Tearing it Down

[PackAttack12]

We do a ton of bs restructures and “run it back” yet again hoping 12 magic will return.

Is 12 cooked? Washed? Honest question.

 

[Magooch]

In light of the Indy Colts hiring Jeff Saturday as their interim coach, with only HS coaching experience & his playing experience on his resume... I think GB should fire everybody and ...Hire:
GM - Aaron Rodgers (after accepting his resignation as player AND repayment of $40.8Mil SB to give us some '23 cap room)
HC - Ahman Green - put his esports head coaching experience to use.
OC - Brett Favre - he always loved drawing up a new play in the huddle.
DC - George Koonce - on the GB Board of Directors & living in the area anyway, would save on relocation costs.
WR Coaches - Sterling Sharpe & James Lofton
RB Coach - John Kunz
OL Coach - Mark Tauscher assisted by Larry McCarren
DL Coach - Aaron Kampman
DB Coaches - Charles Woodson & Nick Collins
ST Coach - Chris Jacke
Head of Player Development - Don Majkowski

Might as well kick out Russ Ball and have Favre take his job, I'm sure he'd manage to find a bit of extra cash for us...

 

[ARPackFan]

It’s going to be absolutely hilarious to see the back pedaling if the Packers beat the Cowboys at home on Sunday.

Never underestimate the ability of Mike McCarthy to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

[Packerbacker1996]

It’s going to be absolutely hilarious to see the back pedaling if the Packers beat the Cowboys at home on Sunday.

If they show up believing they can win and play 60 minute game turnover free then it can absolutely happened.

Question is, are they still a team that believes in themselves and each other and are they willing to go to WAR togheder.

 

[longtimefan]

Is 12 cooked? Washed? Honest question.

For 50 mill yes

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yesterday was the clear and deciding piece of data: time to tear it down.

If Rodgers doesn't want to cooperate, then you have to leverage him and force his hand. Let him choose between the following options:

1) Retire
2) Contractually accommodate a trade
3) Spend your last remaining seasons riding the bench on a rebuilding team

There's no way #3 would work as Rodgers is set to get paid $60 million next year.

The receiving corps is thrift shop at best and the oline is great at pass blocking and awful at run blocking.

The offensive line hasn't been great in pass protection this season. Or last year for that matter.

Likewise, you've got Russ Ball and Gute throwing away cap space on defensive players that don't do much (Campbell, Douglas, Savage), or an old PK Crosby, while leaving offensive minded LaFleur with table scraps like Sammy Watkins, Mercedes Lewis, R. Cobb and undrafted Lazard and expecting a main course of Super Bowl du jour.

I don't understand the reasoning behind exercising the fifth year option on Savage. But in my opinion both Campbell and Douglas were signed to reasonable deals this offseason based on their play last year.

 

[tynimiller]

Is 12 cooked? Washed? Honest question.

With his present hopeless demised and defeated mood at least that I gather I think we may be seeing the real end. Just starting though, and a guy of his skill level though is gonna take a while to not be good any longer. It all is unraveling at once, what WRs we expected growth and contribution from are injured it seems always (Lazard, Watkins, Cobb)….OL guys either have regressed (Newman, maybe Myers) or cannot stay healthy or play fully healthy (Bakh, Jenkins, Runyan too now)….Devondre plummeted in play from last year which I expected because last year was Godly but not this much I didn’t see coming, Barnes hurt has hindered our run defense packages, Savage regressed, Stokes regressed….Tonyan and Jones are two guys that have shined….Dillon has been very hot or cold but lot more cold….Amari finally showing pulse after terrible start…..Barry losing faith of his players…MLF play calls….lack of pre snap motion (Rodgers is openly not a fan)…Watson injury issues too now.

It is a LOT of bad, and while I think Rodgers is an abysmal leader in games, he is unwavering off the field which is good…that’s one of the few positive things I can say about Rodgers at the present time.

 

[PackerDNA]

Never underestimate the ability of Mike McCarthy to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

That said, overall he's a good coach, and brought us to our only super bowl in the last 26 years. He's an even better man and person. I hope the fans give him a huge ovation Sunday.

