Aaron Jones on this team

[tynimiller]

I guess for me, the whole purpose of the draft, is for teams to obtain the rights to employ a pool of players for 4-5 seasons. A pool that consists roughly of 200+ players. The first 180+ players selected are pretty much guaranteed to be drafted and get their shot in the NFL, it is just a matter of which team that shot is with. Each team is initially given 7 draft picks and each pick has a certain value to it for what it represents. So it is the job of a GM to invest those limited resources in players that will better their team and ultimately give them a positive return on their investment. GM's aren't trying to find talent in an endless pool of bodies , they are picking talent from a known pool of players and trying to find those players that best fit their teams future needs.

To give a GM credit for investing resources in a player that doesn't end up being a good investment for the team, but later goes somewhere else and flourishes is like a participation trophy to me. "Hey good job buddy, you were the one that picked him, he just didn't work out for your team, but hey, look what he's doing for the other team, he's awesome!"

Your example of Favre is actually a good one to prove this point. Falcons GM Ken Herock invested the 33rd pick in the 1991 draft in Favre. Smart GM, smart pick? It may have been, but for the Falcons, we will never know. Jerry Glanville was dead set against drafting Favre and basically put him on ice because of it. So Herock decides he isn't going to fight with Glanville and trades Favre to GM Ron Wolf. Which GM was the smarter one in this situation? Which GM should receive credit for knowing the value of Favre?

Evaluate a player, for what he does for his whole career. Evaluate a GM for what he does for his/her team, with the resources that he has at his disposal.

Why does the GM and his scouting department get the shaft though?? They identified an NFL worthy player and the coaches failed to deploy perhaps?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Why does the GM and his scouting department get the shaft though?? They identified an NFL worthy player and the coaches failed to deploy perhaps?

For the same reasons that a GM gets credit for a player that he obtains (draft, trade, FA, etc.) that excels for his team?

There are all sorts of reasons that a player doesn't work out for a team. So yes, while there are some "excuses" that can be made for a GM for drafting picks that don't pan out, the first question you have to ask is; "Why didn't said player pan out?". If its due to injury, then yeah, not really anyone's fault, just bad luck. Isn't the GM at the top of the hierarchy and making the drafting and hiring decisions for a team? A Football GM is supposed to sort through all the data and plug in the best pieces that he feels will all work together. If he drafts a player that doesn't mesh with the team/coaches, who's to blame? If you want to blame the coaches, who is ultimately in charge of them?

@OldSchool101 example of Favre and the Falcons bears this out. Sure, Herock recognized talent in Favre, but his HC (Glanville) absolutely didn't want Favre and proved that after he was drafted. Someone saying "Herock was a brilliant GM, he knew just how good Favre might be", isn't telling the whole story. Yes, Herock drafted a player that he saw potential in. However, you would be more correct if you said "Herock was an idiot, he drafted a FHOF QB and then traded him away. Favre would have eventually been drafted by another team, actually, possibly with the next pick by the Jets GM, Ron Wolf. The Jets didn't have a 1st round pick that year and Wolf absolutely loved Favre. How History for 3 teams may have changed, had the Falcons passed on Favre and Wolf selected him.

 

[tynimiller]

That's where we differ, the discussions are far more nuanced I believe than what you look at them as. Which is why whenever anyone starts discussions on historical picks and attempting to do a grading has to provide their thought process because as you and I have illustrated there will be picks which justifiably deserve an A grade AND a D depending on what your grading.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That's where we differ, the discussions are far more nuanced I believe than what you look at them as. Which is why whenever anyone starts discussions on historical picks and attempting to do a grading has to provide their thought process because as you and I have illustrated there will be picks which justifiably deserve an A grade AND a D depending on what your grading.

Very much so. One should define if they are grading the value of the pick, the player or the GM?

When I grade a "Draft class", I essentially see it as grading each players impact on the team (that selected them) and then giving an overall grade to the GM that was in charge of that draft. A full draft grade can't really be given until all the players in that draft are with other teams or out of football.

I don't look at the Packers 2017 draft, which was conducted by TT and say "Man, Gute did a bad job with that class!" The success or failure of that class was on TT and his scouts. Overall, I give TT a D grade on that draft class. However, individually, I grade Aaron Jones as an A+ 5th round pick and a B for grabbing Jamaal Williams in the 4th. Now Aaron Jones, himself, remains an "A" "player in the NFL. He was for the Packers and he continued to be for the Vikings. I would give Viking GM Kwesi Adofo-Mensah an A+ grade for signing Jones to the contract that he did. Might even give Gute a D for letting Jones walk away.

If Gute and the Packers give up on Josh Myers and don't resign him, what will you give Gute as a Grade on selecting Myers? What will you give Myers as an overall grade as a player, thus far? Will either of those grades change in a year, if Myers is a Pro Bowl player for a new team in 2025?

 

[tynimiller]

Very much so. One should define if they are grading the value of the pick, the player or the GM?

When I grade a "Draft class", I essentially see it as grading each players impact on the team (that selected them) and then giving an overall grade to the GM that was in charge of that draft. A full draft grade can't really be given until all the players in that draft are with other teams or out of football.

I don't look at the Packers 2017 draft, which was conducted by TT and say "Man, Gute did a bad job with that class!" The success or failure of that class was on TT and his scouts. Overall, I give TT a D grade on that draft class. However, individually, I grade Aaron Jones as an A+ 5th round pick and a B for grabbing Jamaal Williams in the 4th. Now Aaron Jones, himself, remains an "A" "player in the NFL. He was for the Packers and he continued to be for the Vikings. I would give Viking GM Kwesi Adofo-Mensah an A+ grade for signing Jones to the contract that he did. Might even give Gute a D for letting Jones walk away.

If Gute and the Packers give up on Josh Myers and don't resign him, what will you give Gute as a Grade on selecting Myers? What will you give Myers as an overall grade as a player, thus far? Will either of those grades change in a year, if Myers is a Pro Bowl player for a new team in 2025?

Oooo Myers is the perfect recent example of the differences...if GB extends Myers to a second contract you're grading in how you typically view it would increase that grading...mine really wouldn't change at all still in that B- type range for me and extending or not won't change that.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Oooo Myers is the perfect recent example of the differences...if GB extends Myers to a second contract you're grading in how you typically view it would increase that grading...mine really wouldn't change at all still in that B- type range for me and extending or not won't change that.

If Myers is extended, his draft grade won't change (for me) until we see what the Packers continue to get out of him. Nor will his player grade change (for me), until there is new data to possibly change it.

Now if the Bears sign him, I could give Gute a final grade for drafting him and what the return on the investment was.

Side note:

Looks like the Jets are basically purging themselves of everything Packers. Rodgers, Adams, Lazard and Hackett are all being reported as all but gone from the organization.

 

[tynimiller]

If Myers is extended, his draft grade won't change (for me) until we see what the Packers continue to get out of him. Nor will his player grade change (for me), until there is new data to possibly change it.

Now if the Bears sign him, I could give Gute a final grade for drafting him and what the return on the investment was.

Side note:

Looks like the Jets are basically purging themselves of everything Packers. Rodgers, Adams, Lazard and Hackett are all being reported as all but gone from the organization.

I saw Lazard and truthfully believe he or MVS for very different reasons could be EXCELLENT third tier FA acquisitions that firm up our teams floor/depth.

I especially like a cheap Lazard signing if their is any fruit from the tree of "Doubs is on way out"