.

Not trying to be a contrarian but what does that Rodgers quote have to do with being asked to read defenses?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

QB Aaron Rodgers on Jeff Janis: "Jeff is bigger than he was last year, and playing bigger."

This was after that first practice.

Player progression is tricky, sometimes as the role and responsibility expands they exhibit new weaknesses and mistakes. If Janis is F-ing up back shoulder throws it suggests that he's improved on things like starting his break in the right place, and continuing his route through the right trajectory. Again this isn't exactly flattering, it reflects just how underdeveloped he was. But saying he hasn't improved as a receiver would be inaccurate.

Rodgers quote doesn't mean a whole lot if Janis continues to make mental mistakes.

I really have no idea how you come up with him having improved in other areas because he misread a back shoulder throw.

 

[easyk83]

Not trying to be a contrarian but what does that Rodgers quote have to do with being asked to read defenses?

Rodgers quote supports the notion that he has improved and has made appreciable progress. That his knowledge base was primitive coming in has been well reported, that his basic route running was shoddy at best was also well reported. But I don't recall hearing much about him messing up read plays in the past, his problems largely stemmed from A) running routes in the wrong places and B) flat out running the wrong route off the snap. That he's now moved on to ******** up read plays suggests that the staff is more comfortable with his basic route running.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Rodgers quote supports the notion that he has improved and has made appreciable progress. That his knowledge base was primitive coming in has been well reported, that his basic route running was shoddy at best was also well reported. But I don't recall hearing much about him messing up read plays in the past, his problems largely stemmed from A) running routes in the wrong places and B) flat out running the wrong route off the snap. That he's now moved on to ******** up read plays suggests that the staff is more comfortable with his basic route running.

I guess I dont read "playing bigger" that way. I just read it as he is physically using his size better, but I could be wrong. Janis definitely screwed up reads last year. I distinctly remember a play where Rodgers escaped the pocket near the end zone and Janis floated to the back of the end zone even though defender was there instead of going harder to the flat. The pass ended falling incomplete or getting intercepted. Rodgers and McCarthy were livid with Janis as he went to the sideline. I get that Janis played at a small school but if in year two he is still not being asked to read defenses that is crazy

 

[easyk83]

I guess I dont read "playing bigger" that way. I just read it as he is physically using his size better, but I could be wrong. Janis definitely screwed up reads last year. I distinctly remember a play where Rodgers escaped the pocket near the end zone and Janis floated to the back of the end zone even though defender was there instead of going harder to the flat. The pass ended falling incomplete or getting intercepted. Rodgers and McCarthy were livid with Janis as he went to the sideline. I get that Janis played at a small school but if in year two he is still not being asked to read defenses that is crazy

The issue with a player like Janis, at this point in time, is not that he isn't progressing but whether or not he's progressing fast enough. Or for that matter whether or not the team's time would be better spent elsewhere. I would remind some of my fellow forum members that Davante Adams made similar mistakes on back shoulder throws throughout the season last year. Heck look at Randall Cobb if you want to see that play F-d up. That Jordy and JJ made that play look effortless doesn't mean the other guys run it well.

 

[easyk83]

I guess I dont read "playing bigger" that way. I just read it as he is physically using his size better, but I could be wrong. Janis definitely screwed up reads last year. I distinctly remember a play where Rodgers escaped the pocket near the end zone and Janis floated to the back of the end zone even though defender was there instead of going harder to the flat. The pass ended falling incomplete or getting intercepted. Rodgers and McCarthy were livid with Janis as he went to the sideline. I get that Janis played at a small school but if in year two he is still not being asked to read defenses that is crazy

There's a big difference between a designed read and a receiver making a read on a broken play.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The issue with a player like Janis, at this point in time, is not that he isn't progressing but whether or not he's progressing fast enough. Or for that matter whether or not the team's time would be better spent elsewhere. I would remind some of my fellow forum members that Davante Adams made similar mistakes on back shoulder throws throughout the season last year. Heck look at Randall Cobb if you want to see that play F-d up. That Jordy and JJ made that play look effortless doesn't mean the other guys run it well.

Janis still making a ton of mental mistakes in his third year with the team makes me believe he isn't progressing at all and will never be able to fully grasp the playbook. Of course the Janis can do no wrong crowd doesn't get that and even come up with absurd theories of him making mistakes showing some kind of progress.

There's a big difference between a designed read and a receiver making a read on a broken play.

