Tearing it Down

[kevans74]

Seen a tweet earlier that was slightly dramatic, but at the same time really made me think....

"The Packers pay an aging Rodgers a boatload of money & they don't support him with the necessary pieces. The Packers pay Alexander a boatload of money & they don't put him on the opponents WR1. The Packers have the best RB duo in the NFL and don't use them. Make it make sense"

Lol this pretty much

I really just don't understand not trading for a Claypool, Jeudy or Hockenson -- provided these guys were available

I mean, AR is going to retire eventually so you might as well put some young, PROVEN talent around him. If it works out, you extend them.

 

[tynimiller]

The Packers loaded up for the 2022 season even more so once Davante chose not to come back...at literally every position except for WR. You cannot afford to load up with premiere talent everywhere. This defense should be special...however had we resigned Davante, there is a good freaking chance the trickle down affect of that would have again left us with a limited defense and EVERYONE is complaining yet again that our defensive weakness illustrates Gute inability to build a winning team.

Many fans simply cannot live in an unfiltered view of things.

 

[PackAttack12]

Specifically on the Rodgers’ front, that’s the catch 22. If you pay an elite QB, it’s hard to also pay supporting cast members.

It’s why I favored trading Rodgers to keeping him. He’s still great, but at his age he can’t overcome deficits like he needs too. He’s not mobile.

It’s hard, but not impossible.

 

[PackAttack12]

The Packers loaded up for the 2022 season even more so once Davante chose not to come back...at literally every position except for WR. You cannot afford to load up with premiere talent everywhere. This defense should be special...however had we resigned Davante, there is a good freaking chance the trickle down affect of that would have again left us with a limited defense and EVERYONE is complaining yet again that our defensive weakness illustrates Gute inability to build a winning team.

Many fans simply cannot live in an unfiltered view of things.

We are going on multiple years of Gute quite simply not doing enough to address the wide receiver room. For a while, it was masked by Rodgers/Adams being such an insanely lethal combo. Many on this forum have been banging on it for years. It's not something that mysteriously popped up.

But when you routinely do not make it a priority, or even really consider the need for it much at all, you're left with a complete mess with Davante's departure.

Again, other teams were able to make deals happen at the deadline. The whole "well the Packers were in the mix and tried" is the most played out line and I'm frankly tired of it.

Sammy Watkins might be his most impressive acquisition and he can't stay healthy. Who could've seen that coming? Beyond that, you've got Jimmy Graham, Devin Funchess, UDFA's, and miss after miss in the draft with mid round picks.

Then there's the minor detail that you used a 1st and a 4th on a quarterback that will prove to never suit up as the team's starting quarterback.

There's been opportunities. Lots of them.

Now...could Christian Watson, Romeo Doubs, and Samari Toure prove to be excellent additions? Sure. I hope they do. But you're again shopping on the clearance rack for wide receivers. With the exception of Watson.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The Packers loaded up for the 2022 season even more so once Davante chose not to come back...at literally every position except for WR. You cannot afford to load up with premiere talent everywhere. This defense should be special...however had we resigned Davante, there is a good freaking chance the trickle down affect of that would have again left us with a limited defense and EVERYONE is complaining yet again that our defensive weakness illustrates Gute inability to build a winning team.

Many fans simply cannot live in an unfiltered view of things.

Premier talent leading to one of the poorer defenses in the league, huh? At least they have premiere talent at backup QB and RB!!

 

[Mondio]

We can second guess it all, but at the end of the day THIS team is underperforming. Plain and simple. The defense should be better, instead they've stepped backwards a couple steps if you ask me. The offense I figured would take a step back without Devante, but would be at least be serviceable and for much of this year the run game has not worked when it needed too and the passing game has been abysmal. The offensive line has been atrocious and it all starts there. Hard to gauge anything else behind that line.

 

[tynimiller]

We are going on multiple years of Gute quite simply not doing enough to address the wide receiver room.

In the manner which would satisfy you, or some others. There is a massive key and difference there.

In Gute's time he has used 7 draft picks over 5 drafts on WRs. He has brought in Randall Cobb, Sammy Watkins...more may be escaping me now but believe that is man trades or FA signings.

