Tearing it Down

[tynimiller]

I can help you there. Just agree.

To be clear. London is better. But you asserted that the gap is gigantic. It isn't. He's still a rookie. In time, I would expect the gap between London and Lazard to be huge. But it isn't yet.

I agree 1,000% and expect by his third year one can not just see he is better but his production will illustrate it too. London I think can be a WR1, Lazard at best is a WR1b depending on the team. (AT BEST FOLKS...don't freak out)

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I can help you there. Just agree.

To be clear. London is better. But you asserted that the gap is gigantic. It isn't. He's still a rookie. In time, I would expect the gap between London and Lazard to be huge. But it isn't yet.

His gap PLUS the gap at TE means the overall receiving group is much better. Why do you only include London in your analysis of receiving targets?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Lazard and Drake stats:

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Now do contested catch rate!!! Wait, I'll do it for you.

London - 18 contested targets, 10 catches for a contested catch rate of 55.6%
Lazard - 14 contested targets, 5 catches for a contested catch rate of 35.7%

That seems like a large gap to me.

 

[tynimiller]

His gap PLUS the gap at TE means the overall receiving group is much better. Why do you only include London in your analysis of receiving targets?

What? Dantes literally praised Pitts in his one comment.

Now do contested catch rate!!! Wait, I'll do it for you.

London - 18 contested targets, 10 catches for a contested catch rate of 55.6%
Lazard - 14 contested targets, 5 catches for a contested catch rate of 35.7%

That seems like a large gap to me.

Sorry I didn't pick or choose what was included - yup London would get the nod there...it's a large gap in other facets in Lazard's favor. We aren't talking about future, merely the present. London and Lazard are not that far apart presently from what they offer a team...even by the year's end the gap could be more measurable, but right now, both in production and in their knowledge of the game Lazard and Drake are not that far apart.

 

[tynimiller]

Pitts is obviously a phenom and head and shoulders above Green Bay's tight ends. So if, on the basis of him alone, one wanted to give an edge to the Falcons, I wouldn't argue. But the difference is modest, not GIGANTIC.

And it makes absolutely no sense to point to that small disparity in talent as the reason why Atlanta is 12th in scoring offense and Green Bay is 25th when the Falcons use their pass catchers less than anyone in the entire league.

@Sunshinepacker see above for him gushing about Pitts.

 

[Magooch]

Yeah, I kind of see it both ways. I mean, if Atlanta called up Gute and said "We'll send you London if you send us Lazard" I suspect he'd have Lazard cleaning out his locker before he even got off the phone with ATL...

But at the same time as said elsewhere I don't think the talent gap is an adequate explanation for the discrepancy in both teams' respective offensive performances. Pitts is probably the most egregious example in fact - just about every neutral observer has spent much of the season just flat out gobsmacked at how chronically under-utilized/misutilized he has been.

In general I probably would say that Atlanta has more talent than us in the pass catching positions but it's not a huge night-and-day gap. And like with Pitts, the passing game on the whole has been under-utilized in Atlanta (30th in the league in total pass attempts right now) so it's not like that extra passcatching talent is really responsible for them having the 7th-most points scored in the league while we've got the 25th-most.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

@Sunshinepacker see above for him gushing about Pitts.

Yes, I read that, which is why I didn't understand the argument that the Falcons pass catchers weren't much better than the Packer's. He was effusive in his praise of Pitts but it didn't seem to translate into the comparison of the Packer's pass catchers vs. the Titan's pass catchers.

 

[PackAttack12]

Yes, I read that, which is why I didn't understand the argument that the Falcons pass catchers weren't much better than the Packer's. He was effusive in his praise of Pitts but it didn't seem to translate into the comparison of the Packer's pass catchers vs. the Titan's pass catchers.

The thought of what Rodgers could do with Pitts. Lord have mercy.

 

[Dantés]

His gap PLUS the gap at TE means the overall receiving group is much better. Why do you only include London in your analysis of receiving targets?

Because I already acknowledged your point re Pitts???

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Because I already acknowledged your point re Pitts???

But you ignored it when evaluating the overall difference between receiving options. My point is that the guys catching passes for the Falcons are materially better than the guys catching passes for the Packers. That’s all i was saying. My apologies if we’ve been arguing over a simple misunderstanding.

 

[Dantés]

But you ignored it when evaluating the overall difference between receiving options. My point is that the guys catching passes for the Falcons are materially better than the guys catching passes for the Packers. That’s all i was saying. My apologies if we’ve been arguing over a simple misunderstanding.

I continued to talk only about London because we seemed to agree about Pitts.

