The Aaron Rodgers performance thread

[Heyjoe4]

A quarterback doesn't have the time to search the entire field for an open receiver on most plays though. That's why it's of utmost importance for a wide receiver to be in the expected spot.

By the time a QB has gone through his reads and he’s looking for #3, he’s got an Edge rusher, ILB, DL, or some combination of the three breathing down his neck. If that 3rd option isn’t going where he’s supposed to be going, the QB runs or throws the ball away.

 

[gopkrs]

Several reasons why you should, but the two biggest are:

1. Your route may not be designed to get you open, but someone else. You might clear out a safety, take double coverage, or otherwise influence the play.

2. If you are number 3 or 4 in the progression, the quarterback doesn't have time to find you, he's going to look for you where he expects you to be. Even if you are covered, the quarterback might want you to be his throw away guy. You cut off your route, you're not in the area, and boom, intentional grounding.

Do. Your. Job. Don't freelance.

When #1 is the case; I sure hope the receiver knows that is what is going on.

 

[gopkrs]

I don't think you're really understanding the way option routes work.

I don't think there is anything real difficult about it. Hopefully the new receivers coach will do a great job and all our guys will be able to run routes that get them open. Or the option.

 

[GleefulGary]

I don't think there is anything real difficult about it. Hopefully the new receivers coach will do a great job and all our guys will be able to run routes that get them open. Or the option.

Option routes are pretty difficult. QB and WR have to be on the same page, before the throw.

Remember, the QB is throwing where the WR will be/should be, not where they are.

 

[mradtke66]

I don't think there is anything real difficult about it. Hopefully the new receivers coach will do a great job and all our guys will be able to run routes that get them open. Or the option.

It's not difficult, but so much practice goes into it that the quarterback and WR have to agree on the read and make the same silent adjustment.

It's not free lancing, it's changing a deep-in into a corner based on man vs. zone, cover 1 vs 3 vs quarters, cornerback positioning, etc. Quarterback says "man-2", WR says "cover-3" and just like that, you have a ball going to a corner so directly it'll look like he was the number 1 read.

The theory behind option routes is quite simple. The practical application of it is extremely difficult.

 

[gopkrs]

It's not difficult, but so much practice goes into it that the quarterback and WR have to agree on the read and make the same silent adjustment.

It's not free lancing, it's changing a deep-in into a corner based on man vs. zone, cover 1 vs 3 vs quarters, cornerback positioning, etc. Quarterback says "man-2", WR says "cover-3" and just like that, you have a ball going to a corner so directly it'll look like he was the number 1 read.

The theory behind option routes is quite simple. The practical application of it is extremely difficult.

You know, I just am not buying that Aaron is throwing to the supposed definite place where the option is supposed to be if it isn't open. That's why he doesn't throw many ITs. A lot of DBs are very good at disguising their coverage until the play is underway. Hence, I think a bit of flexibility is a good thing. But I agree that the receiver has to understand enough not to interfere with other receivers' routes. Sometimes when I would see Edelman run to a space and Brady throws it there; I think "look at that big open space that won't be open for much longer but is a plenty big space right now." And both Brady and Edelman see the space and Edelman heads for it and Brady throws it inside that area to hit Edelman on the run. I don't think the call in the huddle was for Edelman to get between the 20 and the 30 yard line and about 15 to 25 yards from the sideline. I just think Edelman ran to where they weren't and Brady threw it to him.

 

[GleefulGary]

You know, I just am not buying that Aaron is throwing to the supposed definite place where the option is supposed to be if it isn't open. That's why he doesn't throw many ITs. A lot of DBs are very good at disguising their coverage until the play is underway. Hence, I think a bit of flexibility is a good thing. But I agree that the receiver has to understand enough not to interfere with other receivers' routes. Sometimes when I would see Edelman run to a space and Brady throws it there; I think "look at that big open space that won't be open for much longer but is a plenty big space right now." And both Brady and Edelman see the space and Edelman heads for it and Brady throws it inside that area to hit Edelman on the run. I don't think the call in the huddle was for Edelman to get between the 20 and the 30 yard line and about 15 to 25 yards from the sideline. I just think Edelman ran to where they weren't and Brady threw it to him.

