Ted Thompson Era Should Be Over

[Poppa San]

Problem is Jeff Fisher's offenses made a lot of QBs look bad in them,

Stop moving the goalposts. You keep raising the bar to support your claim.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

One thing I'm sure that I missed was - whose job is it to have a decent backup QB on the team?

That's not a reason to fire anyone. You can't know what you have until you put him on the field with when the bullets are live. If he's still here next year, then it would be a problem.[/QUOTE]

Not knowing that your backup QB is any good, and then refusing to make changes based on proven ability on the field is plenty of reason to be fired, ESPECIALLY when that failure is coming at the single most important position on the field. Not sure what's confusing about that?

 

[PikeBadger]

Agreed.... however I'll take those stats over Hundley's ..... not to mention the fact that Rodgers was a first round draft pick.... predicted by many to go number 1 overall. Hundley was a 5th rounder that Thompson reached for by trading up in the 5th to get. Again the idea that we should compare the two players is patently laughably ridiculous. I will also add that my memory is pretty damned good, and that despite misgivings about Rodgers' ability to stay healthy he looked pretty decent to me when he did get a chance to play. Sure he made mistakes, but sometimes you can just see when a player has potential.... Rodgers did "look" like he had something . Hundley looks lost and scared... and always has.

You missed my premise. Very, very few QB’s can go directly from college to the NFL and be better than average (top 10 in league) in a short amount of time with almost zero live game experience. Especially in a passing offense scheme. I think it’s safe to say that it takes time and experience for 99% of them.

I agree that Rodgers was a better QB prospect than Hundley. Generally speaking, in our offensive scheme, you’d have to be willing to spend a 1st round pick on a backup QB which of course means not picking a DB, DL or OL that year in order to not have a debilitating dropoff in production when Rodgers gets hurt. You just cannot find these types of QB’s on the waiver wire. They just don’t exist in large quantities. There are only maybe 10 of these guys on the planet.

 

[PikeBadger]

His entire sample size in 3 seasons from 2005-07 was 35 for 59 for 329 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT.

How would anyone have any earthly idea as to what his skill level was compared to an average NFL QB during that timeframe?

There are people here who remember seeing him play. For goodness sakes, there are some of us here who remember seeing Bart Starr and his backup, Zeke Bratkowski play.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

If....both TT and Capers are still around after this year I don't see Capers still being in Green Bay in 2018.

Hasn't TT really been going after improving the defense for 6 straight drafts and even this year throwing in FA's? When do they decide enough is enough?

Odd that you don't read that and come to the conclusion that Thompson might be part of the problem as well.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The thing about Mathews is funny to me... yes he is overpaid, but I don't see many people clamoring to cut Ahmad Brooks or any of the other Jags we have floating around. I really think people need to stop thinking with their emotions. Mathews is still better than anyone else we have to replace him with. I'm certainly fine with trying to get him to take a pay cut, but unless you have somebody better to replace him with stop with the ridiculous assertions about how much he sucks simply because he is no longer a legitimate pro bowler.

People love to cut guys they think are overpaid (see Cobb) without actually considering whether the money saved is going to help the team more than just keeping the player.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Odd that you don't read that and come to the conclusion that Thompson might be part of the problem as well.

Oh trust me, if you saw a graph of my "TT Meter", you would know that at this point in time, its about as low as it's been and a change might be best IMO. My Capers meter bottomed out and broke a long time ago. I don't care if the defense shows up 1 out of 5 games a year, against a below average offense, the time has come to put a young eager DC behind the controls.

 

[Mike McCarthy]

The thing about Mathews is funny to me... yes he is overpaid, but I don't see many people clamoring to cut Ahmad Brooks or any of the other Jags we have floating around. I really think people need to stop thinking with their emotions. Mathews is still better than anyone else we have to replace him with. I'm certainly fine with trying to get him to take a pay cut, but unless you have somebody better to replace him with stop with the ridiculous assertions about how much he sucks simply because he is no longer a legitimate pro bowler.

