The Unsung Linchpin of 2023

[milani]

Yes and that’s Exactly what I inferred. IMO our O Lineup in 2022 was not ideal last season. I believe we have a better mix on board to get those best 5. I’m not there every day, but I think there is a magical combination we already own that would pop.

And I think back to the Jets game when they shredded our OL.

 

[milani]

I think Ray Nistchke was one of the largest players on the roster for a while. He went about 6'3" and 235#. Kramer and Thurston had him by 10#. In the 70's size started to increase.


https://www.the-hogs.net/blogs/the-hogs/

Yes, that change was an evolution. Jerry Kramer once said that the Packers had a lineup filled with 6'3" 245 LB. players both on offense and defense or thereabouts.

 

[OldSchool101]

I'm worried that Rodgers made the offensive line look better than it actually is. If there's any truth to it Love might not have enough time to successfully throw the ball on many plays.

Um. This is just… for once in my life I’m at a loss for words.

 

[milani]

Um. This is just… for once in my life I’m at a loss for words.

There may have been times over the years where he has done that although he was always known to hold the ball too long as well. Now #4 did make his OL look better in a sequence of different years when he was here. Also threw a lot more picks as well.

 

[OldSchool101]

There may have been times over the years where he has done that although he was always known to hold the ball too long as well. Now #4 did make his OL look better in a sequence of different years when he was here. Also threw a lot more picks as well.

Sure. There are times that QB’s help their OL and times when the OL helps their QB. That whole business about hoping our QB can get passes off regularly is just totally ridiculous. I know it a relative low point in the season and all and not much going on, but we can’t really be that timid of a fan base that we’ve stooped to worrying that Jordan isn’t going to get many passes off. That’s what he said and maybe we’re just tired or haven’t slept in several days idk.
I’ve seen some low evaluations of Love, but that right there takes the cake.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Um. This is just… for once in my life I’m at a loss for words.

Do you honestly believe the Packers having a HOF quarterback under center who was exceptional in reading defenses didn't help out our offensive line?

That whole business about hoping our QB can get passes off regularly is just totally ridiculous. I know it a relative low point in the season and all and not much going on, but we can’t really be that timid of a fan base that we’ve stooped to worrying that Jordan isn’t going to get many passes off. I’ve seen some low evaluations of Love, but that right there takes the cake.

It might be smart to go back and watch that Chiefs game once again. How much time did Jordan have to throw all those passes in that one?

BTW, this is once again not a knock on Love. But it's unrealistic to expect him to overcome possible shortcomings on the offensive line in his first year as a starter the same way a future HOFer did.

 

[Mondio]

Rodgers can't run like he could, but heck if he can't manipulate blockers and rushers in the pocket as good or better than anyone else in the league still. Couple that with his experience and knowledge of defense, he could diagnose plays before they started and adapt accordingly. He was and is still one of the best ever in the league at that. It helps the offensive line, how couldn't it?

Our offensive line better step up in a big way in terms of growth and continuity this year or we could be in for a world of hurt.

 

[OldSchool101]

Do you honestly believe the Packers having a HOF quarterback under center who was exceptional in reading defenses didn't help out our offensive line?

It wasn’t that it was you eluding to Jordan might not be able to throw passes.

It might be smart to go back and watch that Chiefs game once again. How much time did Jordan have to throw all those passes in that one?

BTW, this is once again not a knock on Love. But it's unrealistic to expect him to overcome possible shortcomings on the offensive line in his first year as a starter the same way a future HOFer did

You do realize Jordan outperformed Mahomes in that 2021 game don’t you? Similarly condemning Pat Mahomes for that 1 game would get you laughed out of most forums.

Btw. How did Mahomes do in his first start?
22/35 284 yards
0TD
1 INT
76.4%Passer

I suppose we should’ve written him off. He’s lucky he’s even gotten a Pass off since after that type performance.

