Valdes-Scantling

[gbgary]

mvs had a good game.

 

[jhawk008]

He's a #3 WR at the moment.. he's for sure still a "go route" player at this point, but hopefully he will get better

 

[Mavster]

mvs had a good game.

Sarcasm?? If you’re being serious I’m not sure what game you had on tv

 

[AKCheese]

So MVS is “good for a 5th round pick”.... so what? We need WR’s that are good PERIOD. If Adams is out any length of time? We could be 5-5 at the Bye

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

i'm a fantasy football numbnut but i even know you shouldn't play anyone in the Packers O right now...except maybe aaron jones as he seems to score td's. am i wrong?

I had him in my flex position. Maybe should have started Marvin Jones Jr. from Det instead in retrospect. MVS was pretty much a non-factor. Gave me 7 points which is average for a player like him, slightly below. If he had caught 1 TD pass it would have been worth it

 

[greengold]

I love MVS and think he can become a high quality WR with more development. However, he needs to make more catches. The knock on him, while lightning fast for his size, is that he only converts somewhere around 50% or less of his targets into receptions.

If I'm not mistaken, Davante Adams' lowest mark was around 52%. Posted numbers in an earlier thread but pretty sure this is correct, or very close.

Geronimo, by comparison is closer to 60% or more, I believe. It is not always the fast 40 time that gives you production. That's why I would really like to see a bigger dose of Darrius Shepherd in the slot.

Hopefully, MVS can focus on winning possession of the targets he gets. Last night he was 3 of 7 for 47 yds, a 15.7 average, with no TDs.

Can someone corroborate the last play to him that was intercepted? I thought for certain Jones, the PHI defender, wrapped his arms around MVS, locking his arms before the ball got there...

Within 2 minutes, we are left to count on the officials reviewing those plays to insure they are correctly called, as there are no challenges allowed. I think they blew that one and it should have been a PI, giving us another shot.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Hopefully, MVS can focus on winning possession of the targets he gets. Last night he was 3 of 7 for 47 yds, a 15.7 average, with no TDs.

Stats are what we look at in the aggregate because we simply can't recall all the details about every player's every snnp across any time span. However, here, we can take a look at one particular player's performance while it is fresh. Rather than look at from the perspective of fantasy, how about we look at from the perspective of actual football, two very different things?

Overall, I'm not going to complain about the PI non-calls since they gave King a pass in whacking Jeffery's hand and the PI call going to Graham inside the final 2 minutes was pretty chippy. But the fact of the matter is 9 out of 10 officiating crews would call that 3rd. quarter non-call on MVS a PI and New York would not have been inclined to overrule the call on the field. Suffice it to say, consistency in these calls was lacking.

So here's the breakdown of MVS's 7 targets:

1. Short pass right for 3 yards; face mask call on Brown for an additional 15 yards. First down.

2. High throw to the back of the end zone from the 13 yard line on a scramble with Rodgers moving up and right out of the pocket. The ball goes off MVS's finger tips. He had full extension with defender contact.

3. The non-PI call. 9 out of 10 times that's a 25 yard penalty.

4. Again, a scramble up and right out of the pocket. MVS adjusts his route. 26 yard completion over the middle.

5. A sideline vertical route with tight coverage and checking by the CB. It looks like that CB gave him shove just before the ball arrived, another borderline PI. The timing was off as a result. The ball ended up ovethrown as MVS dove for. It might have been too far out of bounds to make the catch regardless. This might have been the one throw of the night where MVS was first in the progression with Rodgers looking to him all the way. Adams was out; that would have been his route.

6. Nice catch on a ball thrown behind him on a skinny post. 17 yards.

7. The fateful game ending interception. The way the game is officiated these days, that was a 50/50 PI non-call. In real time, it looks bang-bang. In slo-mo it's clear he was being wrapped up before the ball arrived.

Now, your fantasy stats, or any stats I've ever seen for that matter, don't account for penalties drawn or committed. Which O-linemen in this league are most often called for holding, hands to the face, presnap movement? Which edge rushers get called most for offsides, roughing, hands to the face? What are the costs of these penalties? Or, in this case, which receivers draw the most PI and holding calls?

In any event, of the 4 incomplete targets to MVS, 3 involved contact before the ball arrived, all possible PI calls in another place and time. And if got the first and last of them, they wouldn't show up in his fantasy stats anyway even if Philly cornerbacks found it necessary to mess with him before the ball arrived.

 

[greengold]

Stats are what we look at in the aggregate because we simply can't recall all the details about every player's every snnp across any time span. However, here, we can take a look at one particular player's performance while it is fresh. Rather than look at from the perspective of fantasy, how about we look at from the perspective of actual football, two very different things?