If clay is unwilling to restructure cut him loose. Good lord the guy is average at best at this point and some are so worried about replacing him because the next guy isn’t currently on the roster. Send him packing free up the money and be active about addressing the need in upcoming free agency and draft. How do you ever expect to get better, and get over the hump, when you are so in love with keeping things the same? Clays stats are comparable to guys that could have been had in free agency at about 1/3 or 1/4 of the cost, it’s foolish from a business standpoint to keep the clown around any longer than what we already have.

 

[adambr2]

There are people here who remember seeing him play. For goodness sakes, there are some of us here who remember seeing Bart Starr and his backup, Zeke Bratkowski play.

Ok, and again, how much did you see him play? The answer is not very much, because he hardly played from 2005-07. 59 total passes in 3 years, especially from a fan perspective, is not nearly enough to compare him to Hundley or even try to evaluate him as what he would have been compared to an average starting QB.

For goodness sake, he did not even start one game during that timeframe. Not one single week of practice and preparation with the 1's.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Stop moving the goalposts. You keep raising the bar to support your claim.

Even if I did, I still say we've all seen Hundley's ceiling and he's going to be out of the league by year's end.

Now ... in all fairness to Ted ... I don't think our talent is as poor (all around) as what some have said. I think our backs/receivers/OL/D-linemen and DBs (to some degree) are about avg, with our current QB and probably LB core being the dead weights. I think if we just had about a high-C low b-level QB in here running it, we'd get about 8-8 records or something like that year around.

I'm certainly not debating the fact that Rodgers pretty much is the catalyst to this team playing at as high a level as they do when they do and yes, his play can carry the weight and mask deficiencies. But it's also hard to grade this team when Hundley is out there because he makes them look much worse than they are. The problem that comes of it though is that having average play in certain positions such as the LBs, TEs or DBs just doesn't usually cut it when it's time to get to "the game" once Rodgers returns.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But it's also hard to grade this team when Hundley is out there because he makes them look much worse than they are.

Hundley doesn't play when the defense is out there. Losing Rodgers aside, the Packers defense still isn't very good and that needs to change in 2018 or this is just a below average team with a FHOF QB making them above average.

 

[swhitset]

Hundley doesn't play when the defense is out there. Losing Rodgers aside, the Packers defense still isn't very good and that needs to change in 2018 or this is just a below average team with a FHOF QB making them above average.

I agree we need to replace Capers... that was known even before Rodgers went down... however there is no denying that Hundley has made the job even harder on the defense as well with all the turnovers and 3 and outs.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I agree we need to replace Capers... that was known even before Rodgers went down... however there is no denying that Hundley has made the job even harder on the defense as well with all the turnovers and 3 and outs.

Harder on the defense having Hundley out there? yes. Much of a change, for better or worse when Rodgers was playing? Not really. I hate to say it, but I keep looking at what the Vikings have done in the last 2 years. They lose Bridgewater, replace him with Bradford, do pretty well. Bradford goes down, they replace him with Keenum and here they sit at 9-2. There is something to be said about having a solid defense like the Vikings have and not have to over rely on on a FHOF QB like the Packers obviously have been all these years. Fire Capers, maybe even Thompson...since he is the guy who has spent the last 6 drafts heavy on defense and the Packers really have little to show for it.

 

[Passepartout]

Hate it that Hundley is a scapegoat in all of this. It is not all of his fault. But still not having Rodgers there hurts the team. Sportscasters say Packers went from SB calibur to that of possible first round 2018 draft pick.

 

[adambr2]

Hate it that Hundley is a scapegoat in all of this. It is not all of his fault. But still not having Rodgers there hurts the team. Sportscasters say Packers went from SB calibur to that of possible first round 2018 draft pick.