Wow.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

You know, I just am not buying that Aaron is throwing to the supposed definite place where the option is supposed to be if it isn't open. That's why he doesn't throw many ITs. A lot of DBs are very good at disguising their coverage until the play is underway. Hence, I think a bit of flexibility is a good thing. But I agree that the receiver has to understand enough not to interfere with other receivers' routes. Sometimes when I would see Edelman run to a space and Brady throws it there; I think "look at that big open space that won't be open for much longer but is a plenty big space right now." And both Brady and Edelman see the space and Edelman heads for it and Brady throws it inside that area to hit Edelman on the run. I don't think the call in the huddle was for Edelman to get between the 20 and the 30 yard line and about 15 to 25 yards from the sideline. I just think Edelman ran to where they weren't and Brady threw it to him.

I think you're on to something.

Quarterbacks have favorite receivers, because they trust them. Trust has to be earned. Brady trusted Edelman, Rodgers trusts Adams.

And until another Packer receiver can do what Adams does for Rodgers, they can expect to get the ball less than he does.

 

[mradtke66]

You know, I just am not buying that Aaron is throwing to the supposed definite place where the option is supposed to be if it isn't open. That's why he doesn't throw many ITs. A lot of DBs are very good at disguising their coverage until the play is underway. Hence, I think a bit of flexibility is a good thing.

Sometimes when I would see Edelman run to a space and Brady throws it there; I think "look at that big open space that won't be open for much longer but is a plenty big space right now." And both Brady and Edelman see the space and Edelman heads for it and Brady throws it inside that area to hit Edelman on the run. I don't think the call in the huddle was for Edelman to get between the 20 and the 30 yard line and about 15 to 25 yards from the sideline. I just think Edelman ran to where they weren't and Brady threw it to him.

This leads me to believe that you do not know what option routes are.

Option routes are not true "options." The offense in general or specific playcalls has rules that dictate the route. Logic like "Start with a POST. If A, turn it into an IN. If B, turn it into a CORNER." Etc. It is not freelancing.

Sometimes when I would see Edelman run to a space and Brady throws it there; I think "look at that big open space that won't be open for much longer but is a plenty big space right now." And both Brady and Edelman see the space and Edelman heads for it and Brady throws it inside that area to hit Edelman on the run. I don't think the call in the huddle was for Edelman to get between the 20 and the 30 yard line and about 15 to 25 yards from the sideline. I just think Edelman ran to where they weren't and Brady threw it to him.

Without seeing film, I suspect that is unlikely. There are a few options though:

1. It really was called that way. Could be a stick or curl route.

2. The defense ran zone coverage. In such a situation, the receiver has the responsibility to sit in the hole in the zone. All zones have holes.

3. They performed their version of a scramble drill and just "got open."

That said, 3 is still not free lancing. There are rules for scramble drills. Something like "work to the sideline," and "work back to the quarterback." Sure, you can run a GO if your coverman falls down, but those are exceptions. Put your hand up and go.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

It's not difficult, but so much practice goes into it that the quarterback and WR have to agree on the read and make the same silent adjustment.

It's not free lancing, it's changing a deep-in into a corner based on man vs. zone, cover 1 vs 3 vs quarters, cornerback positioning, etc. Quarterback says "man-2", WR says "cover-3" and just like that, you have a ball going to a corner so directly it'll look like he was the number 1 read.

The theory behind option routes is quite simple. The practical application of it is extremely difficult.

This I believe is some of what CaptainWIMM was hinting at in terms of WRs catching on. I think some of our WRs like MVS for example are not quite getting their instincts in tune with Rodgers on these option routes.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

I wouldn't say Favre was a better quarterback. I think Favre and Rodgers are both great quarterbacks, I like them both, I've always liked them both, they're just very different. Both have their pros and cons. I see Favre as more of a leader because it seems to me like he would keep team morale higher than Rodgers - at least when he was in his prime, and before the diva bug bit him too bad. Part of that is body language.

Nowhere did I say Rodgers is a BAD leader though. But if I was keeping score on a sheet, I would give Favre the edge there.