Overall, I'm not going to complain about the PI non-calls since they gave King a pass in whacking Jeffery's hand and the PI call going to Graham inside the final 2 minutes was pretty chippy. But the fact of the matter is 9 out of 10 officiating crews would call that 3rd. quarter non-call on MVS a PI and New York would not have been inclined to overrule the call on the field. Suffice it to say, consistency in these calls was lacking.

So here's the breakdown of MVS's 7 targets:

1. Short pass right for 3 yards; face mask call on Brown for an additional 15 yards. First down.

2. High throw to the back of the end zone from the 13 yard line on a scramble with Rodgers moving up and right out of the pocket. The ball goes off MVS's finger tips. He had full extension with defender contact.

3. The non-PI call. 9 out of 10 times that's a 25 yard penalty.

4. Again, a scramble up and right out of the pocket. MVS adjusts his route. 26 yard completion over the middle.

5. A sideline vertical route with tight coverage and checking by the CB. Looks like that CB gave him shove before the ball arrived. The timing was off as a result. The ball ended up ovethrown as MVS dove for. It was perhaps too far out of bounds to make the catch regardless. This might have been the one throw of the night where MVS was first in the progression with Rodgers looking to him all the way. Adams was out; that would have been his route.

6. Nice catch on a ball thrown behind him on a skinny post. 17 yards.

7. The fateful game ending interception. The way the game is officiated these days, that was a 50/50 PI non-call. In real time, it looks bang-bang. In slo-mo it's clear he was being wrapped up before the ball arrived.

Now, your fantasy stats, or any stats I've ever seen for that matter, don't account for penalties drawn or committed. Which O-linemen in this league are most often called for holding, hands to the face, presnap movement? Which edge rushers get called most for offsides, roughing, hands to the face? What are the costs of these penalties? Or, in this case, which receivers draw the most PI and holding calls?

In any event, of the 4 incomplete targets to MVS, 3 involved contact before the ball arrived, all possible PI calls in another place and time.

Yeah, I was just alluding to that very same thing in another thread. Had he not been interfered with twice he would have had a really nice game. Those no calls killed us. Helped to anyway.

Thanks for corroborating that HRE.

BTW, better angles of it are all over Twitter right now. Clear Pass Interference. NO CALL. Add to that it was a turnover play, and all of them are supposed to be reviewed...

 

[HardRightEdge]

I continue to see chatter about MVS's drops this season. I have not seen one.

Through Week 3, neither has NBC Sports, and there wasn't one in this game:

https://scores.nbcsports.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

Ditto for the Washington Post:

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&rank=232&type=Receiving

Fox Sports has him down for one through week 4:

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats...&opp=0&sort=11&qualified=1&sortOrder=0&page=3

Did they charge him for the one off his fingertips at the back of the end zone this week? Or the interception play? If so, my response would be, "sheesh".

See what's there, not what you want to see. When a receiver or the ball is whacked as the ball arrives that is not a drop. That's what you'll find upon closer examination of those so-called drops. The defenders made plays. If he makes that catch it is a great play.

As for MVS being only a vertical threat, I direct you to targets 4 and 6 in the post above. He also might be a Rodgers new favorite on the scramble drill where Cobb made his money once upon a time. See targets 2 and 4 above.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Those no calls killed us. Helped to anyway.

Thanks for corroborating that HRE.

Thanks, but that wasn't actually my point, the "killing us" part. Calls went both ways. I have to agree with LaFleur--who knows what PI is anymore?

I'm was just illustrating what MVS and his defenders were doing as the ball arrives. Philly's corners saw the need to shove him or whack him on several occasions. That says something for the receiver even if it doesn't show up in the box score.

Now, he's not the second coming of Julio Jones. But he could add more strength and get some hand checking technique, ***-for-tat just this side of the law, to keep those guys off his body.

 

[rodell330]

A#3 wr. The end

 

[greengold]

Thanks, but that wasn't actually my point, the "killing us" part. Calls went both ways, as I noted. As for the calls, I'd say I have to agree with LaFleur--who knows what PI is anymore?

I'm was just illustrating what MVS and his defenders were doing as the ball arrives. Philly's corners saw the need to shove him or whack him on several occasions. That says something for the receiver even if it doesn't show up in the box score.

Now, he's not the second coming of Julio Jones. But he could add more strength and get some hand checking technique, ***-for-tat just this side of the law, to keep those guys off his body.

Totally agree. He's coming around nicely. Just in year 2 of development. HUGE jump from last year is evident though. Yeah, just meant corroborating the PI call. Twitter is LOADED with other, better angles than what I had recorded last night. WOW. Unbelievable that they didn't even review, on a change of possession play inside 2 min. Something is rotten in Denmark.

 

[greengold]

A#3 wr. The end

And, what was Davante in his 2nd year?