The only thing Janis has proven so far is that he's capable of having an impact on broken or desperation plays. He doesn't know the offense well enough to be the primary target by design.

 

[Pkrjones]

Janis still making a ton of mental mistakes in his third year

A ton? He made one misjudgement (undercutting Shield's defense and ball sailing long for the INT) on Day 2, and mis-read the D on a backshoulder throw on day 3 ~ that's A TON of mistakes?

There are definitely polar-opposite opinions of Janis' progress but why the need to misrepresent your case? If it's valid it will play out but please save the hyperbole. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

A ton? He made one misjudgement (undercutting Shield's defense and ball sailing long for the INT) on Day 2, and mis-read the D on a backshoulder throw on day 3 ~ that's A TON of mistakes?

There are definitely polar-opposite opinions of Janis' progress but why the need to misrepresent your case? If it's valid it will play out but please save the hyperbole. Thanks.

It seems you didn't follow reports of OTA and minicamp practices as there were several incidents of Janis ******** up as well.

 

[Pkrjones]

Cobb continues to screw up a ton 6 years into his career ... ???
"Tom Silverstein ✔ @TomSilverstein

Rodgers and Cobb off again today. Can't connect on an out route. 9:35 AM - 28 Jul 2016"

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Cobb continues to screw up a ton 6 years into his career ... ???
"Tom Silverstein ✔ @TomSilverstein

Rodgers and Cobb off again today. Can't connect on an out route. 9:35 AM - 28 Jul 2016"

There will always be isolated instances of Rodgers and a veteran receiver not being on the same page. The difference to Janis being that Cobb has proven to have a full grasp of the playbook for several years.

BTW Silverstein doesn't indicate it was Cobb's fault they weren't able to connect on that out route.

 

[Pkrjones]

BTW Silverstein doesn't indicate it was Cobb's fault they weren't able to connect on that out route.

, who's fault would it be? It's Aaron's team and the receivers need to be on the same page AS AARON IS ON. How well would the argument hold up if I, or another poster, would say "Silverstein didn't indicate that it was Janis' fault"?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

, who's fault would it be? It's Aaron's team and the receivers need to be on the same page AS AARON IS ON. How well would the argument hold up if I, or another poster, would say "Silverstein didn't indicate that it was Janis' fault"?

You're making things up. Silverstein tweeted that Rodgers and Cobb weren't able to connect on an out route. He didn't mention them not being on the same page. On the other hand Dougherty was crystal clear about Janis being at fault for the two bad plays yesterday.

I don't expect you being able to form an objective opinion about and realize the difference though.

 

[Pkrjones]

You're making things up. Silverstein tweeted that Rodgers and Cobb weren't able to connect on an out route. He didn't mention them not being on the same page. On the other hand Dougherty was crystal clear about Janis being at fault for the two bad plays yesterday.

I don't expect you being able to form an objective opinion about and realize the difference though.

First line (of only 2, c'mon) of Silverstein's twitter post: "Rodgers and Cobb off again today". In my opinion "off" means "not on" the same page? Careful, you can only split hairs so many times...

So is it only you, on your golden throne, who's capable of objective opinions?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

First line (of only 2, c'mon) of Silverstein's twitter post: "Rodgers and Cobb off again today". In my opinion "off" means "not on" the same page? Careful, you can only split hairs so many times...

So is it only you, on your golden throne, who's capable of objective opinions?

It's possible the throw was off, Cobb dropped it... Silverstein's tweet isn't conclusive about what happened on that play.

It doesn't matter though even if it was Cobb's fault as he has proven to be on the same page with Rodgers during games for several seasons while Janis can't consistently run the right route in practice.

If you really think Cobb making a mental mistake in practice is as worrisome as Janis doing the same there's no reason to talk about it with you anymore.

 

[RRyder]

QB Aaron Rodgers on Jeff Janis: "Jeff is bigger than he was last year, and playing bigger."

This was after that first practice.

Player progression is tricky, sometimes as the role and responsibility expands they exhibit new weaknesses and mistakes. If Janis is F-ing up back shoulder throws it suggests that he's improved on things like starting his break in the right place, and continuing his route through the right trajectory. Again this isn't exactly flattering, it reflects just how underdeveloped he was. But saying he hasn't improved as a receiver would be inaccurate.

Did I just read that someone is arguing that Janis making a mistake is a sign that he's progressing as a WR?

WTF? The Cult of Janis strikes again

 

[easyk83]

Did I just read that someone is arguing that Janis making a mistake is a sign that he's progressing as a WR?