When you put it that way OK, sounds reasonable enough.

I think what's got some of us a bit riled up was that so many fans here kept insisting that it was all Rodgers who got MM fired, and looking at the big picture I think that's ridiculous. I could make the same argument that Favre got both Sherman and Childress fired even if unintentional. He usually had this im the smartest guy in the room going all the way back to Holmgren.

 

[OldSchool101]

There’s another aspect I’m not seeing here of WR route running And job duties. It’s also the QB and the WR both understanding the Defenders position and making last sec adjustments to the designed play.
If the defender has been repeatedly playing more aggressive, inside and underneath.. that throw is coming over the top and away. If the defender is repeatedly playing the inside and against long ball well into the route? that pass gets thrown underneath n back shoulder away. That timing takes years to perfect.
Also many plays break down due to pressure (as said earlier) and the WR then has to improvise on the fly, often directional hand signaling or coming back to the ball some etc..
I guess what I’m saying is there’s a lot to be said for continuity between passer and receiver. Much of that is resolved with time together and in practice. That’s why it’s rare to see first year Wideouts kill it. Unless they just have superior athletic skills it generally takes them 2-3 seasons to gel. I believe this is a big part of why GB didn’t pick a WR after taking Love. There was no one left outside the top #50 that would provide an instant answer and selecting one would cover up 3rd year players in Lazard, EQ, MVS, etc.. From a team building perspective, you don’t subscribe to draft n develop and then work against the grain be covering up everything you invested. It would be like betting against yourself.

Aaron Rodgers is much better equipped to make those reads and throws, but the Receivers (less Adams) thus far have been underprepared because they’re just trying to learn the massive numbers of route trees. Route nuances come with route mastery and repetition. Also didn’t help there was a new scheme install and everything changed.

I know that’s not a popular answer for fans to why the disconnect and we like instant mashed potatoes. But we kinda all knew it was a new install with newer Receivers. Innately, we are just not patient enough by nature to wait and watch the flowers blossom in time. It’s easier to run up to the store and get them in full bloom (at full price)

4100 yards and 26TDs in a brand new install with just 1 established veteran Receiver (who also missed time) and an old, slower washed up Veteran Flex TE was actually damn good IMO. Thank the Lordcwe had 2 veteran RBs proficient in the passing game!
I think you can expect to see a 5-10% increase this season. The most valuable part will be a continuation of many of the same concepts and at minimum 4-5 WR’s who are in year 2 of said install.

I’ll say one last thing and shut up. If this push to improve the Run game works? If GB becomes a true blue dual faceted Offense? It’ll be most interesting to watch us game plan and punish opponents on the ground that aren’t shown to be proficient in stopping the Run by mid season or so. Also there’s something to be said for being legit at both Passing AND Running the ball come December and beyond.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

There’s another aspect I’m not seeing here of WR route running And job duties. It’s also the QB and the WR both understanding the Defenders position and making last sec adjustments to the designed play.
If the defender has been repeatedly playing more aggressive, inside and underneath.. that throw is coming over the top and away. If the defender is repeatedly playing the inside and against long ball well into the route? that pass gets thrown underneath n back shoulder away.
Also many plays break down due to pressure (as said earlier) and the WR then has to improvise on the fly, often directional hand signaling or coming back to the ball some etc..
I guess what I’m saying is there’s a lot to be said for continuity between passer and receiver. Much of that is resolved with time together and in practice. That’s why it’s rare to see first year Wideouts kill it. Unless they just have superior athletic skills it generally takes them 2-3 seasons to gel. I believe this is a big part of why GB didn’t pick a WR after taking Love. There was no one left outside the top #50 that would provide an instant answer and selecting one would cover up 3rd year players in Lazard, EQ, MVS, etc.. From a team building perspective, you don’t subscribe to draft n develop and then work against the grain be covering up everything you invested. It would be like betting against yourself.

Aaron Rodgers is much better equipped to make those reads and throws, but the Receivers (less Adams) thus far have been underprepared because they’re just trying to learn the massive numbers of route trees. Route nuances come with route mastery and repetition. Also didn’t help there was a new scheme install and everything changed.

