Silverstein on contract situation

[adambr2]

What in the world is your obsession with one game?
Every single player to ever set foot on a football field has had an off game. What are you driving at? That since it was the last game it's the only one in your head? I get that.
Looking at the larger picture it's not one game that defines a career, body of work or even season. Rodgers has off days, Matthews has off days. It almost seems silly that you insist Raji is not a red chip player based on one game. Really? That's how you view the NFL?

No I agree, it doesn't define him, but he doesn't have the body of work in every other game to make up for it this year.

I never said Raji isn't a red chip player based on that, just have said that you don't give blue chip money to a red chip player.

We go through this with every potential FA. I heard the same certain comments that we would sign Cullen Jenkins, and sign Wells, and sign Jennings. It doesn't always happen. If they draft J. Jenkins I think you can punch Raji's ticket out of town.

 

[13 Times Champs]

I agree with your takes. But, we need to keep in mind that Brad Jones is a free agent, and D.J. Smith is also coming off an ACL injury. So, there's as much uncertainty behind Hawk as Raji - though I liked Francois in his limited opportunities in 2010. I'm all for getting rid of Hawk because he's the definition of a replaceable ILB and costs way too much for his play. But, unfortunately, there's enough uncertainty there that I'd be willing to bet Hawk sticks with the Packers at least through the summer until they can better gauge what they have behind him - I think we can cut him without cap issues through the summer or something.

You are really worried about Brad Jones being a free agent??? I say his going elsewhere is the best possible outcome.

None of the LB's we have excite me except Bishop and Matthews.

 

[13 Times Champs]

No exactly. Maybe we watch enough football to know what a top 3-down NT looks like. You should have seen enough DTs crashing the line into Rodgers face these last couple of years to know better.

It isn't only top 3 DT's that have been crashing through our OL.

 

[HyponGrey]

Actually we haven't seen that alot this year. The Packers only faced the 3-4 defense four times this season. Well five if you count the playoffs.
Of those Darnell Dockett got .5 sacks. No other NT had a sack.
Well then I've drunk some bad Kool Aid. It's not his job in the nickel either.
I can only think that you are trying to compare him to a 4-3 DT which he is not.

Dockett isn't a NT.

 

[HardRightEdge]

And just as many times it's not the DL job in a 3-4 to provide pressure.

Do you ever listen to yourself?

 

[adambr2]

Maybe this is why we gave up 45 in San Francisco. Everyone got their roles confused. While the D-line and defensive backs were busy not getting pressure, because it is not their job, the linebackers got mixed up and thought that tackling was not their job. Once this happened, needless to say, not much got done defensively.

 

[FrankRizzo]

Maybe this is why we gave up 45 in San Francisco. Everyone got their roles confused. While the D-line and defensive backs were busy not getting pressure, because it is not their job, the linebackers got mixed up and thought that tackling was not their job. Once this happened, needless to say, not much got done defensively.

Everyone did seem confused, from Capers on down... Woodson said as much.

Here's something to ponder: Today's NFL is more passing than 10 years ago... it used to be the defense's most important job and focus was to stop the run. And that's why the NT who ate up blocks was important, to free up the ILB's to sniff holes and get the RB.

Now with this read-option thing and more passing, that NT"s job & importance has changed..... look at Casey Hampton and the Steelers.

I like Raji and I wish we had 3 of him and 3 Mike Neal's, but all with Pickett's heart.

Raji is not worth more than 75% of Matthews. What's a shame is Clay has been paid a lot less than Raji -who was drafted #9 overall.
I still maintain that Clay deserves the new deal way before Rodgers, and Raji better take what he's earned.

 

[DevilDon]

No I agree, it doesn't define him, but he doesn't have the body of work in every other game to make up for it this year.

I never said Raji isn't a red chip player based on that, just have said that you don't give blue chip money to a red chip player.

We go through this with every potential FA. I heard the same certain comments that we would sign Cullen Jenkins, and sign Wells, and sign Jennings. It doesn't always happen. If they draft J. Jenkins I think you can punch Raji's ticket out of town.

I agree he shouldn't get blue chip money and I don't think he will. He'll get red chip money and he deserves that. I'm not in love with the player and I would love to see Jenkins added in the draft.
I believe Raji alongside Jenkins would be a monster DL front for a long time to come. My point adambr2 was just that you can't just toss him aside, those players are hard to come by and I'm happy the Packers have him.