MVS grew into something special in the groove of what he is receiver wise few are (no for those reading this, that doesn't mean I view him as a guy you want as a #1 or even #2 depending on TE or RB weapons that wouldn't work, but he brings special traits). Otherwise though, for whatever reason none of his other draft picks from 2018-2021 have had or did have it click for them at least here in Green Bay.

Gute also was willing to sign Adams to a crazy (some would say idiotic) level type contract, Adams merely chose to go back home rather than stay here with Rodgers.

For years many fans have also been saying we have to provide Aaron and the offense a better and more capable defense (plus special teams). There isn't a single team out there that can prioritize spending in FA or day 1 of the drafts on every single position on a roster - at some point at some position you have to roll dice on familiar players to you already, Day 2, 3 or UDFAs or unproven or mildly successful guys elsewhere on digestible contracts (think Rasul last year, Campbell even...Veldheer, Dennis Kelly, Rudy Ford and Nixon good examples this year).


I am saying all this because it is true, not because I'm necessarily a fan of first how things have turned out or secondly because I would have done the same. I was screaming for George Pickens this last year rather than Watson - yes Watson may have the physical gifts to become a 9+ out of 10 WR but presently I saw him as like a 6 out of 10...George came into the league as an 8 or so at worst case when we needed the help. Personally, I would have tried to figure out a way to keep MVS, even if that meant Reed and Rasul both don't happen....the Sammy Watkins signing was excellent due to when healthy he still produces but his health is why he was affordable. We still don't even know what our WR room is truly...Lazard/Watson/Cobb/Watkins have all been healthy how many times for a game this year?

 

[tynimiller]

Premier talent leading to one of the poorer defenses in the league, huh? At least they have premiere talent at backup QB and RB!!

Actually no one knows whether their is premiere level type talent at back up QB, and anyone claiming we do or do not are ignorant IMO at this point of time.

 

[tynimiller]

We can second guess it all, but at the end of the day THIS team is underperforming. Plain and simple. The defense should be better, instead they've stepped backwards a couple steps if you ask me. The offense I figured would take a step back without Devante, but would be at least be serviceable and for much of this year the run game has not worked when it needed too and the passing game has been abysmal. The offensive line has been atrocious and it all starts there. Hard to gauge anything else behind that line.

Amen...the OL cannot stay healthy or decide if it is going to do well or not....our WR room literally is like an ER waiting room (makes it even easier for folks to run with their WR woes and tears)...Rodgers has been a little bit of an impatient leader (putting it politely so folks don't lose their crap for being critical of Rodgers)...MLF has not been calling the best offense IMO and Joe Barry however makes the offensive playcalling look genius with how rough our Defense has looked.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Actually no one knows whether their is premiere level type talent at back up QB, and anyone claiming we do or do not are ignorant IMO at this point of time.

Sorry, i was being sarcastic

 

[AKCheese]

Anyone who thinks that whoever we would have picked with the two Love picks is delusional. I’ll be the first to admit I didnt like/understand the pick. But that pick is not our problem(s). I do remember following the draft here and SOMEBODY when we got on the clock said “ ok lot’s of options here just not Jordan Love” so - that dude jinxed us LOL

 

[McKnowledge]

Gute Inactive

Packers need a new voice and vision.

 

[OldSchool101]

Anyone who thinks that whoever we would have picked with the two Love picks is delusional. I’ll be the first to admit I didnt like/understand the pick. But that pick is not our problem(s). I do remember following the draft here and SOMEBODY when we got on the clock said “ ok lot’s of options here just not Jordan Love” so - that dude jinxed us LOL

I’m 75% certain that our Day 1 selection in 2020 would’ve been a Defender or OL (Isaiah Wilson or Jeff Gladney etc.).
Even today we still talk about adding a WR. Every year it’s “please add a WR” and we just don’t. How many WR have we selected in Day 1 with Rodgers as a starter? Even now, when we look desperate, we sit pat.