I know that’s not a popular answer for fans to why the disconnect, but we kinda all knew it was a new install with newer Receivers. Innately, we are just not patient enough by nature to wait and watch the flowers blossom in time. It’s easier to run up to the store and get them in full bloom.

Well, there is at least one WR Kumerow who has been in the league now 6 years and still doesn't get consistency in his game.

It's understandable that usually your rookie WRs will have lower stats than your starters. But stats aren't everything. It just seemed to me that in bygone years many of our rookie WRs looked a lot more crisp in the offense than what we're seeing out of this current group. That I believe was a testament to how much our previous GMs invested in the position. Right now, I'm sorry but Gute has made it a very low priority, and it's why I don't think we're going to see any better results out of guys like MVS or ESB than what we saw last year.

Don't get me wrong, if we finally see a breakout by any or all of these guys, we'll be happy and gladly be proven wrong. But what I'm just not agreeing with is the idea that who we got at WR now is as good as it's going to get in terms of who you can find in a draft, and I'm not buying that one bit.

 

[OldSchool101]

Well, there is at least one WR Kumerow who has been in the league now 6 years and still doesn't get consistency in his game.

It's understandable that usually your rookie WRs will have lower stats than your starters. But stats aren't everything. It just seemed to me that in bygone years many of our rookie WRs looked a lot more crisp in the offense than what we're seeing out of this current group. That I believe was a testament to how much our previous GMs invested in the position. Right now, I'm sorry but Gute has made it a very low priority, and it's why I don't think we're going to see any better results out of guys like MVS or ESB than what we saw last year.

Don't get me wrong, if we finally see a breakout by any or all of these guys, we'll be happy and gladly be proven wrong. But what I'm just not agreeing with is the idea that who we got at WR now is as good as it's going to get in terms of who you can find in a draft, and I'm not buying that one bit.

We can both agree that there were about 5-6 WR that could’ve been an instant upgrade.
That said. Beyond those, call it a generous 6 WR, those other WR had the same question marks every WR class in the history of the game has in the 2nd round and beyond. I think we were a little too much media fed if we bought into a #62 pick at WR making some grandiose appearance and winning the #2 spot and pushing this team to new heights. EQ himself played his Rookie season at what IMO was 4th round grade. I’m still not convinced he should’ve have been late day 2 to early day 3 draft.

Now listen, we can argue for or against whatever our concept was at WR beyond our #30 selection. But that doesn’t negate that you have another seasoned veteran in Funchess (who btw wasn’t he a day 2 selection?). You have EQ back in the mix after a promising Rookie season and what will be now 3 years of camp, 3 preseasons and a 2nd season learning this system. I have him ahead of anyone you would get at WR at pick #62 or beyond this draft.

Then you just can’t ignore Lazard and what he did in his 1st season with GB. At least for us to say he’s done improving would be a little presumptuous. He’s on pace to have a 650+ yards type season.
I don’t see that being topped by pick #62 in his rookie season do you really? A super RAS machine like DK Metcalf might’ve been a thought, but there was one player at RB who fit that role, His name is Dillon.

So the argument with WR holds pretty good until round 1 was over. Past that? Unless the FO thought someone slipped a round? I would’ve went after the best talent left and remained resolute. I’ll be quite frank with you, I was more surprised we didn’t go after a LB or DT day 2 before day 3. I personally would’ve loved to had a day 1 WR, but past that I was thinking more about our lousy Run Stop and a #62 pick at say LB could’ve been profitable in that “win now” mindset.

pS. How about Jordan Brooks?! I had my eye on him 6 months ago as a dark horse maybe getting top #50 and he goes before our pick round 1?!!

 

[rmontro]

So the argument with WR holds pretty good until round 1 was over.

I recently read a quote from MLF that verified that there were people on GB's board that were taken before they got to pick, so they went with the next guy on the board, who was Jordan Love. That probably sounds obvious, but at least it implies that their objective wasn't to replace Rodgers at all cost.