 

[DevilDon]

Dockett isn't a NT.

You're right Hypon, the point I was making was that NTs in the 3-4 aren't known for their sacks.
That being said, Raji plays quite a bit as a DE too but I think people get too caught up in stats to acknowledge how good and how important he is to the Packers DL.

 

[DevilDon]

Do you ever listen to yourself?

Of course, always. Do you have the capacity to just ramble and not hear yourself? Hmmmmm.

 

[TJV]

No, didn't read it, give me one other who blasts Raji in that game and I'll read them both.

DevilDon may have me on ingnore so would someone else relay to him what I posted quoting what McGinn had to say about Raji's performance in the playoff game against the 9ers? If he's true to his word it'll at least get him reading "...Other than an early flush against RG Alex Boone, his pass rush was negligible", and perhaps wondering why a knowledgable guy like McGinn is wondering where NT Raji's pass rush went.

The idea that it's not part of a NT's job to get pressure vs. the passing game and penetration vs. the running is ... interesting. No player or position is constantly double teamed and when a NT isn't, it damn well is his job to get on the other side of the LOS. And if he wants to be paid with the best NTs he better even defeat that double team every now and then.

Everybody remember how special Raji was in 2010? Why was that? Because he became a black hole in the middle of the DL and sucked blockers into it so LBs could make plays? No: He recorded 6.5 sacks but even more important IMO were his 33.5 hurries (according to McGinn) that season. And if memory serves he also disrupted opponents' running game on their side of the LOS. Yes, he also took on double teams to free up LBs but that was only part of his job.

 

[DevilDon]

DevilDon may have me on ingnore so would someone else relay to him what I posted quoting what McGinn had to say about Raji's performance in the playoff game against the 9ers? If he's true to his word it'll at least get him reading "...Other than an early flush against RG Alex Boone, his pass rush was negligible", and perhaps wondering why a knowledgable guy like McGinn is wondering where NT Raji's pass rush went.

The idea that it's not part of a NT's job to get pressure vs. the passing game and penetration vs. the running is ... interesting. No player or position is constantly double teamed and when a NT isn't, it damn well is his job to get on the other side of the LOS. And if he wants to be paid with the best NTs he better even defeat that double team every now and then.

Everybody remember how special Raji was in 2010? Why was that? Because he became a black hole in the middle of the DL and sucked blockers into it so LBs could make plays? No: He recorded 6.5 sacks but even more important IMO were his 33.5 hurries (according to McGinn) that season. And if memory serves he also disrupted opponents' running game on their side of the LOS. Yes, he also took on double teams to free up LBs but that was only part of his job.

I do not have you on ignore Jack, I love your posts. You seem to be one of the sole voices of reason on here at times.
I sometimes choose not to comment on your posts if I disagree with you.
Again, why are you so adamant about pointing out one game as a testament to Raji's performance?
You among all people should be aware that teammates alongside of you sometimes allow a player to do more than other times. Raji was special alongside Cullen Jenkins and we haven't had another Jenkins since. Other DL have shown flashes but are not as polished yet. Would Matthews flourish with a talented rush OLB opposite him?
I know, you'll point out that Jenkins was injured in 2010 and Raji often played without him but teams scheme on the season not on a game. Raji was spelled often that year and the Packers have admitted they need to give him more plays off.
And it's interesting that you stick on words. I DID say it wasn't his job, what I MEANT was it's not how you define or rate that type of player.
I maintain Raji is a solid red chip player at his position, he will get paid as such and he will continue to be an important part of the Packers DL for the future. Red chip players are difficult to come by and one at his position is rare indeed.

 

[HardRightEdge]

DevilDon may have me on ingnore.

I'd consider it a badge of honor.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Of course, always. Do you have the capacity to just ramble and not hear yourself? Hmmmmm.

While brevity may be the soul wit, it degrades analysis.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Here's a must read; the ADD afflicted need not apply:

http://www.totalpackers.com/2013/02/10/you-make-the-call-green-bay-packers-2013-salary-cap-scenario/

While I disagree with the Raji conventional wisdom repeated in this link, the rest is nearly spot on in my view.

 

[HyponGrey]

I do not have you on ignore Jack, I love your posts. You seem to be one of the sole voices of reason on here at times.
I sometimes choose not to comment on your posts if I disagree with you.
Again, why are you so adamant about pointing out one game as a testament to Raji's performance?