 

[PackAttack12]

With his present hopeless demised and defeated mood at least that I gather I think we may be seeing the real end. Just starting though, and a guy of his skill level though is gonna take a while to not be good any longer. It all is unraveling at once, what WRs we expected growth and contribution from are injured it seems always (Lazard, Watkins, Cobb)….OL guys either have regressed (Newman, maybe Myers) or cannot stay healthy or play fully healthy (Bakh, Jenkins, Runyan too now)….Devondre plummeted in play from last year which I expected because last year was Godly but not this much I didn’t see coming, Barnes hurt has hindered our run defense packages, Savage regressed, Stokes regressed….Tonyan and Jones are two guys that have shined….Dillon has been very hot or cold but lot more cold….Amari finally showing pulse after terrible start…..Barry losing faith of his players…MLF play calls….lack of pre snap motion (Rodgers is openly not a fan)…Watson injury issues too now.

It is a LOT of bad, and while I think Rodgers is an abysmal leader in games, he is unwavering off the field which is good…that’s one of the few positive things I can say about Rodgers at the present time.

I can sum this up by saying that people have a problem with Rodgers' attitude and demeanor only when the team isn't winning. Because he's been the exact same guy his entire career.

4-6 in 2016, people were writing his obituary. Running the table and getting to the NFC championship game, people were waving their pom poms.

His on the field demeanor may not be what you would prefer, but he's basically holding true to who he has always been.

Rodgers has been, by his standards, pretty bad this season. But like you alluded to, there are tons of reasons that are helping contribute to it. Rodgers not playing well individually when you DON'T consider those factors just makes it even worse.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The offensive line hasn't been great in pass protection this season. Or last year for that matter.

Going by PFF's EFF measure (which measures pass block efficiency) the oline is pretty good at pass blocking:

Bakh is at 98.3
Runyan is at 98.4
Josh Myers at 99.0
Jenkins at 97.3
Zach Tom at 97.9
Others, not so great.

Overall though, that's fairly good in today's NFL

 

[tynimiller]

I can sum this up by saying that people have a problem with Rodgers' attitude and demeanor only when the team isn't winning. Because he's been the exact same guy his entire career.

4-6 in 2016, people were writing his obituary. Running the table and getting to the NFC championship game, people were waving their pom poms.

His on the field demeanor may not be what you would prefer, but he's basically holding true to who he has always been.

Rodgers has been, by his standards, pretty bad this season. But like you alluded to, there are tons of reasons that are helping contribute to it. Rodgers not playing well individually when you DON'T consider those factors just makes it even worse.

Some yes, I’ve NEVER liked his attitude and demeanor, if I were his coach i doubt I could stand it for long. One way street accountability is one of the worst traits and I sense he has it.

I have always said I LOVE our QB in Green Bay, I’m not a fan of the person though.

 

[Dantés]

There's no way #3 would work as Rodgers is set to get paid $60 million next year.

So what?

 

[Dantés]

The offensive line hasn't been great in pass protection this season. Or last year for that matter.

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Rodgers' biggest problem isn't protection, it's performance.

From a clean pocket, the only QB's worse than him in EPA/play are P.J. Walker, Sam Ehlinger, Davis Mills, and Kenny Pickett.

Rodgers himself is the biggest problem.

 

[Scotland Yard]

I don't understand the reasoning behind exercising the fifth year option on Savage. But in my opinion both Campbell and Douglas were signed to reasonable deals this offseason based on their play last year.

I don't disagree with your point about Campbell and Douglas.

However, my assertion is that with an offensive minded HC LaFleur and QB Rodgers that cap space is better utilized at WR/TE/OL.

 

[tynimiller]

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Rodgers' biggest problem isn't protection, it's performance.

From a clean pocket, the only QB's worse than him in EPA/play are P.J. Walker, Sam Ehlinger, Davis Mills, and Kenny Pickett.

Rodgers himself is the biggest problem.

No stats, plays or grades regardless of who presents them will ever change Capt’s opinion.

 

[Mondio]

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Rodgers' biggest problem isn't protection, it's performance.

From a clean pocket, the only QB's worse than him in EPA/play are P.J. Walker, Sam Ehlinger, Davis Mills, and Kenny Pickett.

