Ted Thompson Era Should Be Over

[Carl 2]

Carl, when you have an elite, best in the league QB, you are basically a 10-6 team by default. Anything better is a result of the things you do to improve upon that base. I really do believe that -- the QB position is that important, and Rodgers is that good.

Lately, it seems we are closer to that base than near the top where we belong. The 2015-16 team was close, but don't let the NFCCG appearance fool you - that team clearly demonstrated it didn't belong on the field with Atlanta, and that was very disappointing.

That's been the trend and the thing that has kept us from being back in the Super Bowl -- the defense. The postseason struggles on D, sometimes to very extreme ends, have been the hardest to take for me.

So absolutely, a change at DC is long overdue, and some if not all of the position coaches on defense. It seems like you're on board with at least some of that.

I can't explain why the defense hasn't improved over the years. My best explanation is that Capers and his coaches haven't been able to adapt to all the changes in NFL offenses the last decade. But it's just a guess. There's no doubt this defensive system had great success in 2009 and 2010, but many years have passed now and things remain consistently mediocre. Sometimes, things just get stale and a change can be a good thing.

I agree with you that gutting the whole thing isn't necessary. When Rodgers is healthy, the offense is Super Bowl caliber. There's no reason to replace MM and doing so late in Rodgers' career would be risky. I'm pretty indifferent to Zook -- don't care for him that much, but he'd be a pretty weak scapegoat if that's all that happened.

I'd probably give Ted his pension and tell him to ride off into the sunset, but mostly because his retirement is pretty inevitable at this point anyway and it seems wise to get his successor in place several years before Rodgers retires -- just as we did with Ted and Favre. But that's not something that will have instant big ramifications in the next year or two anyway.

Based on the winning streak, winning at Dallas, and being within one score of Atlanta early in the year, it's also possible the NFC Championship was the outlier among those games. The team was better than they performed that day.

I agree though that something different needs to be done defensively.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Hundley doesn't play when the defense is out there. Losing Rodgers aside, the Packers defense still isn't very good and that needs to change in 2018 or this is just a below average team with a FHOF QB making them above average.

Right, I'm still in favor of losing Capers once the season is over for that reason. But it's why I mentioned the team as a whole since I figured the whole roster must be graded to get a feel for where they are. And ... not to cop out on the D here, but they coulda held the opponent to only 3 points this last game and we'd have still lost because of how awful Hundley is, hence why I think he is a deadweight liability to this team that's made them below below average.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Drastic would be new head coach, GM, staff - basically sweeping changes some fans are suggesting.

When the teams has been close for years, it seems like an easy way to take a step backwards.

As far as replacing TT being drastic, it depends on who they replace him with.

If they replace him with Wolf, the same philosophy will likely stay considered he's been in the system for years.

If they go outside the organization and pick up a newer GM, it would be a big change.

I don't think it's a bad philosophy we got here, it's that it should be added onto. Plus, I think my issue right now with Thomspon is that his scouting needs cleaning up with this whole Hundley thing coming to light. I don't think we need Wolfe to scrap the philosophy, just improve upon it.

 

[PikeBadger]

Harder on the defense having Hundley out there? yes. Much of a change, for better or worse when Rodgers was playing? Not really. I hate to say it, but I keep looking at what the Vikings have done in the last 2 years. They lose Bridgewater, replace him with Bradford, do pretty well. Bradford goes down, they replace him with Keenum and here they sit at 9-2. There is something to be said about having a solid defense like the Vikings have and not have to over rely on on a FHOF QB like the Packers obviously have been all these years. Fire Capers, maybe even Thompson...since he is the guy who has spent the last 6 drafts heavy on defense and the Packers really have little to show for it.

I realize you’re infatuated with the Vikings remarkable record of success and yes, I too would enjoy having a defense as good as they have had recently. I do think though it’s a tad disingenuous though to envy the Vikings. They skipped on Rodgers twice. They chose their path. I’m guessing they have less to show for the last 12 seasons than we do.

 

[Half Empty]

Questions for you in response to this.

MM and TT have turned the Packers around twice already. (4-12 in TT's first season to NFC Championship two years later. 6-10 Rodgers first season to Super Bowl few years later).

Why are they incapable of doing it again? And why is TT incapable of finding a suitable replacement to Rodgers?