You're a smarter man than me. I like watching him destroy my POV entirely too much.

 

[DevilDon]

Here's a must read; the ADD afflicted need not apply:

http://www.totalpackers.com/2013/02/10/you-make-the-call-green-bay-packers-2013-salary-cap-scenario/

While I disagree with the Raji conventional wisdom repeated in this link, the rest is nearly spot on in my view.

Do you mean to say the "soul of wit"? If you're going to quote The Bard it'd be nice to quote him correctly.
Brevity doesn't degrade anything. Being terse doesn't mean being superficial. Superfluous analysis is the product of an otherwise idle mind.
It is what it is, Raji is a red chip player who is not easy to replace and he will get paid accordingly. Anybody who suggests he be let go for cap money is just not in tune with the NFL.

 

[HyponGrey]

Here's a must read; the ADD afflicted need not apply:

http://www.totalpackers.com/2013/02/10/you-make-the-call-green-bay-packers-2013-salary-cap-scenario/

While I disagree with the Raji conventional wisdom repeated in this link, the rest is nearly spot on in my view.

Woodson is the logical choice, pay cut or just cut.

Fin is the hard decision. Considering his replacement candidates and the work that the TE in the draft need, I say re-sign cheap if you can, if not eat it, draft his replacement, and let him walk next year if his asking price doesn't drop.

Tray is the harder situation. If he doesn't win the starter gig he needs to take the pay cut, but he has skills you don't want to lose.

Hawk is lose lose, you still pay him the same to not have him, and you have to pay his replacement, there goes your savings.

Pickett is our best DL IMO, keep him this year, draft replacement.

Crosby will have competition

We pay Kuhn to block on 3rd down. EXP is a BIG factor in our backfield blocking and the only guy remotely close to Kuhn is Green.

AR and Raji can be pushed off til next year, Clay can't.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Do you mean to say the "soul of wit"? If you're going to quote The Bard it'd be nice to quote him correctly.
Brevity doesn't degrade anything. Being terse doesn't mean being superficial. Superfluous analysis is the product of an otherwise idle mind.
It is what it is, Raji is a red chip player who is not easy to replace and he will get paid accordingly. Anybody who suggests he be let go for cap money is just not in tune with the NFL.

I enjoy inadvertent irony. Call it a guilty pleasure.

"Superfluous analysis is the product of an otherwise idle mind." "Otherwise" in that sentence is superfluous, if not self-contradictory.

An uncut production of Hamlet runs about 5 hours. In context, the "soul of wit" line is intentionally ironic on a couple of levels. I guess you could say I enjoy irony whether it is intended or not.

We have post #87: "And it's interesting that you stick on words. I DID say it wasn't his job, what I MEANT was..." That too is accidentally ironic.

As for Raji, your black and white brevity bypasses the "soul" of the issue. Every contract decision has a cap value consideration. The 2010 Raji is the $8 - $10 mil/year Raji, not the guy on the field in 2011 - 2012. One SB hangover year might be overlooked; two in a row should be concerning.

Raji can play under his current deal in 2013, tagged in 2014, and again in 2015 if necessary, for less money than is being bandied about. That takes him out to age 30. I have a hard time seeing top dollar paid for inconsistent effort and intensity, especially when the deal designates the guy as a top dog in a clubhouse and on a defense with a lot of young players.

I'm not saying the Packers won't go down the road you prescribe because of the lack of alternatives ready-to-hand, which I've already abundantly acknowledged. However, there should be some nose-holding in the process. That other pithy adage, "beggars can't be choosers", rings of resignation to a slippery slope..

If it works out the way you describe, don't be surprised if two years down the road we're talking about Raji's dead cap hangover in the way we talk about Hawk's, but on a larger scale.

In mid-2011, after we'd had a good look at Cobb, I submitted the idea that we might not re-sign Jennings. There was zero agreement on that idea; in fact no willingness to even explore it. The cap always matters. If we draft high for a NT, you'll know efforts are being made to avoid the slippery slope.

 

[adambr2]

Raji strikes me as a guy who absolutely has the ability and talent to be an elite, top NT in the NFL, but feels like he is already good enough and isn't willing to put forth the extra work and effort that it would require to reach that level.

I freely admit this is based on my own opinion and speculation -- nothing that I've heard.

 

[TJV]

I do not have you on ignore Jack, … Again, why are you so adamant about pointing out one game as a testament to Raji's performance?