 

[lambeaulambo]

I think Ray Nistchke was one of the largest players on the roster for a while. He went about 6'3" and 235#. Kramer and Thurston had him by 10#. In the 70's size started to increase.


https://www.the-hogs.net/blogs/the-hogs/

Larry McCarren needs to do something about that finger - drives me nuts every time I see it it reminds me of Rich Campbell Whitehurst and Randy Wright...what a nightmare.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It wasn’t that it was you eluding to Jordan might not be able to throw passes.

I literally said successfully throw the ball. If he ends up being under pressure for a lot of dropbacks like he was against the Chiefs he will have a hard time putting up solid numbers.

You do realize Jordan outperformed Mahomes in that 2021 game don’t you? Similarly condemning Pat Mahomes for that 1 game would get you laughed out of most forums.

Btw. How did Mahomes do in his first start?
22/35 284 yards
0TD
1 INT
76.4%Passer

I suppose we should’ve written him off. He’s lucky he’s even gotten a Pass off since after that type performance.

I don't care about Mahomes having an off game as he has proven to be an elite quarterback. Love is still a complete unknown at this point though.

 

[milani]

It wasn’t that it was you eluding to Jordan might not be able to throw passes.



You do realize Jordan outperformed Mahomes in that 2021 game don’t you? Similarly condemning Pat Mahomes for that 1 game would get you laughed out of most forums.

Btw. How did Mahomes do in his first start?
22/35 284 yards
0TD
1 INT
76.4%Passer

I suppose we should’ve written him off. He’s lucky he’s even gotten a Pass off since after that type performance.

The QBs were not impressive that day. But their ST clearly outperformed ours.

 

[OldSchool101]

I don't care about Mahomes having an off game as he has proven to be an elite quarterback. Love is still a complete unknown at this point though.

You just made Exactly my point. A QB’s first NFL start had absolutely 0% to do with their long term outlook. Matter of fact you just relayed to us that they could even become “elite”
So essentially you’ve admitted it’s clearly possible for Jordan to become elite because it’s recently happened by your own testimony.

 

[Heyjoe4]

You just made Exactly my point. A QB’s first NFL start had absolutely 0% to do with their long term outlook. Matter of fact you just relayed to us that they could even become “elite”
So essentially you’ve admitted it’s clearly possible for Jordan to become elite because it’s recently happened by your own testimony.

I don't follow your reasoning OldSchool. Mahomes is an elite QB (few would argue he isn't, even though "elite" is subjective). What does that have to do with the possibility that Love will or could become elite? The two - Mahomes and Love, or Mahomes and any QB, aren't logically related - well except that they are indeed QBs.

I guess your argument is that if a QB achieves elite status of play then another QB is also capable of elite performance. Not a very useful argument. What am I missing here?

 

[Poppa San]

What am I missing here?

If I followed the twists and turns of the thread correctly I think he is stating that even the elite have crappy games and one's first starting game should not define the career.

 

[Heyjoe4]

If I followed the twists and turns of the thread correctly I think he is stating that even the elite have crappy games and one's first starting game should not define the career.

That makes sense. Thanks.

 

[OldSchool101]

That makes sense. Thanks.

Can you imagine if we used Jordan Love’s very first NFL appearance and he played great and then got signed to a lucrative, record breaking contract and fully guaranteed? We’d think our GM was crazy.

How about if we drafted and signed a Day 1 selection and then cut him after 1 game? We’d think the team was absolutely nutty.

I don’t see that 2021 GBP vs KC game any different. I also don’t consider Mahomes first 2017 appearance as a proper measuring tool for his worth.
Imo evaluation is like a good experiment. It’s imperative to have an adequate sample size before forming a proper evaluation. 1 game is nowhere in the stratosphere of properly forming a valid analysis.

So with that thought, it seems logical to me to ask why? Why would a Packer fan use 1 KC game to repeatedly argue how poor Love is? Also why would Captain use the 1/2 Eagles contest as a means to reduce Jordan Love’s solid performance. No. I believe Captain is too smart to say he thinks 1 start is enough evidence to make some grand proclamation. It doesn’t add up unless there is an ulterior motive. So the detective in me is naturally looking for the source of that motivation is all.