Everybody wants everything now, and it is just unrealistic. We have receiving talent that just happens to be unproven in NFL regular season games or developing a little more than a year or two in.

 

[HardRightEdge]

A#3 wr. The end

This from a guy who wants to sign Dez Bryant. Jerry Rice looks pretty nimble in those Copper Fit ads with Favre. How about him?

 

[rodell330]

This from a guy who wants to sign Dez Bryant. Jerry Rice looks pretty nimble in those Copper Fit adds with Favre. How about him?

I’ve never really been high in signing Dez. I’m sure i wasn’t serious when I said it. But ok,pal.

 

[gbgary]

Sarcasm?? If you’re being serious I’m not sure what game you had on tv

got him and allison mixed up.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The fans demand that all WRs be as good as Julio Jones, and just as quickly (well, 5th round picks are allowed to be as good as Calvin Ridley by their second year). The idea that receivers need time to develop, while true, is not fun and therefore can be ignored by all! Just look at Davante Adams; he was a true stud #1 WR in his second year, am'i'right?

 

[HardRightEdge]

I’ve never really been high in signing Dez. I’m sure i wasn’t serious when I said it. But ok,pal.

You wrote this just yesterday, pal.

"They are 100% going to have to trade for a wr now AND call Dez Bryant."

Is that for an invitation to tea?

 

[HardRightEdge]

I continue to see chatter about MVS's drops this season. I have not seen one.

Through Week 3, neither has NBC Sports, and there wasn't one in this game:

https://scores.nbcsports.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

Ditto for the Washington Post:

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&rank=232&type=Receiving

Fox Sports has him down for one through week 4:

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats...&opp=0&sort=11&qualified=1&sortOrder=0&page=3

Did they charge him for the one off his fingertips at the back of the end zone this week? Or the interception play? If so, my response would be, "sheesh".

See what's there, not what you want to see. When a receiver or the ball is whacked as the ball arrives that is not a drop. That's what you'll find upon closer examination of those so-called drops. The defenders made plays. If he makes that catch it is a great play.

As for MVS being only a vertical threat, I direct you to targets 4 and 6 in the post above. He also might be a Rodgers new favorite on the scramble drill where Cobb made his money once upon a time. See targets 2 and 4 above.

Funny thing. Last night, over the course of 3 plays and 13 seconds, the Rams had two bad drops as they were trying to move into position for the winning FG. First Kupp on a flat out drop. Then Everett hearing footstops over the middle has it go off his hands for an INT. These were uncontested balls with separation.

Is there anything like this in MVS's tape this season? Nope.

The moral of the story is if you are going to hate on a guy be sure you are (1) not applying a standard of perfection that would not apply to some other preconceived favorite and (2) hate on him for the right reasons.

 

[Mondio]

Funny thing. Last night, over the course of 3 plays and 13 seconds, the Rams had two bad drops as they were trying to move into position for the winning FG. First Kupp on a flat out drop. Then Everett hearing footstops over the middle has it go off his hands for an INT. These were uncontested balls with separation.

Is there anything like this in MVS's tape this season? Nope.

The moral of the story is if you are going to hate on a guy be sure you are (1) not applying a standard of perfection that would not apply to some other preconceived favorite and (2) hate on him for the right reasons.

nobody has been hating on MVS. if they have I haven't seen it. He catches the balls that should be caught. I'd like to see him start making the catches that regular guys usually miss, but the playmakers make with a fair amount of regularity. Instead of saying, ahhhh that would have been a tough catch, I want to start saying, "awesome catch" a little more often.

and we've seen Jordy drop them wide open down the field defender 2 yards behind and off his hands. But then we've seen the defender in the face hands on the ball and Jordy win that catch more than a handful of times too. There's a difference.

 

[HardRightEdge]

nobody has been hating on MVS. if they have I haven't seen it. He catches the balls that should be caught. I'd like to see him start making the catches that regular guys usually miss, but the playmakers make with a fair amount of regularity. Instead of saying, ahhhh that would have been a tough catch, I want to start saying, "awesome catch" a little more often.

and we've seen Jordy drop them wide open down the field defender 2 yards behind and off his hands. But then we've seen the defender in the face hands on the ball and Jordy win that catch more than a handful of times too. There's a difference.

I've seen repeated references to MVS's "drops". I'm hammering home a point here. See what's there, not what some confirmation bias says is there.

MVS's reach-back catch in the danger zone in the Eagles game was outstanding. "Awesome" catches, by my standards, are uncommon regardless of the receiver.

 

[OldSchool101]

Can someone corroborate the last play to him that was intercepted? I thought for certain Jones, the PHI defender, wrapped his arms around MVS, locking his arms before the ball got there...