The chances of us picking Tee Higgins was maybe at best 15%.
The chances of a WR altogether in some capacity (natural or trade) was maybe 20% in that top 40 area.

 

[Magooch]

I’m 75% certain that our Day 1 selection in 2020 would’ve been a Defender or OL (Isaiah Wilson or Jeff Gladney etc.).
Even today we still talk about adding a WR. Every year it’s “please add a WR” and we just don’t. How many WR have we selected in Day 1 with Rodgers as a starter? Even now, when we look desperate, we sit pat.

The chances of us picking Tee Higgins was maybe at best 15%.
The chances of a WR altogether in some capacity (natural or trade) was maybe 20% in that top 40 area.

Well, to be fair, that would probably still be a better outcome, no?
I know many (myself included) wanted to see us go WR in that draft...but even if we didn't it would have been preferable to pick someone who at least has some tangible impact for us. Our OL sure could use some work right now. Maybe if we draft a defender in 2020 we don't feel the need to grab two of them in the 2022 1st round and can spend one of those on a top WR. You get the idea...
Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but I think it's not so much "We failed in drafting Jordan Love instead of a WR" but rather "We failed by electing to not draft a player who would have had any sort of meaningful impact for us"

(Nothing against Love btw. I said it elsewhere but my issue is that we have refused to fully commit to building around Love while also refusing to fully commit to maximizing our window with Rodgers.)

 

[tynimiller]

I’m 75% certain that our Day 1 selection in 2020 would’ve been a Defender or OL (Isaiah Wilson or Jeff Gladney etc.).
Even today we still talk about adding a WR. Every year it’s “please add a WR” and we just don’t. How many WR have we selected in Day 1 with Rodgers as a starter? Even now, when we look desperate, we sit pat.

The chances of us picking Tee Higgins was maybe at best 15%.
The chances of a WR altogether in some capacity (natural or trade) was maybe 20% in that top 40 area.

I said something similar in the chat....screamed with excitement thinking we made the move for Michael Pittman.

 

[tynimiller]

Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but I think it's not so much "We failed in drafting Jordan Love instead of a WR" but rather "We failed by electing to not draft a player who would have had any sort of meaningful impact for us"

(Nothing against Love btw. I said it elsewhere but my issue is that we have refused to fully commit to building around Love while also refusing to fully commit to maximizing our window with Rodgers.)

Absolutely agree....I remember thinking I wanted Pittman, but would have loved to hear Isaiah Wilson or Gladney

 

[OldSchool101]

Well, to be fair, that would probably still be a better outcome, no?
I know many (myself included) wanted to see us go WR in that draft...but even if we didn't it would have been preferable to pick someone who at least has some tangible impact for us. Our OL sure could use some work right now. Maybe if we draft a defender in 2020 we don't feel the need to grab two of them in the 2022 1st round and can spend one of those on a top WR. You get the idea...
Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but I think it's not so much "We failed in drafting Jordan Love instead of a WR" but rather "We failed by electing to not draft a player who would have had any sort of meaningful impact for us"

(Nothing against Love btw. I said it elsewhere but my issue is that we have refused to fully commit to building around Love while also refusing to fully commit to maximizing our window with Rodgers.)

I agree with the global argument of us not supplying #12 with enough resources. I did an Excerpt on the failure of resources towards our Offense in general several seasons ago, well before the 2020 draft. In that I used Calculator Soup to establish a points value to each O selection and weighed it and compared to Defense into a general ratio.
GB had spent 2.5:1 ratio towards Defense over about a 10 year consecutive period.

Obviously we can argue that Love was not any help to Aaron as far as a usable producer. So that ratio is now likely 3:1 or maybe slightly higher like 3.25:1
I would bet money that we have spent less resources at O producers under Aaron Rodgers tenure than possibly any QB not just today, but in league history of QBs playing through a 3rd contract etc.

I don’t think at the time anyone realized just how inequitable the Draft Capital was. I saw it get tossed around a bunch after I posted that. So I didn’t want you to think I wasn’t aware or that somehow I think it’s ok. My argument is opposite. We’ve been almost arrogantly opposed to providing #12 with superior talent at Receiver/TE. That goes with FA also. The only notable name was Cook and he was sent walking papers because Helped Win a Divisional playoff game. That’s the thanks we gave him.