2011-2017 seasons, in answer to first bold.

First, a suitable replacement for some of us is a guy who QBs them to a SB win. Then, it's simply the odds against finding Favre-Rodgers-X.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

I realize you’re infatuated with the Vikings remarkable record of success and yes, I too would enjoy having a defense as good as they have had recently. I do think though it’s a tad disingenuous though to envy the Vikings. They skipped on Rodgers twice. They chose their path. I’m guessing they have less to show for the last 12 seasons than we do.

It's kinda funny the way some people keep pointing to and praising them, but mostly because I remember 3 years ago those Bears fans were doing the same thing with us during the Marc Trestman era. Only reason I ain't drinking purple coolaid is the Vikings have quite a history of having special years followed by big old drops, aka 1998 followed by a terrible season in 99, and 2009 followed by 5 years of awfulness. I could easily see a similar thing happening next year.

Now, I think a lot of the current frustration at Ted Thompson is that he seems to be unwilling to admit his mistake on drafting Hundley, and that he missed a shot at trading him and getting a good deal out of the trade is what's got some of us a bit irate at him. He was willing to let Cook walk in order to land Martellus Bennett here, and I think he coulda been willing to fleece another team with Hundley and grab another backup better than Callahan who's more suited to MM's offense.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I realize you’re infatuated with the Vikings remarkable record of success and yes, I too would enjoy having a defense as good as they have had recently. I do think though it’s a tad disingenuous though to envy the Vikings. They skipped on Rodgers twice. They chose their path. I’m guessing they have less to show for the last 12 seasons than we do.

Not sure how you are confusing me pointing out how the Vikings have built a solid defense as well as haven't had a substantial drop off after losing not 1 but 2 starting QB's, with me being infatuated with them? But I guess you would rather be 5-5 and hanging onto a season by a thread then 9-2 and looking legit? Don't confuse loyalty with intelligence.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Now, I think a lot of the current frustration at Ted Thompson is that he seems to be unwilling to admit his mistake on drafting Hundley, and that he missed a shot at trading him and getting a good deal out of the trade is what's got some of us a bit irate at him. He was willing to let Cook walk in order to land Martellus Bennett here, and I think he coulda been willing to fleece another team with Hundley and grab another backup better than Callahan who's more suited to MM's offense.

I admittedly was wrong about Hundley too. Unless the Packers were going to go after a legit veteran QB to back up Rodgers, I saw trading Hundley away last spring as a stupid move. You have to figure he would be ready to go by in his 3rd year. Seems like he proved me and so far, the Packers organization wrong. I hope this is a lesson learned moving forward, find a journeyman backup QB. While he won't be as good as Rodgers, he may not be nearly as bad as Hundley and might just keep us in games.

 

[gbgary]

I'd probably give Ted his pension and tell him to ride off into the sunset, but mostly because his retirement is pretty inevitable at this point anyway and it seems wise to get his successor in place several years before Rodgers retires -- just as we did with Ted and Favre. But that's not something that will have instant big ramifications in the next year or two anyway.

if ted retires (or is let go) at season's end i don't see why not. a new philosophy/mission/process would start at free agency and the draft. there's absolutely no reason to put it off and waste another year or two of the Rodgers window.

 

[gbgary]

I don't think we need Wolfe to scrap the philosophy, just improve upon it.

if it's him, or whoever, they need to have their own plan and not be so rigid that they can't make changes on the fly as things change.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

if it's him, or whoever, they need to have their own plan and not be so rigid that they can't make changes on the fly as things change.

The execution plan and philosophy things are not the same. I was saying, I don't think draft and develop is a bad philosophy, it's that there's going to have to be better scouting and picks in that department, and he's going to need to be grabbing good free agents and making trades as part of it. In other words, build on the philosophy with more proactive moves when it appears the IR is going to get full. Having a base philosophy that's the same doesn't mean you're running a carbon copy of what your predecessor did.

 

[McKnowledge]

How will people remember TT? As a guy who won a title? Or someone who wasted Rodgers prime?