WTF? The Cult of Janis strikes again

Cult of Janis, my position was always that he's a developmental prospect with a flair for making big plays in game. Always took the position that he may or may not develop. That makes it a cult like belief to you? Oh and yes, he has seen an increased diet of designed read plays in practice, that's not really up for debate.

Edit: I also took the position that there really wasn't much talent ahead of Janis with respect to that true number 2 role. Davante Adams blew back shoulder reads with regularity last year. Cobb never looked natural with those plays on the outside, Monty is a slot specialist and Abby gets hurt if someone gives him a mean look. That leaves Davis who was 5th best on a College Team.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Cult of Janis, my position was always that he's a developmental prospect with a flair for making big plays in game. Always took the position that he may or may not develop. That makes it a cult like belief to you? Oh and yes, he has seen an increased diet of designed read plays in practice, that's not really up for debate.

Edit: I also took the position that there really wasn't much talent ahead of Janis with respect to that true number 2 role. Davante Adams blew back shoulder reads with regularity last year. Cobb never looked natural with those plays on the outside, Monty is a slot specialist and Abby gets hurt if someone gives him a mean look. That leaves Davis who was 5th best on a College Team.

Why isn't it up for debate that Janis has seen an increased amount of designed read plays this offseason??? You haven't provided any meaningful information supporting that claim.

The Packers have four wide receivers with a realistic chance to make the roster best suited to play outside. While Adams struggled last season he's the front runner to start opposite Nelson. As of right now I expect the coaching staff would feel more comfortable playing Cobb, Montgomery or Abbrederis on the outside before giving Janis or Davis significant playing time on the perimeter.

 

[RRyder]

Cult of Janis, my position was always that he's a developmental prospect with a flair for making big plays in game. Always took the position that he may or may not develop. That makes it a cult like belief to you? Oh and yes, he has seen an increased diet of designed read plays in practice, that's not really up for debate.

Edit: I also took the position that there really wasn't much talent ahead of Janis with respect to that true number 2 role. Davante Adams blew back shoulder reads with regularity last year. Cobb never looked natural with those plays on the outside, Monty is a slot specialist and Abby gets hurt if someone gives him a mean look. That leaves Davis who was 5th best on a College Team.

When you're arguing he's improved due to the fact that he's making mistakes based on the logic that he's making them because of a more pronounced role with zero evidence then yes that's cult like. Because you're taking it on faith

 

[easyk83]

This from last year,

"He's a big guy so some of the routes cater to him," Van Pelt said. "Some of the routes we run where there's a lot of sudden change in movements, they just don't fit the bigger players.

"Not to say that he's not a great vertical threat and can run the post and hook. It's just the build of the body."

Janis dominated the Division II Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference, where cornerbacks get on the field with 4.65 to 4.7-second 40s.

The Packers have worked with Janis to be more physical in escaping press-man coverage from much speedier cornerbacks, and there's tape of him doing exactly that.

"He has days where you come out there and say, 'Man, he's just throwing guys around,'" Van Pelt said. "Because he's being physical and using his strength. That's what you like to see."

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...struggling-in-camp-b99555431z1-321698201.html


From Cheesehead Tv

"Intangibles/misc: Janis is an intriguing case study. He was called out all season by head coach Mike McCarthy or Aaron Rodgers. His route running was poor, but after the NFC Divisional Playoff, it was clear that Janis could play and was being vastly underutilized. His straight-line speed could be parlayed into a bevy of deep routes in order to open things up underneath. He is one of the fastest people on the team and his ability to fight for the ball is something the coaches can use more. But the enduring question remains: Does Rodgers trust him? Stay tuned. "


There are numerous articles with respect to Jeff Janis' struggles in camp last season. Multiple journalists and bloggers mentioned Janis' route tree and route running, none mentioned his difficulty with reading defenses. Why? Is it that Janis was succeeding in this department last season? Or was it that Janis' other deficiencies took the lion share of the focus. If the Coaches were literally so focused with the basic mechanics of route running, catching the ball over his shoulder, and even being in the right place at the right time then yes there's a very good reason for the coaches to put blinders on the player. With developmental prospects coaching staff typically prefer to focus the player's lesson load. Get them to master or atleast become competent in particular areas of their game before having them focus on other elements of their game, you don't work on reading the defense with a guy who doesnt even have an NFL route tree.

The charge is that Janis is making the same mistakes, well where are the articles discussing his inability to read defenses back in July and August?