I froze the replay once Eagles #39 had both arms fully wrapped around Marquez to a point it was clearly interference.. the ball was approximately 2-3 yards away in the air. It was a bad non call because it decided the game.

Marquez needs to have a banner day. If he gets interfered with again like that, it’s getting called 3 of 4 times. Id like to send him on a few long routes and take a shot deep.. but I don’t think they care what I think

 

[HardRightEdge]

I froze the replay once Eagles #39 had both arms fully wrapped around Marquez to a point it was clearly interference.. the ball was approximately 2-3 yards away in the air. It was a bad non call because it decided the game.

Marquez needs to have a banner day. If he gets interfered with again like that, it’s getting called 3 of 4 times. Id like to send him on a few long routes and take a shot deep.. but I don’t think they care what I think

Viewed in super slow-mo it was clearly interference. But when you watch it in real time it is bang-bang and few refs will make a game-alterning call in the closing seconds unless it is so blatent it can't be avoided. It's a reality one has had to live with. Next week it might go your way.

The irony is that the PI review process was implemented because of precisely that situation--a ref no-call in the closing seconds of a playoff game. Personally, I think the outrage was overdone as that pass could have plausibly been deemed uncatchable. But forget that. We have automatic review now.

These new PI and non-PI reviews are done in the booth inside 2 minutes. This implies they are scrutinizing every pass play. If they have concerns that the wrong call or wrong non-call was made, they will refer it to New York for review. New York then uses their "proprietary NFL Vision software to isolate the best angles for consulting with replay officials and referees".

https://operations.nfl.com/the-officials/these-officials-are-really-good/nfl-instant-replay-process/

To digress, if you think that NFL Vision AI stuff is bullsh*t you'd be correct. Anyway, New York has the final say on reviews referred to them.

In this case, however, the play was not referred to New York for review. There wasn't any play stoppage or announcement of a review. The booth official had no uncertainty about the non-call. So, as with so many NFL rule changes and un-changes or reinterpretations, we're back where we started, at least in part. See "what is a catch?", which finally and thankfully is back where it was before they started messing with it after trying to justify the bad Megatron call.

Now, instead of a field referee not wanting to make a call on a bang-bang game-changing play in the closing seconds, it was the booth official not wanting to have it reviewed in New York. We're back where we started.

So, as in the past, don't expect anything to change on those bang-bang plays in the closing seconds. If a ref misses something so blatent there is no other choice but to review, then you'll see it. It's the way it has been on bang bang plays and so it shall continue to be. I'm pretty much OK with that. I'm not OK with the league trying to sell me something that's not there.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Here's an update after taking a closer look at his one target in Week 10, reviewed in sad detail at the end of this post. I don't think he's been on the injury report with the knee/ankle the last two weeks. It looks like he's being phased out.

Week 8: 2 targets, 1 catch, 4 yards
Week 9: 2 target, 0 catches
Week 10: 1 target, 0 catches

The Week 10 snap counts were:

Adams: 54
Allison: 42
Lazard: 30
Kumerow: 23
MVS: 11

One game might be a question of game plan, matchups or some undisclosed minor injury. This is not appear to be that.

Over the last 7 games, MVS's targets have been progressively 70, 70, 57, 20 (knee/ankle), 43, 37, 11. Other than the week he was reported to be dinged up, it's worth noting his snaps were in decline from a full boat and then continuing with Adams return in Week 9 (45 of 54) and Week 10 (54 of 68)

Kumerow started getting meaningful snaps in Week 5 (50) with Adams out; Lazard in Week 7 (51) with Adams still out and MVS hobbled.

With Adams back in Weeks 9 and 10, Shepherd gone, and all hands on deck, the combined snaps for those last two games were:

Adams: 99
Allison: 77
Lazard: 55
MVS: 48
Kumerow: 36

As for the one target in Week 10, it was a deep ball on 3rd. and 12 at 13:34 in the 2nd. quarter. Rodgers has all the time he needs in a clean pocket. MVS runs a go route up the numbers. The corner is in 10 yards off coverage and MVS flies by him anyway with a couple of steps of separation.

When Rodgers lets the ball go, the high safety is flat-footed way over on the hash. A throw down the numbers or a little outside the numbers to wide open acreage and it's 6 points with margin for error. Rodgers underthrows the ball right at the safety, MVS throws on the breaks to adjust to the ball, and then it's a contested incompletion.

As a staunch defender of Aaron Rodgers through the dark days, I can say this was a terrible throw, one of his worst deep balls in my recollection. It seems most of his worst deep throws are in MVS's direction, underthrows and overthrows. There seems to remain a chemistry/calibration problem that goes beyond the route running. It's disappointing to say the least. But you can't change the QB so you have to look to other options.

 

[lambeaulambo]

stop making sense...its a disgrace to pfic's image LOL