Of course he didn't say who was on their board. Maybe it was only Joe Burrows

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Well, I wasn't trying to ignore Lazard since I do maybe see some long-term viability there, but it's still a ? at this point.

I'm not going to speculate as to how it would have turned out if we had grabbed a WR in the 2nd. Just too many unknowns there. But I feel like Gute has been way too risk averse so far because I feel like AJ Dillon was a bit too safe of a pick. I realize Aaron Jones is set to have a contract expiration at the end of this season, but he's saying he'd like to work out a deal to stay in Green Bay. I feel like Dillon won't be much more than a change of pace guy. Maybe useful for short yardage, but not a whole lot more than that.

All that to say, I think it would have been worth the risk to try for a WR somewhere in that entanglement.

 

[rmontro]

I feel like Dillon won't be much more than a change of pace guy. Maybe useful for short yardage, but not a whole lot more than that.

That's probably the most likely outcome. But we can always hope they hit the lottery with him, sometimes picks turn out that way.

 

[OldSchool101]

Im not oblivious to the obvious sentiment and I’m not going to argue there weren’t some exciting selection at WR, heck I had one picked for myself that I’ll be watching in Laviska Shenault (I liked his do it all capacity like a turbo version Ty Montgomery and though he fit this style Offense). Interestingly we went Deguara a round later and TE Cousin of WR who kinda fits that similar prototype.

But that aside, because frustrated or not or somewhere in between? I still think we can say without too much argument (past the draft frustration) that the group who is competing this season is better than last season. I mean.. we had Shepherd out their fielding returns, he made Davis look like an All Pro!

Davante = Davante (he’s the 1 bright spot and that 360 crossbar dunk during the probowl was downright impressive!)


Funchess was a solid #2 WR for Cam Newton and has shown statistical consistency for years.

Lazard was a silver lining in 2019 and while nothing is a given, it would only make statistical/schematics sense that he still has room to improve.

EQ was hurt last season but he’s just plain better than Gmo was (or will ever be) and has a much better ceiling.

MVS started strong and then kinda treaded water at best there in 2019, but you also have to account for entirely different game plan from what he learned 2018. There’s a better chance than not he has not peaked.

Begelton is a ? but if he’s the bottom feeder of our Roster? He’s my dark horse guy, but something tells me he’s got a legit chance at making this Roster. He’s unique and different skill set and near perfect skill fit for the Slot. If he does? I think he’s going to surprise some folks, maybe not in 2020 but before all is said n done.

 

[rmontro]

But I feel like Gute has been way too risk averse so far because I feel like AJ Dillon was a bit too safe of a pick. I realize Aaron Jones is set to have a contract expiration at the end of this season, but he's saying he'd like to work out a deal to stay in Green Bay.

Well, now Gute probably has a little more leverage in negotiations with Jones, if that's what he wants. But you wonder if he's made his pick to help out his GM duties, more than putting together a better football team.

 

[OldSchool101]

Well, now Gute probably has a little more leverage in negotiations with Jones, if that's what he wants. But you wonder if he's made his pick to help out his GM duties, more than putting together a better football team.

I think it’s absolutely a consideration in negotiations, but not as a primary reason for the selection. Meaning Dillon truly WAS in the conversation for the most valuable athlete remaining, but Dillon being a contract negotiating strategy or contingency plan was an attractive side benefit for sure. From a monetary dollars perspective you know Jones will command a multi year, double digit type figure so that leverage could literally save millions.. or even maybe be the difference in being able to afford retaining Jones altogether.

 

[Mondio]

Well, now Gute probably has a little more leverage in negotiations with Jones, if that's what he wants. But you wonder if he's made his pick to help out his GM duties, more than putting together a better football team.

I think the Dillon pick could influence Jones negotiations to a degree, but I don’t think that pick was made to compete with Jones or replace Jones in the offense of that makes sense.

I see completely different backs that compliment each other in this offense more than anything.

I really believe we could have GBs version of Ingram and Kamara set up And ready to roll.

I think the pick was made because he was left on the board as someone they think can help this offense function more like the HC wants it to function more than it was to influence the Jones decision coming at years end.