Both. After almost beating Arizona in the 2009 Divisional round, the SB was foreseeable. TT should be known for wasting AR12's prime more than the Championship. Also, my personal opinion, the GM should always have the best interest of the team, not the best interest of their ego. Every year, it seems as though TT is out to prove that his team can do more with less. That's his ego making decisions, not the best interest of the team. If a player is beloved by the locker room and coaching staff, but not the front office; put aside your ego. Honestly, the most annoying people I've encountered in life are the passive-aggressive people in an office.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Both. After almost beating Arizona in the 2009 Divisional round, the SB was foreseeable. TT should be known for wasting AR12's prime more than the Championship. Also, my personal opinion, the GM should always have the best interest of the team, not the best interest of their ego. Every year, it seems as though TT is out to prove that his team can do more with less. That's his ego making decisions, not the best interest of the team. If a player is beloved by the locker room and coaching staff, but not the front office; put aside your ego. Honestly, the most annoying people I've encountered in life are the passive-aggressive people in an office.

I'm going to say this is a little bit of the summary of Ted Thompson's initial success but also encapsulates a little bit of why the team has had two drops to 10-6 records and is a bit stuck with a bad year right now, though Rodgers injury was likely going to bring the bad this year anyway. I'm going to address the first part of your statement by saying Ted Thompson was responsible for that 2009 season and bringing in players like Greg Jennings, James Jones and Jordy among others who were instrumental towards getting there. He scored a few 1-hit wonder defensive picks in those years including Clay, Raji, Walden, Collins, Tramon and a few others. So I'd credit him with a bit of the work towards getting to that phase.

I think the problem is he's struggled to duplicate some of those finds recently, and some players who saw drop in quality such as Lacy and Janis and now Hundley (just to name a few) in recent years have kinda marred some of his past finds. Also, ever since the CBA changed, injuries have become even more rampant and because of that, some GMs need to use different tactics than what they had before and it seems Ted has struggled to adapt to this growing problem. Now ... Capers and his defensive coaching staff do deserve some blame for some picks flaming out or not utilizing them properly because that some of Ted's defensive picks are succeeding on other teams shows that drafting them wasn't the problem, it was the defensive coaches' problem. But it may also go back to scouting considering a number of those players also underwent scheme changes that put them in better position, and perhaps Ted isn't making good picks for 3-4 nickel package players which is causing this.

 

[Mike McCarthy]

Ted is delirious. Ignorance and incompetence have run rampant.

 

[swhitset]

I admittedly was wrong about Hundley too. Unless the Packers were going to go after a legit veteran QB to back up Rodgers, I saw trading Hundley away last spring as a stupid move. You have to figure he would be ready to go by in his 3rd year. Seems like he proved me and so far, the Packers organization wrong. I hope this is a lesson learned moving forward, find a journeyman backup QB. While he won't be as good as Rodgers, he may not be nearly as bad as Hundley and might just keep us in games.

There is a reason the Packers grabbed Jim McMahon to back up Favre and it wasn't because he was ever an all time great, but he had proven he knew how to get the job done in a pinch.

 

[McKnowledge]

I'm going to say this is a little bit of the summary of Ted Thompson's initial success but also encapsulates a little bit of why the team has had two drops to 10-6 records and is a bit stuck with a bad year right now, though Rodgers injury was likely going to bring the bad this year anyway. I'm going to address the first part of your statement by saying Ted Thompson was responsible for that 2009 season and bringing in players like Greg Jennings, James Jones and Jordy among others who were instrumental towards getting there. He scored a few 1-hit wonder defensive picks in those years including Clay, Raji, Walden, Collins, Tramon and a few others. So I'd credit him with a bit of the work towards getting to that phase.

I think the problem is he's struggled to duplicate some of those finds recently, and some players who saw drop in quality such as Lacy and Janis and now Hundley (just to name a few) in recent years have kinda marred some of his past finds. Also, ever since the CBA changed, injuries have become even more rampant and because of that, some GMs need to use different tactics than what they had before and it seems Ted has struggled to adapt to this growing problem. Now ... Capers and his defensive coaching staff do deserve some blame for some picks flaming out or not utilizing them properly because that some of Ted's defensive picks are succeeding on other teams shows that drafting them wasn't the problem, it was the defensive coaches' problem. But it may also go back to scouting considering a number of those players also underwent scheme changes that put them in better position, and perhaps Ted isn't making good picks for 3-4 nickel package players which is causing this.