The Patriots oddly enough went the exact same route (lack of O draft capital) But what our staff failed to recognize in their attempt to mirror that franchise, is that NE hammered down on FA at WR with more than a few big names as weapons for Tom. Sammy Watkins looks like dirty Pea soup compared to their acquisitions (Sorry Sammy!)

 

[SudsMcBucky]

Well, to be fair, that would probably still be a better outcome, no?
I know many (myself included) wanted to see us go WR in that draft...but even if we didn't it would have been preferable to pick someone who at least has some tangible impact for us. Our OL sure could use some work right now. Maybe if we draft a defender in 2020 we don't feel the need to grab two of them in the 2022 1st round and can spend one of those on a top WR. You get the idea...
Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but I think it's not so much "We failed in drafting Jordan Love instead of a WR" but rather "We failed by electing to not draft a player who would have had any sort of meaningful impact for us"

(Nothing against Love btw. I said it elsewhere but my issue is that we have refused to fully commit to building around Love while also refusing to fully commit to maximizing our window with Rodgers.)

To be honest, I don't even think that thought is hindsight 20/20. Everyone I know *****ed about it at the very moment that pick was made and also everyone I know was longing for a WR at that spot. When they traded up in that draft, I thought for sure they had a WR that slipped to that spot that they loved. Gute just got too cute there trying to make his stamp on the club with HIS future HOF QB pick. Colossal failure.

 

[OldSchool101]

To be honest, I don't even think that thought is hindsight 20/20. Everyone I know *****ed about it at the very moment that pick was made and also everyone I know was longing for a WR at that spot. When they traded up in that draft, I thought for sure they had a WR that slipped to that spot that they loved. Gute just got too cute there trying to make his stamp on the club with HIS future HOF QB pick. Colossal failure.

The worst part was how it fractured our relationship with #12. That was really a total Kick in the face.

 

[PikeBadger]

I am fully on board with watching the rest of this season play out. Maybe the Packers somehow rebound. However, I think the smart money would bet they don't. If that proves true, you've got a super expensive roster that clearly can't win a Super Bowl, which means it's time to tear down and start over. Here's what I hope would happen or what I think would be smart, with a goal in mind of being competitive again in 2025.

Trade/Retire:

-Aaron Rodgers: Hopefully one of the by-products of a teardown is that Rodgers would just retire. It would result in crippling cap implications, most notably in 2023, but the idea would be to take your medicine and move on. If he doesn't want to be done, trade him.

-David Bakhtiari: It the effort to stay healthy proves too much, Bakh should just hang it up. Otherwise I would seek to deal him. Again-- terrible cap implications, but you're just taking your medicine.

Trade/Release:

-Kenny Clark: I would guess that one could get a pretty decent return for a 27 yo of Clark's caliber on a reasonable base salary.

-Aaron Jones: Expectations would need to be tempered here because of age and position, but I would guess that the Packers could get something back for Jones.

-Preston Smith

-De'Vondre Campbell

-Rasul Douglas

Release:

-Darnell Savage: "That doesn't save any cap space!" you say. Yes, but it saves me having to watch Darnell Savage play football.

Allow to Walk:

-Adrian Amos
-Randall Cobb
-Dean Lowry
-Mason Crosby
-Allen Lazard
-Robert Tonyan
-Jarran Reed
-Marcedes Lewis
-Sammy Watkins
-Keisean Nixon
-Dallin Leavitt
-Rudy Ford
-Eric Wilson

Consider Resigning:

-Elgton Jenkins and/or Yosh Nijman: Both players are young enough that, with OL longevity, one could reasonably assume they're still contributors when GB rebounds as a team. Plus OL play will be key during the rebuilding phase so that other players on offense (esp. QB) can be accurately assessed.

Sign From the Outside:

-Literally No One: "What is a free agent?"