A first round 2018 draft pick? Sportscasters really went out on a limb with that one.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Hate it that Hundley is a scapegoat in all of this. It is not all of his fault. But still not having Rodgers there hurts the team. Sportscasters say Packers went from SB calibur to that of possible first round 2018 draft pick.

Think you meant #1 pick in the first round? Had Rodgers injury happened in the first game, I could see us fighting for that #1 pick!

 

[Carl 2]

Why is the forum and fans in generally obsessed with making huge changes?

The team has been to the NFC Championship twice in three years. They were on a 12-2 run before Rodgers went down, including a win at the NFC's #1 seed. Defensive weakness or not, they were very good and clearly a contender.

When a team has been that close, making big changes seems like the last thing to do. Small things like a new D coordinator would make sense, but nothing drastic.

There's seemingly an assumption that making big changes will automatically work out, but the odds of a big changes making the team better than they have been are slim.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Why is the forum and fans in generally obsessed with making huge changes?

The team has been to the NFC Championship twice in three years. They were on a 12-2 run before Rodgers went down, including a win at the NFC's #1 seed. Defensive weakness or not, they were very good and clearly a contender.

When a team has been that close, making big changes seems like the last thing to do. Small things like a new D coordinator would make sense, but nothing drastic.

There's seemingly an assumption that making big changes will automatically work out, but the odds of a big changes making the team better than they have been are slim.

Why are some people afraid of any change at all? If you don't recognize that this team really isn't all that great without Rodgers, you probably don't see the need for any change. I for one don't think firing Dom Capers would be considered a huge change. How long do you let Capers keep sucking up draft resources in order to build a sub standard defense, that probably is the main reason we aren't making it to and winning more Super Bowls?

Having Wolf step in for TT, might be a bigger change, but if that is what it takes to build a better team to support Aaron Rodgers, I am all for that kind of change.

 

[Carl 2]

Why are some people afraid of any change at all? If you don't recognize that this team really isn't all that great without Rodgers, you probably don't see the need for any change. I for one don't think firing Dom Capers would be considered a huge change. How long do you let Capers keep sucking up draft resources in order to build a sub standard defense, that probably is the main reason we aren't making it to and winning more Super Bowls?

Having Wolf step in for TT, might be a bigger change, but if that is what it takes to build a better team to support Aaron Rodgers, I am all for that kind of change.

I think you misread part of my post as it said, "Small things like a new D coordinator would make sense, but nothing drastic."

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think you misread part of my post as it said, "Small things like a new D coordinator would make sense, but nothing drastic."

What would be considered a "drastic" change for you?

Personally, I like MM and the chemistry between him and AR might be tough to instantly replace. As I said, firing TT would be a bigger change than just losing Capers, but I think possibly a necessary evil to figure out a way to make the "other 52 players" that make up the rest of the roster better.

I'm done with Joe Whitt as well. Besides his supposed magic on turning Sam Shields into a FA Pro Bowler, his work has sucked. Not only are the guys he has had to coach not played well, but the ones who leave Green Bay are playing much better elsewhere.

 

[Carl 2]

What would be considered a "drastic" change for you?

Personally, I like MM and the chemistry between him and AR might be tough to instantly replace. As I said, firing TT would be a bigger change than just losing Capers, but I think possibly a necessary evil to figure out a way to make the "other 52 players" that make up the rest of the roster better.

I'm done with Joe Whitt as well. Besides his supposed magic on turning Sam Shields into a FA Pro Bowler, his work has sucked. Not only are the guys he has had to coach not played well, but the ones who leave Green Bay are playing much better elsewhere.

Drastic would be new head coach, GM, staff - basically sweeping changes some fans are suggesting.

When the teams has been close for years, it seems like an easy way to take a step backwards.

As far as replacing TT being drastic, it depends on who they replace him with.

If they replace him with Wolf, the same philosophy will likely stay considered he's been in the system for years.