 

[gopkrs]

Well, I hope Rodgers isn't such a perfectionist that he refuses to understand what players are doing out there just because he wants everything to be perfect. Though I admit that last year those guys just were not getting open. Maybe we need a little more free for all every once in awhile.

 

[gopkrs]

Look at Brady. Not everything is friggin timing.

 

[RRyder]

This from last year,

"He's a big guy so some of the routes cater to him," Van Pelt said. "Some of the routes we run where there's a lot of sudden change in movements, they just don't fit the bigger players.

"Not to say that he's not a great vertical threat and can run the post and hook. It's just the build of the body."

Janis dominated the Division II Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference, where cornerbacks get on the field with 4.65 to 4.7-second 40s.

The Packers have worked with Janis to be more physical in escaping press-man coverage from much speedier cornerbacks, and there's tape of him doing exactly that.

"He has days where you come out there and say, 'Man, he's just throwing guys around,'" Van Pelt said. "Because he's being physical and using his strength. That's what you like to see."

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...struggling-in-camp-b99555431z1-321698201.html


From Cheesehead Tv

"Intangibles/misc: Janis is an intriguing case study. He was called out all season by head coach Mike McCarthy or Aaron Rodgers. His route running was poor, but after the NFC Divisional Playoff, it was clear that Janis could play and was being vastly underutilized. His straight-line speed could be parlayed into a bevy of deep routes in order to open things up underneath. He is one of the fastest people on the team and his ability to fight for the ball is something the coaches can use more. But the enduring question remains: Does Rodgers trust him? Stay tuned. "


There are numerous articles with respect to Jeff Janis' struggles in camp last season. Multiple journalists and bloggers mentioned Janis' route tree and route running, none mentioned his difficulty with reading defenses. Why? Is it that Janis was succeeding in this department last season? Or was it that Janis' other deficiencies took the lion share of the focus. If the Coaches were literally so focused with the basic mechanics of route running, catching the ball over his shoulder, and even being in the right place at the right time then yes there's a very good reason for the coaches to put blinders on the player. With developmental prospects coaching staff typically prefer to focus the player's lesson load. Get them to master or atleast become competent in particular areas of their game before having them focus on other elements of their game, you don't work on reading the defense with a guy who doesnt even have an NFL route tree.

The charge is that Janis is making the same mistakes, well where are the articles discussing his inability to read defenses back in July and August?

So your point is he's progressed because new and exciting mistakes are being committed and reported?

Evidence of absence is not a absence of evidence for him not committing the mistakes earlier. Unless you're taking it on faith.

 

[adambr2]

I definitely agree Janis needs to show progression in basic route running and understanding to even be considered for an increased role in the offense.

However, I don't hear much early on that makes me optimistic that Adams is going to be our best 3rd option, either. Separation was a major issue for him last season, and sounds like it is so far in camp once again. If we're going to criticize Janis for a lack of improvement in his areas, which is fair, I don't think it's unfair to be concerned about Adams for some of the same drawbacks he had last year.

There's still a ton of time left for all of them, but if Adams can't separate from defenders, he's pretty useless to us. It wouldn't shock me if a dark horse not named Adams or Janis ends up as the #3 WR on the depth chart when the regular season commences.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

There are numerous articles with respect to Jeff Janis' struggles in camp last season. Multiple journalists and bloggers mentioned Janis' route tree and route running, none mentioned his difficulty with reading defenses.

The charge is that Janis is making the same mistakes, well where are the articles discussing his inability to read defenses back in July and August?

It's truly ridiculous to assume Janis has made significant progress because he's making mistakes reading a defense as it's part of running the correct route!!!

Well, I hope Rodgers isn't such a perfectionist that he refuses to understand what players are doing out there just because he wants everything to be perfect.

Rodgers will for sure not target a wide receiver consistently running the wrong routes, leading to incompletions or interceptions.

I definitely agree Janis needs to show progression in basic route running and understanding to even be considered for an increased role in the offense.

However, I don't hear much early on that makes me optimistic that Adams is going to be our best 3rd option, either. Separation was a major issue for him last season, and sounds like it is so far in camp once again. If we're going to criticize Janis for a lack of improvement in his areas, which is fair, I don't think it's unfair to be concerned about Adams for some of the same drawbacks he had last year.

Adams and Janis struggling early in training camp has me concerned as well, especially as the Packers don't have another experienced receiver on the roster best suited to play on the outside opposite of Nelson.