Basically my point is this:

London
Pitts
Zaccheaus
Hodge
Byrd

Is not gigantically better than:

Lazard
Jones
Watson
Doubs
Cobb

That's what I'm saying. London, as a rookie is probably better than any receiver the Packers currently have, but not by a big margin. Pitts is obviously a superior player to anyone on the Packers and if one wanted to give them the nod because of his presence, I get that. But the rest of their top pass catchers are actually worse than Green Bay's.

So the gap isn't large. So what I am saying is that the Falcons' superior offensive performance on the season is decidedly not because of personnel. It's because of execution and commitment to running a scheme. The Packers have more talent on offense, but they've failed at the levels of execution and especially playing within the design of the offense.

 

[longtimefan]

Lazard and Drake stats:

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The rookie found the end zone for the first time since Week 3 on a tough seven-yard grab between two defenders just past the midway point of the third quarter. London still couldn't clear the 40-yard mark, however, making it four consecutive games for the first-round selection under that modest threshold. London's upside is likely to be capped as long as Marcus Mariota remains in a starting role, but he'll hope to boost his numbers in a Week 11 matchup at home a week from Sunday against the inconsistent Bears defense.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

And it makes absolutely no sense to point to that small disparity in talent as the reason why Atlanta is 12th in scoring offense and Green Bay is 25th when the Falcons use their pass catchers less than anyone in the entire league.

The discussion started with you mentioning Rodgers contract is preventing from the Packers to surround him with enough talented pass catchers. I replied to it by mentioning that the Falcons are capable of doing it while Matt Ryan accounts for a larger cap hit while not being on the roster anymore. I didn't hint that's the reason for Atlanta being a better scoring offense at all.

Agree...and to that last point - sure it makes sense, IF you want to justify a narrative.

Well, it was Dantes who changed the narrative after I refuted his initial one.

London I think can be a WR1, Lazard at best is a WR1b depending on the team. (AT BEST FOLKS...don't freak out)

This season should work as clear evidence that Lazard is nowhere near being a WR1b.

That's what I'm saying. London, as a rookie is probably better than any receiver the Packers currently have, but not by a big margin. Pitts is obviously a superior player to anyone on the Packers and if one wanted to give them the nod because of his presence, I get that. But the rest of their top pass catchers are actually worse than Green Bay's.

So the gap isn't large.

You admit that the Falcons have two better pass catchers than the Packers, with Pitts being an elite player, but yet the gap isn't large because their #3 isn't better than anyone on the Packers??? Doesn't make any sense.

 

[tynimiller]

This season should work as clear evidence that Lazard is nowhere near being a WR1b.

I said at his best, and not to freak out or aka run with it. I'm an not saying Lazard is that - he is a clear complimentary type guy who at his best a team's WR1B that can easily put forth 800 yards, 8 TD level production. Call it WR2 if you want, however if someone feels London right now is WR1 material he is being out produced by a WR2 in Lazard in many categories.

 

[Schultz]

Regarding Atlanta.
1. I am surprised how little they use C. Patterson as a receiving option.
2. Zaccheus catch % is really good.

 

[Dantés]

The discussion started with you mentioning Rodgers contract is preventing from the Packers to surround him with enough talented pass catchers. I replied to it by mentioning that the Falcons are capable of doing it while Matt Ryan accounts for a larger cap hit while not being on the roster anymore. I didn't hint that's the reason for Atlanta being a better scoring offense at all.

Well, it was Dantes who changed the narrative after I refuted his initial one.

You admit that the Falcons have two better pass catchers than the Packers, with Pitts being an elite player, but yet the gap isn't large because their #3 isn't better than anyone on the Packers??? Doesn't make any sense.

All false. All drivel.

Original points:

The Packers are paying Rodgers to overcome deficiencies on offense. That's an irrefutable fact. You may disagree, but that's simply because you don't understand what you're talking about despite your impulse to correct literally everyone.

The Packers are dramatically more talented on offense than the Falcons. Again-- irrefutable. You changed the narrative to pass-catcher only because you find excuses to disagree even when there isn't room for doing so. Even you probably understand that there are more players on an offense than just receivers. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit.

The Packers have significantly underperformed on offense relative to the Falcons despite being significantly more talented because they have failed to execute and particular failed to execute within the design of the offense. Again, this is painfully obvious if one: 1) watches the games and 2) understands what they are looking at. I cannot confirm either, in your case. The Falcons are succeeding because they are executing scheme and game plan.

