Clay Matthews Should Be Cut

[C-Lee]

He’s not “the man” anymore, but still a very good football player. I think he’ll be nice next season once again.

 

[Dantés]

He’s not “the man” anymore, but still a very good football player. I think he’ll be nice next season once again.

It will be nice to have him for one last season as his replacement is groomed.

 

[OldSchool101]

Getting rid of Clay at this juncture doesn't net us an improvement. Also Clay (and nearly any superior pass rusher) is at his best when paired with another significant tandem rusher on a regular basis (see; the Derrick Thomas story with K.C.) Perry was thought to be that guy but has not lived up to expectations and is too oft injured. GB needs another substantial pass rusher opposite Clay and then you'll see him flourish.

The writing on the wall seems to be to improve this defense in 2 stages (most likely it will take 2018/2019) so far the first stage has been to improve with upfront pressure. That theory is the "best bang for the buck" when you have Cap limitations (both $$ and CB thin drafts) There was also a noteable lack of FA Corners that were considered "difference makers". Then carry that forward to the draft and by pick #14 it's likely the top 2-3 Corners are gone by pick #14. It's just plain not a good year for elite CB additions as far as our current cap and draft position. You have 6 teams in front of us who have listed CB as one of their top 2 primary needs, the only reason it's not even a worse postition at CB in the draft is because 2 of those teams will pick at QB and/or RB in the top 5.

Therefore, I believe the best short term use of limited Cap (and solid draft capital but in a thin CB market) ...continuing to add pressure up front early (erasing Clay does not meet that requirement and assuming Landry will flourish day 1 is taking a massive risk) which at some point we will need to fix anyway this year or next. Then using that draft capital to trade up (if necessary) for a couple Corners in the top 4 rounds or so.
There are 2 ways to skin a cat.

 

[Half Empty]

Getting rid of Clay at this juncture doesn't net us an improvement. Also Clay (and nearly any superior pass rusher) is at his best when paired with another significant tandem rusher on a regular basis (see; the Derrick Thomas story with K.C.) Perry was thought to be that guy but has not lived up to expectations and is too oft injured. GB needs another substantial pass rusher opposite Clay and then you'll see him flourish.

Julius Peppers? Wasn't he supposed to make Clay fearsome again?

 

[hallzi43]

Julius Peppers? Wasn't he supposed to make Clay fearsome again?

Led him to an 11 sack season in 2014. 2015 we had to move him over to middle linebacker because we had nothing better there. 2016 he spent plagued with injuries.

 

[sschind]

Matthews is getting a similar treatment that AJ Hawk was getting. With Hawk people were saying he wasn't worth the 5th over all pick and they never looked strictly at his production. Had he been a 4th rounder everyone would have been happy. Well, after a players first year or two it really doesn't matter anymore were they were drafted. They are what they are. Kinda like using combine results for 8 year veterans.

With Matthews its similar. Because he is not playing up to his cap hit he is not worth keeping around. His play is tied to his cap hit and sometimes you just can't do that. If Clay was making half everyone would be happy.

Now granted its somewhat different in that once a guy is drafted it really doesn't affect anyone else on the team whereas a guy taking up Clay's cap space does affect others on the team but it is similar.

 

[hallzi43]

Matthews is getting a similar treatment that AJ Hawk was getting. With Hawk people were saying he wasn't worth the 5th over all pick and they never looked strictly at his production. Had he been a 4th rounder everyone would have been happy. Well, after a players first year or two it really doesn't matter anymore were they were drafted. They are what they are. Kinda like using combine results for 8 year veterans.

With Matthews its similar. Because he is not playing up to his cap hit he is not worth keeping around. His play is tied to his cap hit and sometimes you just can't do that. If Clay was making half everyone would be happy.

Now granted its somewhat different in that once a guy is drafted it really doesn't affect anyone else on the team whereas a guy taking up Clay's cap space does affect others on the team but it is similar.

Hawk was actually a guy who was expendable. I don't think Matthews is similar by any means. A lot of people want to talk about him like he is but also fail to realize what the trend in the NFL. You don't pay a ton of money to every guy who has athleticism. Edge rushers are some of the highest paid players and they don't just grow on trees. So you lose Matthews there is zero guarantees that Landry or Davenport are going to be any good. Definitely no guarantee that anyone beyond that are gonna be any good.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It's time to cut him. He is not an impact defender anymore. The TD pass from Newton to McCaffrey when we got eliminated from the playoffs by Carolina sums up what he is now. All bark no bite. He called out the wrong route, Cam made fun of him pre-snap, then Clay got sonned like a little kid by the left tackle/tripped and fell down. He wasn't a factor on the play and probably confused Josh Jones in the process of trying to be a "leader". I'd like to put Clay's $11 million cap # towards making Aaron happy with his impending mega-extension and go get Harold Landry to be a cheaper, younger, better replacement via the draft. Thoughts?