I appreciate the kind works and I wasn't being critical with the "ignore" comment. I thought you may have me on ignore because in response to adambr2's question whether or not you had read the Foot ball Outsiders piece, you posted: "No, didn't read it, give me one other who blasts Raji in that game and I'll read them both." That post came after my post #63 in which I quoted what McGinn had to say about Raji in the last game and he sums it up in his first sentence on Raji: "Raji closed with a dud." And BTW, I'm not adamant about Raji's performance in that game, I offered McGinn's comments in response to your initially saying 'no one' criticized Raji's performance in that game and then again with regard to the above exchange.

I know, you'll point out that Jenkins was injured in 2010 and Raji often played without him but teams scheme on the season not on a game. Raji was spelled often that year and the Packers have admitted they need to give him more plays off.

Actually - again according to McGinn - Raji averaged 53.5 snaps per game in 2010, and "a more manageable 46.8" in 2012. I agree the other players on D have an effect on their teammates but IMO regarding Raji it's mostly with regard to how often he's double-teamed. Of course that should be taken into consideration when rating, defining and/or evaluating his play. I also think Raji takes too many plays off and that's why I posted IMO the best defense for him is the number of snaps he's on the field.

Two points are at the heart of this discussion regarding Raji IMO.

1. Raji's value to the Packers is enhanced because of their lack of alternatives at NT. As I wrote in post #66, Pickett is being counted upon at DE and he's nearing the end of his career and he and Raji are the only viable NTs on the roster right now.

2. What makes Raji special is his "size/quickness" combination. For him to be a top tier player, for him to be worth $8M/year that has to translate into him using that quickness to be a disruptive force in the middle of the defense. And the evidence of that disruption is how often he penetrates the offense's side of the LOS. That's something we can use the "eye test" to measure. The statistical correlation is to tackles for loss and pressures. Of course he also has to "hold the point" against double teams but that's not what makes him special at NT. The good news is while he didn't match his production of 2010, he did improve on his performance from 2011 and one measure of that improvement is his increased number of pressures and TFL.

If we were evaluating a younger Pickett's value as a NT (only) regarding his worth to the team in real and salary cap dollars, we'd be talking about his ability to take on double teams and clog up the middle. While Raji is not as stout vs. the run as that younger Pickett was, he's more valuable because of his quickness. IMO refusing to define or rate Raji on what makes him special makes no sense because if we do so, he's worth less than the traditional NT like Pickett.

I agree with HardRightEdge I think having Raji play under his current deal this season makes sense and if they can't come to an agreement next season, tag him.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Raji strikes me as a guy who absolutely has the ability and talent to be an elite, top NT in the NFL, but feels like he is already good enough and isn't willing to put forth the extra work and effort that it would require to reach that level.

I freely admit this is based on my own opinion and speculation -- nothing that I've heard.

That would be my point, though I can't say I could criticize his work ethic per se. I have no idea how early he arrives at the ballpark, how much film he studies, or how hard he trains. But on many game days, he's looked like a guy with a ring and a Pro Bowl selection skating into his second contract.

 

[HardRightEdge]

What makes Raji special is his "size/quickness" combination. For him to be a top tier player, for him to be worth $8M/year that has to translate into him using that quickness to be a disruptive force in the middle of the defense. And the evidence of that disruption is how often he penetrates the offense's side of the LOS. That's something we can use the "eye test" to measure. The statistical correlation is to tackles for loss and pressures.

Another statistical indicator is something as simple as solo tackles. His tallies in 2011 and 2012 were about 1/2 his 2010 number. The naked numbers are not so meaningful (one less solo tackle per game), but it matches up with the eye test that he's not fought off blocks as frequently as in 2010, with fewer flash plays.

 

[BorderRivals.com]

Another statistical indicator is something as simple as solo tackles. His tallies in 2011 and 2012 were about 1/2 his 2010 number. The naked numbers are not so meaningful (one less solo tackle per game), but it matches up with the eye test that he's not fought off blocks as frequently as in 2010, with fewer flash plays.

It's hard to have solo tackles when the king of assisted/gang tackles A.J. Hawk arrives two seconds later to "help" bring the back down!

 

[Croak]

So I haven't been following threads much. I hope this is the right one. Headlines on ESPN today said that Finley won't take a pay cut and he wants to renegotiate the two year contract he just signed this past year. I think the Pack should cut him loose, save money and send a message that every player doesn't have to be a millionaire.