Your insistence on focusing on the pass catchers just reveals how clueless you are on this matter. Atlanta has the 2nd lowest pass rate in the NFL. They are as minimally reliant on receiving talent for their success as its possible to be. Mariota is averaging 23 pass attempts per game.

Finally-- I know that my arguments don't make any sense to you. That's how I know I'm on the right track.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I said at his best, and not to freak out or aka run with it. I'm an not saying Lazard is that - he is a clear complimentary type guy who at his best a team's WR1B that can easily put forth 800 yards, 8 TD level production. Call it WR2 if you want, however if someone feels London right now is WR1 material he is being out produced by a WR2 in Lazard in many categories.

You're right, Lazard's numbers are actually pretty good. While I don't consider him a legit #1 receiver he has the potential of ending up as a solid #2 for several seasons moving forward.

That might result in him asking for too much money this offseason for the Packers to re-sign him though.

All false. All drivel.

Original points:

The Packers are paying Rodgers to overcome deficiencies on offense. That's an irrefutable fact. You may disagree, but that's simply because you don't understand what you're talking about despite your impulse to correct literally everyone.

The Packers are dramatically more talented on offense than the Falcons. Again-- irrefutable. You changed the narrative to pass-catcher only because you find excuses to disagree even when there isn't room for doing so. Even you probably understand that there are more players on an offense than just receivers. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit.

The Packers have significantly underperformed on offense relative to the Falcons despite being significantly more talented because they have failed to execute and particular failed to execute within the design of the offense. Again, this is painfully obvious if one: 1) watches the games and 2) understands what they are looking at. I cannot confirm either, in your case. The Falcons are succeeding because they are executing scheme and game plan.

Your insistence on focusing on the pass catchers just reveals how clueless you are on this matter. Atlanta has the 2nd lowest pass rate in the NFL. They are as minimally reliant on receiving talent for their success as its possible to be. Mariota is averaging 23 pass attempts per game.

Finally-- I know that my arguments don't make any sense to you. That's how I know I'm on the right track.

The only thing that's truly irrefutable is your ineptitude of having a civilized conversation with someone who has a different point of view. And that's actually pretty lame.

 

[Packerbacker1996]

As long as Watson continues to improve the future 1$2 will be Doubs/Watson with Lazard as #3 . Lazard is best in the slot or TE

 

[Deleted member 6794]

As long as Watson continues to improve the future 1$2 will be Doubs/Watson with Lazard as #3 . Lazard is best in the slot or TE

Lazard is a free agent after this season. I expect another team to offer him more money than the Packers are willing to.

 

[tynimiller]

You're right, Lazard's numbers are actually pretty good. While I don't consider him a legit #1 receiver he has the potential of ending up as a solid #2 for several seasons moving forward.

That might result in him asking for too much money this offseason for the Packers to re-sign him though.

Lazard is in the same arena as MVS but in a different way - MVS offers HR plays, Lazard is more a sure thing, possession receiver with near TE level blocking ability. I could see a team with a VERY strong TE room really be attracted to Lazard as their #2 WR and pay more than we would want.

IF Green Bay somehow manages a cap magic deal with Lazard, I really want it timing wise to have an out at the same time as Doubs and Watson rookie deals come up...personally I think Lazard is going to price himself beyond what GB will be willing to try and work in the cap.

 

[Packerbacker1996]

Lazard is a free agent after this season. I expect another team to offer him more money than the Packers are willing to.

You prabobly right. I like Lazard but I would not pay him more then 10-12 per year. And if if... Watson continues to progress and with Doubs looking very good already it won't be hard for Gut to let him go and pick up a vet in FA to replace him as #3.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

IF Green Bay somehow manages a cap magic deal with Lazard, I really want it timing wise to have an out at the same time as Doubs and Watson rookie deals come up...personally I think Lazard is going to price himself beyond what GB will be willing to try and work in the cap.

One thing to remember is that Lazard was seemingly disappointed in the Packers management this offseason as he didn't sign his tender until mid-June.

He might not even be interested in coming back for next year.

 

[Mondio]

I’m ok with him not wanting to come back. He’s ok, but there are a ton of ok receivers across this league. We need receivers but your don’t build a team paying ok receivers big money

 

[Sanguine camper]

Doubs can replace Lazard's passing production. Given the Packers salary cap hell in 2023, Gute will have little choice other than to let him walk. Getting virtually nothing from Amari, Sternberger and Deguara really hurts the offense. A other problem is the poor coaching in not having the RB's play a bigger role in the passing game.

 

[Dantés]

The season is over.

They won’t play Love until it’s mathematically confirmed, but they ought to start now.