Now a Captain sympathizer just spoke to he didn’t like the draft selection? Which is fine but odd, because I didn’t initially like the draft choice either. Yet Jordan being drafted (instead of WR) has absolutely 0% bearing in his worth, good or bad. So I guess I’m arguing that imo that sympathizer and Captains evaluation is then biased (due to wanting a WR) If this was a science experiment we’d call that contaminated results. We should evaluate Jordan on a reasonable sample size and not based on the fact we wanted to do the experiment on something else altogether.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Can you imagine if we used Jordan Love’s very first NFL appearance and he played great and then got signed to a lucrative, record breaking contract and fully guaranteed? We’d think our GM was crazy.

How about if we drafted and signed a Day 1 selection and then cut him after 1 game? We’d think the team was absolutely nutty.

I don’t see that 2021 GBP vs KC game any different. I also don’t consider Mahomes first 2017 appearance as a proper measuring tool for his worth.
Imo evaluation is like a good experiment. It’s imperative to have an adequate sample size before forming a proper evaluation. 1 game is nowhere in the stratosphere of properly forming a valid analysis.

So with that thought, it seems logical to me to ask why? Why would a Packer fan use 1 KC game to repeatedly argue how poor Love is? Also why would Captain use the 1/2 Eagles contest as a means to reduce Jordan Love’s solid performance. No. I believe Captain is too smart to say he thinks 1 start is enough evidence to make some grand proclamation. It doesn’t add up unless there is an ulterior motive. So the detective in me is naturally looking for the source of that motivation is all.

Now a Captain sympathizer just spoke to he didn’t like the draft selection? Which is fine but odd, because I didn’t initially like the draft choice either. Yet Jordan being drafted (instead of WR) has absolutely 0% bearing in his worth, good or bad. So I guess I’m arguing that imo that sympathizer and Captains evaluation is then biased (due to wanting a WR) If this was a science experiment we’d call that contaminated results. We should evaluate Jordan on a reasonable sample size and not based on the fact we wanted to do the experiment on something else altogether.

I think you're better off replying to Capt than me. I'm not even sure what the issue is here. I was just trying to understand the discussion. Papa San's reply was perfect IMO, short and to the point.

 

[OldSchool101]

I think you're better off replying to Capt than me. I'm not even sure what the issue is here. I was just trying to understand the discussion. Papa San's reply was perfect IMO, short and to the point.

I did reply to Captain in post #62 above.
Then you replied to the post I replied to Captain in post #63.

“I guess your argument is that if a QB achieves elite status of play then another QB is also capable of elite performance. Not a very useful argument. What am I missing here?”

You just replied directly to my post with this question and I answered your question (albeit I was a bit verbose) now you’re telling me not to reply to you that I should tell Captain

 

[Schultz]

Can you imagine if we used Jordan Love’s very first NFL appearance and he played great and then got signed to a lucrative, record breaking contract and fully guaranteed? We’d think our GM was crazy.

How about if we drafted and signed a Day 1 selection and then cut him after 1 game? We’d think the team was absolutely nutty.

I don’t see that 2021 GBP vs KC game any different. I also don’t consider Mahomes first 2017 appearance as a proper measuring tool for his worth.
Imo evaluation is like a good experiment. It’s imperative to have an adequate sample size before forming a proper evaluation. 1 game is nowhere in the stratosphere of properly forming a valid analysis.

So with that thought, it seems logical to me to ask why? Why would a Packer fan use 1 KC game to repeatedly argue how poor Love is? Also why would Captain use the 1/2 Eagles contest as a means to reduce Jordan Love’s solid performance. No. I believe Captain is too smart to say he thinks 1 start is enough evidence to make some grand proclamation. It doesn’t add up unless there is an ulterior motive. So the detective in me is naturally looking for the source of that motivation is all.