It's ludicrous to suggest it might be a great idea to release the best pass rusher on the team, especially as there's no other player capable of adequately replacing him. I agree that Matthews is overpaid but the Packers definitely need to hold on to him for this season.

He is our best LB whether you like to hear that or not. Replacing him on 2018 with a pass rusher who is going to need to develop is probably not wise. Especially when you consider he is also probably our best inside linebacker as well.

While Matthews excels as a pass rusher lining up at inside linebacker overall he's average at the position at best.

Pay attention-we can simply wait till the summer to trade Nick and save $8M. Cutting Clay now adds another 11. Why not save that money while going to get some young studs who can actually bend the edge and pressure the QB consistently on rookie deals?

The Packers would lose $8 million of cap space by trading Perry. It doesn't matter when this move would be made.

I'm in full agreement.

You know you're in trouble once Eli agrees with you.

I am not saying cut Blake or anything. But people overstate his performance last season and it doesn't hurt him that the next guy in line is Jake Ryan.

Martinez definitely isn't an elite inside linebacker but is an above average player at the position.

He won’t agree, that’s the point, and will move on to disappoint and underachieve on the next team. Very compelling facts your bring up, so you want me to believe that nobody else is capable of playing olb or “edge” position in the entire ******* nfl so let’s just continue to hold on to him for the sake of keeping him. TT being too incompetent to find a replacement over the last how many years is no longer valid. The lines of “there’s nobody else” and “who else you got” are no longer valid. Wake up there are plenty of guys out there, this team was just too complacent with what they had to make a ******* move. The benefits to the packers would be simple not hanging on to the same guy and expecting different results out of him, let’s face it there is only 1 way for Matthews to return to the “glory days” however they do tests for that stuff....

There's no a single impact edge rusher available in free agency. The Packers might be able to trade for a player at the position but would definitely have to give up significant draft capital to acquire an outside linebacker capable of adequately replacing Matthews. In addition other teams aren't keen on giving up players like that.

There was also a noteable lack of FA Corners that were considered "difference makers". Then carry that forward to the draft and by pick #14 it's likely the top 2-3 Corners are gone by pick #14. It's just plain not a good year for elite CB additions as far as our current cap and draft position. You have 6 teams in front of us who have listed CB as one of their top 2 primary needs, the only reason it's not even a worse postition at CB in the draft is because 2 of those teams will pick at QB and/or RB in the top 5.

Therefore, I believe the best short term use of limited Cap (and solid draft capital but in a thin CB market) ...continuing to add pressure up front early (erasing Clay does not meet that requirement and assuming Landry will flourish day 1 is taking a massive risk) which at some point we will need to fix anyway this year or next. Then using that draft capital to trade up (if necessary) for a couple Corners in the top 4 rounds or so.
There are 2 ways to skin a cat.

In my opinion there were several intriguing veteran cornerbacks available in free agency this offseason. Unfortunately the Packers weren't able to sign one of them.

Led him to an 11 sack season in 2014. 2015 we had to move him over to middle linebacker because we had nothing better there. 2016 he spent plagued with injuries.

You have to realize that Matthews racked up 8.5 sacks while lining up at inside linebacker in 2014.

 

[sschind]

Hawk was actually a guy who was expendable. I don't think Matthews is similar by any means. A lot of people want to talk about him like he is but also fail to realize what the trend in the NFL. You don't pay a ton of money to every guy who has athleticism. Edge rushers are some of the highest paid players and they don't just grow on trees. So you lose Matthews there is zero guarantees that Landry or Davenport are going to be any good. Definitely no guarantee that anyone beyond that are gonna be any good.

I knew I wasn't really getting my point across. I don't think their situations are similar either, I meant the way people are talking about them. Hawk wasn't worth the #4 pick so we should cut him (or he was a bust or whatever they are saying). Matthews isn't worth his price tag so we should cut him. They are tying performance to one other aspect (Hawk draft position, Matthews price tag) and ignoring the others. They are not looking at the big picture.