Conclusion: This would leave the Packers with a few building blocks, lots of draft capital, and crippling cap penalties. You retain Alexander and Gary as pieces for the future, while working on development for guys like Stokes, Walker, and Wyatt. On offense, you keep the OL mostly intact while the young WR's continue to grow. That should provide enough of an ecosystem that you could use 2023 to assess Love and either seek to build around him or move on from him in the future. In 2023, flood the roster with rookies, drafted and undrafted, and see who has the ability to stick during a season when you're taking the brunt of your cap medicine so that you have some flexibility moving forward.

I think your plan is too drastic. I'd definitely keep Clark. Build from the middle, outwards. He has always needed help and has really never gotten it. Imo, they should have drafted an interior DL in the first two rounds going back as far as 2018 or 19. Playing too many rookies too much is a disaster, plus their second contracts all come due at the same time. I think I'd hang on to Bakhtiara through the 23 season subject to decent health.

 

[tynimiller]

I think your plan is too drastic. I'd definitely keep Clark. Build from the middle, outwards. He has always needed help and has really never gotten it. Imo, they should have drafted an interior DL in the first two rounds going back as far as 2018 or 19. Playing too many rookies too much is a disaster, plus their second contracts all come due at the same time. I think I'd hang on to Bakhtiara through the 23 season subject to decent health.

I think Dantes is more so saying trade Clark because if you're entering a true rebuild you need to do at least two sizeable trades for draft capital back and Clark is in arguably his last prime years contract as a DL, holds his most immense value for other teams needing front line help. When you're rebuilding you have to keep most of your current rookie contract guys, unless you have an absolute stud and timing lines up he doesn't want to stick around for a rebuild (think if Gary wanted out right now)...that typically means you have the last three years worth of rookie guys, keep a few mid-tier vets around (on our team that would be Lazard, Yosh, Rasul and maybe Campbell) that are under contract and start hitting the draft...the moment you feel traction hitting you hit FA for spots that need and by that third season you're back to competing realistically for a legit playoff spot.

 

[Magooch]

To be honest, I don't even think that thought is hindsight 20/20. Everyone I know *****ed about it at the very moment that pick was made and also everyone I know was longing for a WR at that spot. When they traded up in that draft, I thought for sure they had a WR that slipped to that spot that they loved. Gute just got too cute there trying to make his stamp on the club with HIS future HOF QB pick. Colossal failure.

Yeah, in general I agree, but I guess my point is more not so much that picking Love himself was a failure BUT that picking Love and then choosing not to commit to that pick (and thus making his first years with the team a total non-factor) was the bigger error.

I don't know that it would have been the "right" move but I would have more respect for our management right now if they'd drafted Love and went all-in on committing our future to him, supplying with the necessary resources/capital to build on that project. Instead they decided to try and kick-start a rebuild only to turn around and move heaven and earth to bring Rodgers back only to again choose to not go all-in on him.

 

[PackAttack12]

Instead they decided to try and kick-start a rebuild only to turn around and move heaven and earth to bring Rodgers back only to again choose to not go all-in on him.

Excellent summation. Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I think Dantes is more so saying trade Clark because if you're entering a true rebuild you need to do at least two sizeable trades for draft capital back and Clark is in arguably his last prime years contract as a DL, holds his most immense value for other teams needing front line help. When you're rebuilding you have to keep most of your current rookie contract guys, unless you have an absolute stud and timing lines up he doesn't want to stick around for a rebuild (think if Gary wanted out right now)...that typically means you have the last three years worth of rookie guys, keep a few mid-tier vets around (on our team that would be Lazard, Yosh, Rasul and maybe Campbell) that are under contract and start hitting the draft...the moment you feel traction hitting you hit FA for spots that need and by that third season you're back to competing realistically for a legit playoff spot.

I would also trade Jaire since our current DC is quite literally burning the money the Packers spent on him with his defensive scheme. Could get quite a bit for him in trade. Better solution would be to hire a good DC but I’m trying to live in the real world here.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Without exception, neatly all the starters on the Packers defense have played great for significant stretches. What's frustrating is that they can't put it all together to form a great defense. Is it coaching? I think it is since most of the players have shown the ability to stand out. For the offense, it's more of a lack of talent than coaching.