If this team can legitimately line up on a 3rd and 3 or 4 and run pound the ball every time and get it? Man that’s going to open up everything else. Or consistently run on 1st and 2nd to get to 3rd and 1-2? Have Dillon and Jones on the field with jones staying backfield or motioning out?

Anyway, I’m just trying to say I believe they made the pick because he was who they identified as having the most impact for this offense left on the board more than anything else.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Even if there is no chance of being open?

Yes. In addition at some point talented wide receivers should come up with contested catches as well.

Rodgers is a great QB and lucky to have him but I just don't believe he is perfect.

Nobody believes Rodgers is perfect by any means but I understand the reasoning behind him not trusting some receivers.

When #1 is the case; I sure hope the receiver knows that is what is going on.

If the receiver knows the playbook he does.

There was no one left outside the top #50 that would provide an instant answer and selecting one would cover up 3rd year players in Lazard, EQ, MVS, etc.. From a team building perspective, you don’t subscribe to draft n develop and then work against the grain be covering up everything you invested.

The Packers drafting another wide receiver wouldn't have worked against their philosophy (which has changed under Gutekunst in the first place) at all.

Right now, I'm sorry but Gute has made it a very low priority, and it's why I don't think we're going to see any better results out of guys like MVS or ESB than what we saw last year.

To be fair, EQ spent all of last season on injured reserve.

That's probably the most likely outcome. But we can always hope they hit the lottery with him, sometimes picks turn out that way.

Teams rarely hit the lottery with a running back though.

From a monetary dollars perspective you know Jones will command a multi year, double digit type figure so that leverage could literally save millions.. or even maybe be the difference in being able to afford retaining Jones altogether.

The Packers definitely shouldn't offer Jobes a deal averaging $10 million a season.

If this team can legitimately line up on a 3rd and 3 or 4 and run pound the ball every time and get it? Man that’s going to open up everything else.

Actually the Packers have been by far the best team in the league running the ball on third down with three or four yards to go over the past 10 years, converting 75.9% of their attempts. That hasn't opened up other parts of their offense though.

 

[Mondio]

Actually the Packers have been by far the best team in the league running the ball on third down with three or four yards to go over the past 10 years, converting 75.9% of their attempts. That hasn't opened up other parts of their offense though.

This is a case where I don't care about the stats, because what I'm talking about is lining up against a team taht knows you're going to run and you can run it anyway. They play defense to stop the run. other than a brief stint with Lacy, our running game has been successful against defenses set up to defend against Rodgers. I also think we've been in 3rd and medium to long more than a lot of other teams too over many of those years precisely because our 1st down runs were for negative 2 to 2 yards with far too much regularity. Getting 4-5 yards on a 1st down run and getting another 4 on 2nd down when teams are playing it, will go a long ways in opening up this offense. Or maybe teams never play to defend it because they fear the pass more. Well good, because I enjoy running teams over more than I like 400 yards passing a game.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

This is a case where I don't care about the stats, because what I'm talking about is lining up against a team taht knows you're going to run and you can run it anyway.

I don't think Dillon will help in that regard as the Packers offensive line doesn't excel blocking for the run though.

I also think we've been in 3rd and medium to long more than a lot of other teams too over many of those years precisely because our 1st down runs were for negative 2 to 2 yards with far too much regularity. Getting 4-5 yards on a 1st down run and getting another 4 on 2nd down when teams are playing it, will go a long ways in opening up this offense.

Over the past 10 years only three teams have had a lower average yards to go on third down than the Packers. In addition only three teams have had less runs for no gain or negative yards since 2010 as well.

I understand that's mostly because teams concentrated on defending the pass but I highly doubt most opponents will change that approach because of Dillon.

 

[Mondio]

i seem to remember reading something about how many 3rd and 7's or longer GB was facing and it was more than most. Not last year, but prior. and I'm sure GB's averages are ok because we've averaged out to a pretty decent offense for a long time. But it doesn't explain the situations. Averaging a good number of yards on a 1st down run because you've had 3 rushes for 2 yards and then against a defense playing pass you bust a 15+ yarder is nice for that situation, and it leaves a decent average, but it doesn't indicate a good rushing offense.