Now a Captain sympathizer just spoke to he didn’t like the draft selection? Which is fine but odd, because I didn’t initially like the draft choice either. Yet Jordan being drafted (instead of WR) has absolutely 0% bearing in his worth, good or bad. So I guess I’m arguing that imo that sympathizer and Captains evaluation is then biased (due to wanting a WR) If this was a science experiment we’d call that contaminated results. We should evaluate Jordan on a reasonable sample size and not based on the fact we wanted to do the experiment on something else altogether.

Just in case I am the Capt. sympathizer in your post, which I am sure I am not based on the fact that I have never said anything about drafting a WR instead of Love. As a matter of fact, I have never weighed in on who I would have picked instead. What I have been very consistent about is that I hated the position being picked in a trade up in the 1st round. Secondly, I have yet to comment on how I think Love will do, good, bad, or somewhere in between. What I have consistently said is that GB would have a better chance of winning games and making the playoffs with AR as their QB. Since I obviously am not who you are speaking of, I will refrain from commenting about putting words in someone's mouth.

 

[milani]

I don't follow your reasoning OldSchool. Mahomes is an elite QB (few would argue he isn't, even though "elite" is subjective). What does that have to do with the possibility that Love will or could become elite? The two - Mahomes and Love, or Mahomes and any QB, aren't logically related - well except that they are indeed QBs.

I guess your argument is that if a QB achieves elite status of play then another QB is also capable of elite performance. Not a very useful argument. What am I missing here?

" Elite " can indeed be subjective. The speculation here is achievement. And that means numbers which is not subjective. Does Love have the potential to put up Mahommes numbers? No matter what we believe the possibility is still there at this point even though few believe it will happen. And we do not know the bottom line for Mahommes who still has possibly another 12 years in the league whereas Aaron Rodgers does not.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I did reply to Captain in post #62 above.
Then you replied to the post I replied to Captain in post #63.

“I guess your argument is that if a QB achieves elite status of play then another QB is also capable of elite performance. Not a very useful argument. What am I missing here?”

You just replied directly to my post with this question and I answered your question (albeit I was a bit verbose) now you’re telling me not to reply to you that I should tell Captain

I'm completely lost and regret having jumped into this. Papa San and milani have made some good, clarifying comments, easy to understand.

I will close by saying I hope Love has a great year. I think some of us have had our doubts and/or never liked the pick, and now the argument can be settled by Love's performance and the performance of the whole team. For me at least, I'm looking forward to this season. Check back with me around Thanksgiving, but Gluten has put together a young and apparently talented team. Again, we'll see what happens, instead of all this speculation (including by me).

 

[Heyjoe4]

" Elite " can indeed be subjective. The speculation here is achievement. And that means numbers which is not subjective. Does Love have the potential to put up Mahommes numbers? No matter what we believe the possibility is still there at this point even though few believe it will happen. And we do not know the bottom line for Mahommes who still has possibly another 12 years in the league whereas Aaron Rodgers does not.

That's well said milani, thanks.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You just made Exactly my point. A QB’s first NFL start had absolutely 0% to do with their long term outlook. Matter of fact you just relayed to us that they could even become “elite”
So essentially you’ve admitted it’s clearly possible for Jordan to become elite because it’s recently happened by your own testimony.

Dude, you truly need to step up your reading comprehension. I will give it another try to explain it to you.

I have never made any statement about how Love will end up working out as an NFL quarterback. NEVER!!! Up until now none of us has a large enough sample size to make an educated guess about it. His performance against the Chiefs cleary indicated he needs to improve reading opposing defenses though. If he's able to do that he could definitely become an elite QB. If he can't he won't last long as a starter in the league though. Do I know if he's capable of doing it? Absolutely not. Do you have any idea about it? No, you don't either.

Therefore I advocate to wait and see how he fares this season before making any definite statements about his outlook as an NFL quarterback.

I don’t see that 2021 GBP vs KC game any different. I also don’t consider Mahomes first 2017 appearance as a proper measuring tool for his worth.
Imo evaluation is like a good experiment. It’s imperative to have an adequate sample size before forming a proper evaluation. 1 game is nowhere in the stratosphere of properly forming a valid analysis.