Rodgers himself is the biggest problem.

That’s not really a true picture I don’t believe. What is their definition of a clean pocket? No pressure before ball is gone? We’ll the only time that happens is when the ball is out now on some short pass often at or behind LOS. I bet those don’t score high on their chart for “points” per play.

He’s not playing stellar, and last game he had 3-4 balls that were bad bad. But I don’t think a lot of these charts are taking everything into account.

Even last game, protection looked better, but then we missed a couple plays because he had to duck and move to set up oline blockers and then escape pocket to have time, more than a few times. It’s a rare play to drop back and survey field. And even then, who’s running the routes?

 

[tynimiller]

I don't disagree with your point about Campbell and Douglas.

However, my assertion is that with an offensive minded HC LaFleur and QB Rodgers that cap space is better utilized at WR/TE/OL.

Eh many years everyone screamed get him a halfway decent defense and we would win in Playoffs more

 

[tynimiller]

That’s not really a true picture I don’t believe. What is their definition of a clean pocket? No pressure before ball is gone? We’ll the only time that happens is when the ball is out now on some short pass often at or behind LOS. I bet those don’t score high on their chart for “points” per play.

He’s not playing stellar, and last game he had 3-4 balls that were bad bad. But I don’t think a lot of these charts are taking everything into account.

Even last game, protection looked better, but then we missed a couple plays because he had to duck and move to set up oline blockers and then escape pocket to have time, more than a few times. It’s a rare play to drop back and survey field. And even then, who’s running the routes?

It’s rare in ANY game to just stand there and have four seconds to survey. If that were the case being an NFL QB would be easy.

 

[Dantés]

That’s not really a true picture I don’t believe. What is their definition of a clean pocket? No pressure before ball is gone? We’ll the only time that happens is when the ball is out now on some short pass often at or behind LOS. I bet those don’t score high on their chart for “points” per play.

He’s not playing stellar, and last game he had 3-4 balls that were bad bad. But I don’t think a lot of these charts are taking everything into account.

Even last game, protection looked better, but then we missed a couple plays because he had to duck and move to set up oline blockers and then escape pocket to have time, more than a few times. It’s a rare play to drop back and survey field. And even then, who’s running the routes?

The stats reflect what I am seeing when I watch Rodgers this year.

Protection has been *a* problem.

But his play has been *the* problem.

And here’s an important aspect of it— if you’re getting paid like an elite QB but you can’t make plays when things aren’t ideal, you are an albatross. The other QB’s who get paid like Rodgers make a lot of plays when things aren’t breaking just right.

It’s more the teams fault than his. They had the opportunity to trade an aging QB for a haul and start over with a young player already on the roster. They decided to pay him the moon and keep trying. It was the safe move, but also the stupid one.

 

[longtimefan]

That said, overall he's a good coach, and brought us to our only super bowl in the last 26 years. He's an even better man and person. I hope the fans give him a huge ovation Sunday.

I think they will

 

[Mondio]

The stats reflect what I am seeing when I watch Rodgers this year.

Protection has been *a* problem.

But his play has been *the* problem.

And here’s an important aspect of it— if you’re getting paid like an elite QB but you can’t make plays when things aren’t ideal, you are an albatross. The other QB’s who get paid like Rodgers make a lot of plays when things aren’t breaking just right.

It’s more the teams fault than his. They had the opportunity to trade an aging QB for a haul and start over with a young player already on the roster. They decided to pay him the moon and keep trying. It was the safe move, but also the stupid one.

he hasn't been elite, that is true this year. But he also hasn't had much in the way of help. Toure made a big play this week, Doubs last week and outside that, maybe Lazard a time or 2 and Jones in one game. But I can count the passes where a receiver helped the QB. I lose track of plays where receivers didn't help or flat out made him look bad. heck, 2 plays last game by Sammy made Rodgers look bad, that's more than he had from all others combined in the way of helping.

But it's hard to really debate it after this last game being fresh in everyone's mind. There have been many more big plays that just weren't made either that are hurting his stats. So yeah, he hasn't been elite, but I don't think there is an elite QB that is going to look it either with the way everyone is playing. Last game, sure, can't throw 3 picks in the redzone or endzone or whatever it was and not be "the" reason. But much of this year, more plays have been missed by others than the QB. I have a hard time saying he's "the" problem.