That's fair. TT does deserve credit for the picks that hit...and also the picks that miss. TT came in 2005, and hit right away with Rodgers and Collins. 2006, TT was on a hot streak with Hawk, Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Jolly, and even Abdul Hodge and Will Blackmon were solid. 2007, was pretty much James Jones and Crosby, with a little bit of Desomnd Bishop. 2008, Nelson, Jermichael Finley, and a serviceable Matt Flynn. 2009, (boom) Raji, Matthews, and Lang in that order. 2010, Bulaga, Mike Neal, Burnett, and Starks in later rounds. 2011...Cobb. 2012, Perry, Casey Hayward, and Mike Daniels. 2013, Lacy, Bakhtiari, and Micah Hyde. 2014, Ha-Ha, Adams, Richard Rogers, Corey Linsley, and Janis (Rogers and Janis notable for hail mary catches). 2015, Randall? Montgomery (ok), and Ripkowski.
2016, Kenny Clark, Spriggs (we'll see), and Martinez (stepped it up). 2017, jury is still out, but I like Kevin King and Josh Jones. TT has been actually pretty good with his draft picks. My issue with TT is his inadjustments to the CBA of 2011. That CBA limited practices, essentially changing the way teams prepare for "battle". I always thought TT should try to get as much draft picks as possible to curb the injuries that would result because of limited practices. That subtle change drastically affected the NFL beginning six years ago and going forward. Players cannot hardened their bodies for the constant contact throughout a season. Similar to calluses on a MMA fighters shins, NFL players' bodies are not calibrated for punishment the way they were ten years ago. The new CBA following the Packer's championship was counter-intuitive to defending their championship during a brutal schedule, which directly followed winning that SB before the 2011 season began. TT's inability to adapt to the rules change by getting as many picks as possible (Patriots have mastered this), limits the Pack's ability to weather key injuries during a season. TT not using the cap space to aid in the limited number of draft picks, compounds the problem of keeping the machine rolling during the course of a season. This is the reason why I think a change should be made @ GM. Also, my two cents, Packers should switch to a 4-3 base, it fits their personnel.

 

[Mike McCarthy]

Only 80 pages behind the “fire capers” thread, and gaining ground daily! I’m loving it.

 

[gbgary]

The execution plan and philosophy things are not the same. I was saying, I don't think draft and develop is a bad philosophy, it's that there's going to have to be better scouting and picks in that department, and he's going to need to be grabbing good free agents and making trades as part of it. In other words, build on the philosophy with more proactive moves when it appears the IR is going to get full. Having a base philosophy that's the same doesn't mean you're running a carbon copy of what your predecessor did.

of course it isn't. ALL teams do that. it's just that that's about all TT wants to do. oh he'll cut someone and fill their spot with someone who's less talented and cheap, or unproven and cheap. cheap being the optimum word. seldom, if ever, is someone an upgrade.

can anyone think of an upgrade in free agency? Peppers...but then he washed that out by replacing him with...who. Biegel?

 

[lambeaulambo]

Based on the winning streak, winning at Dallas, and being within one score of Atlanta early in the year, it's also possible the NFC Championship was the outlier among those games. The team was better than they performed that day.

I agree though that something different needs to be done defensively.

Not just defensively. The front office too. TT and Mark Murphy need to be gone. They are riding hall of fame qb's teams and nothing more. 1 title for Rodgers is below average for what could be.

 

[rodell330]

Why is the forum and fans in generally obsessed with making huge changes?

The team has been to the NFC Championship twice in three years. They were on a 12-2 run before Rodgers went down, including a win at the NFC's #1 seed. Defensive weakness or not, they were very good and clearly a contender.

When a team has been that close, making big changes seems like the last thing to do. Small things like a new D coordinator would make sense, but nothing drastic.

There's seemingly an assumption that making big changes will automatically work out, but the odds of a big changes making the team better than they have been are slim.

I bet you as long as Aaron Rodgers is under Center they could change the entire coaching staff, and GM and still be contenders. What some people are STILL FAILING to realize is
It’s not the coaching staff or GM that’s the reason the Packers have been to 2 NFC championships in 3 yrs. it’s Aaron Rodgers!! Now that he’s out now look at them?? They look like the Browns. This is the loss of one player...ONE!! and all of a sudden the entire team looks like hot garbage!! If TT and MM are so great they would be able to keep the team afloat..but clearly they CANNOT without Rodgers. So yes, drastic changes are in need.