So with that thought, it seems logical to me to ask why? Why would a Packer fan use 1 KC game to repeatedly argue how poor Love is?

Once again, show me a single post in which I have mentioned that Love is a poor quarterback. It's true that his inability to read the Chiefs' defense that day is reason for concern though.

Also why would Captain use the 1/2 Eagles contest as a means to reduce Jordan Love’s solid performance. No. I believe Captain is too smart to say he thinks 1 start is enough evidence to make some grand proclamation. It doesn’t add up unless there is an ulterior motive. So the detective in me is naturally looking for the source of that motivation is all.

For the umpteenth time, I haven't made any proclamation on how Love will end up working out at all.

 

[OldSchool101]

Just in case I am the Capt. sympathizer in your post, which I am sure I am not based on the fact that I have never said anything about drafting a WR instead of Love. As a matter of fact, I have never weighed in on who I would have picked instead. What I have been very consistent about is that I hated the position being picked in a trade up in the 1st round. Secondly, I have yet to comment on how I think Love will do, good, bad, or somewhere in between. What I have consistently said is that GB would have a better chance of winning games and making the playoffs with AR as their QB. Since I obviously am not who you are speaking of, I will refrain from commenting about putting words in someone's mouth.

Just for the record. In the 2020 draft
I didn’t want a QB either and I’m being truthful on that.

That said, the way the board fell?
WR were selected at
#12
#15
#17
#21
#22
#25

No other WR was drafted in Day 1 after #25 overall and that 7 teams passed on the crop left at WR to choose a different position.
I’m about 96.8341% sure the Packers would NOT draft at WR using #30 overall or in a similar trade up there.

So, that leaves us now most likely picking WR using #62 or later (remember that the Packers LOVE them some 2nd Round WR)
In your opinion, Which WR would we have selected at #62 overall? Btw There isn’t one

Tee Higgins was someone’s very best argument at being a Bonafide SB contender? His 908 yards were likely his WR1 ceiling as he was paired with Joe Burrow. With GB he’d be WR2 at best and competing for looks with Davante Adams at WR1.
Very, very low chances Tee Higgins as WR2 puts us to a status of better than the 2020 Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Fast forward to our 2021 ST, it was so bad they (did) could take down an entire playoff run.

Michael Pittman? Arguable a step below Higgins (strike 2)
Shenault? (Strike 3)
Denzel Mims? (Strike 4).

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Just for the record. In the 2020 draft
I didn’t want a QB either and I’m being truthful on that.

That said, the way the board fell?
WR were selected at
#12
#15
#17
#21
#22
#25

No other WR was drafted in Day 1 after #25 overall and that 7 teams passed on the crop left at WR to choose a different position.
I’m about 96.8341% sure the Packers would NOT draft at WR using #30 overall or in a similar trade up there.

So, that leaves us now most likely picking WR using #62 or later (remember that the Packers LOVE them some 2nd Round WR)
In your opinion, Which WR would we have selected at #62 overall? Btw There isn’t one

Tee Higgins was someone’s very best argument at being a Bonafide SB contender? His 908 yards were likely his WR1 ceiling as he was paired with Joe Burrow. With GB he’d be WR2 at best and competing for looks with Davante Adams at WR1.
Very, very low chances Tee Higgins as WR2 puts us to a status of better than the 2020 Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Fast forward to our 2021 ST, it was so bad they (did) could take down an entire playoff run.

Michael Pittman? Arguable a step below Higgins (strike 2)
Shenault? (Strike 3)
Denzel Mims? (Strike 4).

I'll always enjoy the posts that posit a WR in 2020 would have only helped a little bit while defending the pick that didn't help at all. For the record, Higgins would have been #2 behind Adams but would have also been #2 WAY AHEAD of Lazard (same with Pittman). Higgins on that team vs the Bucs makes the offense much more dynamic and, when the Bucs focused their entire defense on Adams, the Packers would have had a legit WR as a different option.


It's past so let's just hope Love can justify his selection in 2020 and make posters like myself eat crow.