In Hawks case they are ignoring the fact that he was a solid contributor. He was a great team mate, he took some hits financially to stay with the team etc and focusing on the fact that he never lived up to being the #5 pick overall. Like I said had he been anything but a 1st round pick I think the vasts majority of fans who view him negatively (he was a bust etc) would look on him much differently. In Matthews case they are looking at what his cost is relative to his performance and not taking into consideration he is our best pass rusher and we have no one to replace him and the money we save , or a good chunk of it anyway will simply need to go to replace him thus the actual savings won't be as much as people think.

Hopefully that clear up what I meant.

 

[thequick12]

It will be nice to have him for one last season as his replacement is groomed.

I would not at all be surprised if he is resigned after this season. The only problem I see is that I predict he'll have double digit sacks in Mike pettines defense this year which may make his price too high for the team to reasonable retain him

 

[XPack]

Under the new DC, we will see a big improvement. Also we need to play him outside.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Under the new DC, we will see a big improvement. Also we need to play him outside.

Matthews should definitely line up primarily on the outside but it makes sense to move him around occasionally.

 

[AmishMafia]

It's ludicrous to suggest it might be a great idea to release the best pass rusher on the team, especially as there's no other player capable of adequately replacing him. I agree that Matthews is overpaid but the Packers definitely need to hold on to him for this season.



While Matthews excels as a pass rusher lining up at inside linebacker overall he's average at the position at best.



The Packers would lose $8 million of cap space by trading Perry. It doesn't matter when this move would be made.



You know you're in trouble once Eli agrees with you.



Martinez definitely isn't an elite inside linebacker but is an above average player at the position.



There's no a single impact edge rusher available in free agency. The Packers might be able to trade for a player at the position but would definitely have to give up significant draft capital to acquire an outside linebacker capable of adequately replacing Matthews. In addition other teams aren't keen on giving up players like that.



In my opinion there were several intriguing veteran cornerbacks available in free agency this offseason. Unfortunately the Packers weren't able to sign one of them.



You have to realize that Matthews racked up 8.5 sacks while lining up at inside linebacker in 2014.

I see these posts of yours and I have to ask. Did you wife limit how many posts you get in a day?

I am in a wait see mode. I think the biggest addition we could possibly make to this defense was firing Capers. I am anxious to see how much of an impact Pettine has on these supposedly bad players.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Why do we need Clay's cap space? Who would we sign right now that we need that space for?

We still don't have anybody to replace him, the only rookie who could come in right away and suitability replace him would be Chubb (and I love Landry btw). This just isn't logical. He's got a year left, then we can sign a new contract or just move on.

None of this makes any sense to me.

Cap carry over trumps the argument. 11 mil this year is still 11 mil next year...

And Mathews stats over the last few years would not be hard to replace...

Mixing up the roster involves moving on from stagnant, or declining players. Mathews is no 15+ sack a year guy like he was supposed to be when we gave him the dang near 15 MIL a yr deal...

I'm convinced we could add a day 2 rookie. A veteran over the hill type like Brooks last year. And the guys we have like biegel, fackrell, Gilbert... hopefully perry can stay healthy. And we only have one spot to be concerned about...

Look at next year's free agents... #12 needs a deal. Haha is a sure keeper now that we let Burnett go. There's others too I know.

 

[swhitset]

I knew I wasn't really getting my point across. I don't think their situations are similar either, I meant the way people are talking about them. Hawk wasn't worth the #4 pick so we should cut him (or he was a bust or whatever they are saying). Matthews isn't worth his price tag so we should cut him. They are tying performance to one other aspect (Hawk draft position, Matthews price tag) and ignoring the others. They are not looking at the big picture.

In Hawks case they are ignoring the fact that he was a solid contributor. He was a great team mate, he took some hits financially to stay with the team etc and focusing on the fact that he never lived up to being the #5 pick overall. Like I said had he been anything but a 1st round pick I think the vasts majority of fans who view him negatively (he was a bust etc) would look on him much differently. In Matthews case they are looking at what his cost is relative to his performance and not taking into consideration he is our best pass rusher and we have no one to replace him and the money we save , or a good chunk of it anyway will simply need to go to replace him thus the actual savings won't be as much as people think.

Hopefully that clear up what I meant.

There are two kinds of people in here... those that understand this... and those who don't lol.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I see these posts of yours and I have to ask. Did you wife limit how many posts you get in a day?

LOL, that hasn't come up in any conversation with her ..... at least not yet I'm doing it that way as I think it would be more annoying for most of you having to read several consecutive posts from me in a thread.