I don't think trading him has ever been a serious option. I did then and still now, feel he'd retire rather than be traded. I could be wrong, but I don't think it was a real possibility. I think it was a "wake up, I want to talk to you" statement. and they did and it became moot immediately after.

 

[Mondio]

It’s rare in ANY game to just stand there and have four seconds to survey. If that were the case being an NFL QB would be easy.

I watched the Chiefs and Titans later that day and both those guys had such better pockets and protection it's not even comparable. Watch any other game. QB's getting chased around like Rodgers often is usually are sucking big time and last weeks performance are their every week performances. and there is more to it, than just time as well. Can have 15 seconds to find an open receiver but if they can't get open or when they do, the rush is now in his face and he has to avoid it, what good does it do? The timing in this offense hasn't been good. Last week he had two guys breaking free and when they do, he can't step in and throw, he has to duck and avoid a rush and move and by then, that window is gone.

anyway, people have been waiting a long time to really get after Aaron. After last game now they really get to go at him.

 

[tynimiller]

I watched the Chiefs and Titans later that day and both those guys had such better pockets and protection it's not even comparable. Watch any other game. QB's getting chased around like Rodgers often is usually are sucking big time and last weeks performance are their every week performances. and there is more to it, than just time as well. Can have 15 seconds to find an open receiver but if they can't get open or when they do, the rush is now in his face and he has to avoid it, what good does it do? The timing in this offense hasn't been good. Last week he had two guys breaking free and when they do, he can't step in and throw, he has to duck and avoid a rush and move and by then, that window is gone.

anyway, people have been waiting a long time to really get after Aaron. After last game now they really get to go at him.

I can’t get past paywall but either next gen or some where you can get average time before passing the ball, if what you’re saying is true I’d suspect Aaron will be significantly fast on the trigger because of having to get rid of it.

Anyone find stat or similar?

 

[Dantés]

he hasn't been elite, that is true this year. But he also hasn't had much in the way of help. Toure made a big play this week, Doubs last week and outside that, maybe Lazard a time or 2 and Jones in one game. But I can count the passes where a receiver helped the QB. I lose track of plays where receivers didn't help or flat out made him look bad. heck, 2 plays last game by Sammy made Rodgers look bad, that's more than he had from all others combined in the way of helping.

But it's hard to really debate it after this last game being fresh in everyone's mind. There have been many more big plays that just weren't made either that are hurting his stats. So yeah, he hasn't been elite, but I don't think there is an elite QB that is going to look it either with the way everyone is playing. Last game, sure, can't throw 3 picks in the redzone or endzone or whatever it was and not be "the" reason. But much of this year, more plays have been missed by others than the QB. I have a hard time saying he's "the" problem.

I don't think trading him has ever been a serious option. I did then and still now, feel he'd retire rather than be traded. I could be wrong, but I don't think it was a real possibility. I think it was a "wake up, I want to talk to you" statement. and they did and it became moot immediately after.

I'll readily admit that there have been lots of examples where he just wasn't helped at all. But what's freshest in my mind is Sunday, a day on which he played like garbage all on his own.

Regardless, what's clear is that this team as currently constructed cannot compete for a Super Bowl. And they don't have the means to improve it in any substantial way. They need to find a way to move on and start over.

 

[Mondio]

I can’t get past paywall but either next gen or some where you can get average time before passing the ball, if what you’re saying is true I’d suspect Aaron will be significantly fast on the trigger because of having to get rid of it.

Anyone find stat or similar?

and those are going to be equalled out too by the time he runs right, ducks back in a pocket and then shoots on the left side looking for a receiver. it's a lot of time, it's not time in a pocket because of good protection.

Looking at a passing chart is probably a better indicator. But then that won't break down, check downs vs 1st read pass at the LOS or behind. I don't watch a ton of football anymore, but it seems pretty apparent, GB's passing game is severely limited vs other teams in almost aspect. Every game I'm thinking man we need guys to make that play, I wish we had the pocket, look at that time, look at that break on the route. How are they so wide open...