The Rams have virtually the same roster as last season and were absolutely terrible... they changed the entire coaching staff, and now look at them. Sometimes “drastic” changes are needed.

 

[Carl 2]

Not just defensively. The front office too. TT and Mark Murphy need to be gone. They are riding hall of fame qb's teams and nothing more. 1 title for Rodgers is below average for what could be.

Based on the longevity of some QBs nowadays (Brady is 40 and Brees is 38 and both are still going strong), Rodgers likely has 6-7 or more years left.

Why is it expected that not only should Packers have more titles with Rodgers, but they should have more long before his career is over?

Not supporting TT or Murphy in this post, just posing that question.

 

[Carl 2]

I bet you as long as Aaron Rodgers is under Center they could change the entire coaching staff, and GM and still be contenders. What some people are STILL FAILING to realize is
It’s not the coaching staff or GM that’s the reason the Packers have been to 2 NFC championships in 3 yrs. it’s Aaron Rodgers!! Now that he’s out now look at them?? They look like the Browns. This is the loss of one player...ONE!! and all of a sudden the entire team looks like hot garbage!! If TT and MM are so great they would be able to keep the team afloat..but clearly they CANNOT without Rodgers. So yes, drastic changes are in need.

The Rams have virtually the same roster as last season and were absolutely terrible... they changed the entire coaching staff, and now look at them. Sometimes “drastic” changes are needed.

Just using one example doesn't support your case to well. First of all, the Rams are doing nothing the Packers haven't done for years.

Also, there are many teams who haven't changed everything and are doing much better than last season, like the Saints, Steelers, and Panthers.

 

[rodell330]

Just using one example doesn't support your case to well. First of all, the Rams are doing nothing the Packers haven't done for years.

Also, there are many teams who haven't changed everything and are doing much better than last season, like the Saints, Steelers, and Panthers.

Dude say what you want, but Aaron Rodgers could play for any coach or in any system and still be Aaron Rodgers. The Packers have done what they’ve done because of him period point blank. No Aaron Rodgers = Packers stink. Facts

 

[Carl 2]

Dude say what you want, but Aaron Rodgers could play for any coach or in any system and still be Aaron Rodgers. The Packers have done what they’ve done because of him period point blank. No Aaron Rodgers = Packers stink. Facts

The last few years and espeically the last few games have really clouded people's judgment about the 2010 Super Bowl run.

I'll agree the team around Rodgers right now could be better and they clearly are not good without him right now.

However, it's not a fact he is the only reason they have a Super Bowl with him.

Looking at the 2010 team, it's amazing to me that people can think Rodgers was the only reason they won. It was loaded with talent across the board.

Rodgers was magic at Atlanta and in the Super Bowl, but not at all in the NFC Championship. His best play vs. Chicago could have been tackling Urlacher to prevent a pick 6.

The defense holding the Eagles to 16, the Bears to 14, and getting a pick six and three total turnovers in the Super Bowl were large parts of the Super Bowl run.

No defense and no good team around him that year = not even one Super Bowl with Rodgers.

 

[rodell330]

The last few years and espeically the last few games have really clouded people's judgment about the 2010 Super Bowl run.

I'll agree the team around Rodgers right now could be better and they clearly are not good without him right now.

However, it's not a fact he is the only reason they have a Super Bowl with him.

Looking at the 2010 team, it's amazing to me that people can think Rodgers was the only reason they won. It was loaded with talent across the board.

Rodgers was magic at Atlanta and in the Super Bowl, but not at all in the NFC Championship. His best play vs. Chicago could have been tackling Urlacher to prevent a pick 6.

The defense holding the Eagles to 16, the Bears to 14, and getting a pick six and three total turnovers in the Super Bowl were large parts of the Super Bowl run.

No defense and no good team around him that year = not even one Super Bowl with Rodgers.

I didn’t say he’s the reason they won it in 2010
Because that’s not true. That was a great team with some great leaders and playmakers. The Packers teams after 2012 however have been carried by Rodgers.