Cap carry over trumps the argument. 11 mil this year is still 11 mil next year...

And Mathews stats over the last few years would not be hard to replace...

Mixing up the roster involves moving on from stagnant, or declining players. Mathews is no 15+ sack a year guy like he was supposed to be when we gave him the dang near 15 MIL a yr deal...

I'm convinced we could add a day 2 rookie. A veteran over the hill type like Brooks last year. And the guys we have like biegel, fackrell, Gilbert... hopefully perry can stay healthy. And we only have one spot to be concerned about...

The Packers couldn't adequately replace Matthews with a day 2 rookie, an over the hill veteran as well as the edge rushers currently on the roster though.

 

[rodell330]

At this point I probably wouldn’t release Matthews...but I’d definitely suggest he take a pay cut. The ONLY reason I wouldn’t cut him is because of the “unknown”. We don’t know how good Vince Beagle is, we don’t know what week Perry will get hurt (but we know he will get hurt at some point), nor do we know at this point if they decide to go pass rusher at #14, and move Matthews inside?? I think if Beagle or Fakrell emerge during camp and or in pre season ?? then I’d revisit the ideal of cutting Matthews I’d he soeant do anything this season.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

At this point I probably wouldn’t release Matthews...but I’d definitely suggest he take a pay cut. The ONLY reason I wouldn’t cut him is because of the “unknown”. We don’t know how good Vince Beagle is, we don’t know what week Perry will get hurt (but we know he will get hurt at some point), nor do we know at this point if they decide to go pass rusher at #14, and move Matthews inside?? I think if Beagle or Fakrell emerge during camp and or in pre season ?? then I’d revisit the ideal of cutting Matthews I’d he soeant do anything this season.

The Packers not having another proven edge rusher aside of Perry results in Matthews having all of the leverage if the team approaches him about restructuring his contract though.

 

[Dantés]

It’s amazing to me that, after last year, when the Packers’ foolishly went into the season without any solid, veteran depth at OLB, people think that they could cut Matthews without real consequences. They need to add behind him and develop a replacement... not cut him with no alternative just to save some space that they can’t do anything with. They can’t use it this offseason, they don’t need it next offseason; they need pass rush now.

 

[Dantés]

At this point I probably wouldn’t release Matthews...but I’d definitely suggest he take a pay cut. The ONLY reason I wouldn’t cut him is because of the “unknown”. We don’t know how good Vince Beagle is, we don’t know what week Perry will get hurt (but we know he will get hurt at some point), nor do we know at this point if they decide to go pass rusher at #14, and move Matthews inside?? I think if Beagle or Fakrell emerge during camp and or in pre season ?? then I’d revisit the ideal of cutting Matthews I’d he soeant do anything this season.

Even if they do go pass rusher at #14, it would be very good for that player not to have to be thrust into a full time role right away. Let them focus on passing downs for a season and develop while they still have Matthews.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It’s amazing to me that, after last year, when the Packers’ foolishly went into the season without any solid, veteran depth at OLB, people think that they could cut Matthews without real consequences. They need to add behind him and develop a replacement... not cut him with no alternative just to save some space that they can’t do anything with. They can’t use it this offseason, they don’t need it next offseason; they need pass rush now.

The Packers could definitely use $11 million of cap space either this or next offseason. I agree that the team is in no position to release Matthews at this point because they don't have any player capable of adequately replacing him on the roster.

 

[Dantés]

I would not at all be surprised if he is resigned after this season. The only problem I see is that I predict he'll have double digit sacks in Mike pettines defense this year which may make his price too high for the team to reasonable retain him

I would be pretty surprised. I guess we don’t know how this FO will diverge, but it hasn’t been their way to give new deals to guys at his age.

My guess is that Clay will play about 14 games and have 6-8 sacks.

 

[rodell330]

Even if they do go pass rusher at #14, it would be very good for that player not to have to be thrust into a full time role right away. Let them focus on passing downs for a season and develop while they still have Matthews.

Which is the exact reason why I said at SEASONS END.

 

[Dantés]

The Packers could definitely use $11 million of cap space either this or next offseason. I agree that the team is in no position to release Matthews at this point because they don't have any player capable of adequately replacing him on the roster.

What would you do with it this offseason at this point?

Next offseason they’re currently slated to have around 60M depending on what the cap ceiling does. I don’t think they need more given how they seem to want to operate.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Which is the exact reason why I said at SEASONS END.

Matthews is set to become a free agent after this season therefore the Packers wouldn't have to release him to part ways with him.