If they go outside the organization and pick up a newer GM, it would be a big change.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Drastic would be new head coach, GM, staff - basically sweeping changes some fans are suggesting.

When the teams has been close for years, it seems like an easy way to take a step backwards.

As far as replacing TT being drastic, it depends on who they replace him with.

If they replace him with Wolf, the same philosophy will likely stay considered he's been in the system for years.

If they go outside the organization and pick up a newer GM, it would be a big change.

Personally, I'm not in favor of "burning down the house" and starting over, but surgically removing what is hurting this team is. I began the year thinking TT was fine, he made what looked like some nice moves in Free Agency, he had awoken out of his FA coma. However, the loss of Rodgers proved something some of us feared, this team really isn't that good when AR isn't on the field. That has to be blamed on TT and nobody else. Rodgers has allowed TT to basically ignore the offense in the draft and now we are seeing that on the field.

Can you replace a GM without that new GM wanting to start fresh? Not sure, as you said, Wolf might be the best option for that kind of move.

As of today, I would love to see Capers, Whitt and probably TT gone. But I wouldn't be surprised if all the Packers do is give Ron Zook his walking papers and wait for #12 to get healthy for 2018.

 

[gbgary]

Why is the forum and fans in generally obsessed with making huge changes?

because the Rodgers window is closing. because this season is a preview of what the post Rodgers era will look like. because ending each season short of the goal with a lot of cap room left and a roster full of struggling rookies and 2nd and 3rd year players is tiresome. etc.

 

[Carl 2]

because the Rodgers window is closing. because this season is a preview of what the post Rodgers era will look like. because ending each season short of the goal with a lot of cap room left and a roster full of struggling rookies and 2nd and 3rd year players is tiresome. etc.

Questions for you in response to this.

MM and TT have turned the Packers around twice already. (4-12 in TT's first season to NFC Championship two years later. 6-10 Rodgers first season to Super Bowl few years later).

Why are they incapable of doing it again? And why is TT incapable of finding a suitable replacement to Rodgers?

 

[adambr2]

Questions for you in response to this.

MM and TT have turned the Packers around twice already. (4-12 in TT's first season to NFC Championship two years later. 6-10 Rodgers first season to Super Bowl few years later).

Why are they incapable of doing it again? And why is TT incapable of finding a suitable replacement to Rodgers?

Carl, when you have an elite, best in the league QB, you are basically a 10-6 team by default. Anything better is a result of the things you do to improve upon that base. I really do believe that -- the QB position is that important, and Rodgers is that good.

Lately, it seems we are closer to that base than near the top where we belong. The 2015-16 team was close, but don't let the NFCCG appearance fool you - that team clearly demonstrated it didn't belong on the field with Atlanta, and that was very disappointing.

That's been the trend and the thing that has kept us from being back in the Super Bowl -- the defense. The postseason struggles on D, sometimes to very extreme ends, have been the hardest to take for me.

So absolutely, a change at DC is long overdue, and some if not all of the position coaches on defense. It seems like you're on board with at least some of that.

I can't explain why the defense hasn't improved over the years. My best explanation is that Capers and his coaches haven't been able to adapt to all the changes in NFL offenses the last decade. But it's just a guess. There's no doubt this defensive system had great success in 2009 and 2010, but many years have passed now and things remain consistently mediocre. Sometimes, things just get stale and a change can be a good thing.

I agree with you that gutting the whole thing isn't necessary. When Rodgers is healthy, the offense is Super Bowl caliber. There's no reason to replace MM and doing so late in Rodgers' career would be risky. I'm pretty indifferent to Zook -- don't care for him that much, but he'd be a pretty weak scapegoat if that's all that happened.

I'd probably give Ted his pension and tell him to ride off into the sunset, but mostly because his retirement is pretty inevitable at this point anyway and it seems wise to get his successor in place several years before Rodgers retires -- just as we did with Ted and Favre. But that's not something that will have instant big ramifications in the next year or two anyway.