Silverstein on contract situation

[HardRightEdge]

Again, you think his job is to rush the passer? It's not his job. It's nice to get the pressure and it happened when he had Jenkins along side of him. I'm a bit surprised that people don't get the idea that he gets plenty of push in the pass game and he gets his in the run game.
My opinion is that you and Shawnsta and others really undervalue that position. The Packers do not.
The guy has game - pay the man. He's not a cast away, he's good, very good.

No exactly. Maybe we watch enough football to know what a top 3-down NT looks like. You should have seen enough DTs crashing the line into Rodgers face these last couple of years to know better.

If Raji is in the game in nickel (which he usually is), to say it is not his job to pressure the pocket means you've drunk some bad Kool Aid. If he's going to just occupy space in the passing game (which is too often the case), then it's time to make him a 2 down player with the appropriate salary.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Really? This is the same excuse given to A.J Hawk all the time. "Oh well, he takes up blockers so other guys like CM3 can get free" I don't buy that for one minute. That's just an excuse given to a player who can't make plays.

What NT in a 3-4 doesn't get double teamed? Like someone above said he also wasn't even double teamed on some plays in the SF game, which is pitiful.

I've watched every single game since Raji's been here. Most more than once. I think he is a top 10 DT and a top 5 NT but by no means elite. I don't think it's a coincidence that when Raji and the center of this defense play has dropped off (most notably last year) so has the defense as a whole.

It seems we have a growing list of highly paid players who's purported job is to "take up blockers", thereby resulting in a shrinking list of players, including marginal tacklers, whose job is to actually do the tackling. Is this football or a corporate bureaucracy?

 

[HyponGrey]

Name the playmaking NT in the league. I dare you. Ngata can NT but plays DE, Dareus is big enough to NT, but he played DE in the Bills 34 while an undersized Williams played NT. Why? (Other than that Dareus is much better suited to DE) Every currently successful 34 in the league has a stud do it all DE that they put next to their pass rushing OLB and use that combo to make plays. Our problem is that we try to use Raji as a playmaker contrary to the nature of his position. This begs the question: "How much is a top 5 NT actually worth?" The thing that drives up the value is materials and manufacturing. It takes a long time and a lot of work to make one, that kind of size(/athleticism combo) isn't common (though it is increasing in frequency), and thus a high failure rate at the position.

 

[adambr2]

I'm trying to visualize why you think Raji lost the 9ers game. How was he atrocious?
I think you miss what he's supposed to do and what your opinion on one player confuses me. Did you expect him to run down Kaepernick? What about the LBs on those plays? I am just lost how you think he was that poor.
I am wondering how you can say all that without knowing what his assignments were and the fact that nobody, I mean nobody among the press mentioned that he had a poor game. I can only surmise that you expect something he didn't deliver. Please advise.
You're wrong about not needing Raji. It's common knowledge that his contract is considered 3rd most important behind Rodgers and Matthews. What is everybody else in the NFL fanbase missing that you see?
No, I don't think Shields and or Jones will have to go. I think they'll get 'em all done if they want them all.
It's called a salary cap and you can't keep everyone champ. Sometimes you have to let a few go and if you think that Raji isn't necessary let's watch and see what the Packers do. I'd bet a hundred bucks they pay the man.
I get it's your opinion but it's a somewhat scarce opinion. Most fans recognize that Raji is a key component of this defense.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2013/word-muth-san-francisco-clinic​

#1 - I have already sent you this very detailed link of just how awful Raji was in the 49ers game. So far, you have chosen to ignore it. It has absolutely nothing to do with him running down Kaepernick. Don't say "please advise" when I have been, you just haven't been listening.

#2 - "No, I don't think Shields and or Jones will have to go. I think they'll get 'em all done if they want them all. It's called a salary cap and you can't keep everyone champ." In 3 sentences, you say they'll be able to keep Shields and Jones. Then you say you think they can keep all of them. Then in the VERY NEXT sentence, you say "you can't keep everyone champ." The heck?? (Using the very point I kept trying to make with you, nonetheless. )

#3 - Go watch the Packers/Texans game from this last season. Then tell me again how much they "need" Raji.

#4- Actually, that's no longer the popular consensus that they need to "pay the man", I would bet, if you surveyed most Packer fans. I'm not saying it's necessarily a vast majority, but it certainly isn't "scarce". I think you can tell that just from looking at the divided opinions here.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Still depends on what the market is for him IMO. Regardless of how hard it might be to fill, if he's looking for 6 years $60M, I wouldn't even bother negotiating.

You can always drop the franchise tag on him at this time next year as a backup plan if you need to keep him around and aren't in the same ballpark on negotiations. That gives them 2 years from now to find replacements on the D-line.

If you drop the franchise tag on him you will pay him more money in the short term. Where did the $60 mil figure come from?

 

[ivo610]

PFF has Raji the 7th DE in the league from a 3-4 D in their ratings. Mike Neal is 13th

 

[adambr2]

If you drop the franchise tag on him you will pay him more money in the short term. Where did the $60 mil figure come from?

The original article said the bottom line to sign Matthews would probably be at least "$70M on a 5 or 6 year deal," and "Raji's deal shouldn't be far behind".

So it was just a guess based on that. Maybe he won't be getting anywhere near that. If he comes back for the right price, I'm fine with it.

 

[Shawnsta3]

Yes, Really! If someone says Hawk is eating up blockers they don't know how the 3-4 is supposed to work. It's not the ILB job to eat up blockers.
As for "he takes up blockers" that IS what Raji and the other DL are supposed to do. That's the design of this defense. I don't care if you "buy" it or not. Go Google the 3-4 defense.
And let me ask you this: Who's making excuses for Hawk or Raji? I'm not. I'm merely saying Raji is doing exactly what he's supposed to do. My question to you is what do you want from him? More sacks? Pick 6's?
What part of not being double teamed in the SF is pitiful? Nobody doubles the nose or even any DE in the 3-4 every play. That's the game. That's football Shawnsta. He's likely only doubled if the play is coming his way.
OK, I'll take your rating. He's top 10 DE and top 5 NT. That's pretty darned good.
I've never said he is a blue chipper, he's a red. But he's substantially better than many others at the position and until you can find another you can't just take him for granted.
The NFL draft is a crap shoot. It would be nice if the Packers can get a nice stud NT or DE in the draft but until they come in and surpass Raji doesn't it make sense to keep the best you have? He's good Shawnsta, real good. As I said, pay the man!

Look I didn't say it was hawk's job to take up blockers. It was said by Hawks coach the defensive coordinator himself Dom Capers in the quote I posted earlier.

What more do I want from Raji? Well I know he's a big guy but for a start it'd be nice if we were going to give him all these snaps if he could give us a little more effort on most of them. Is that not what separates good players from the rest? Motor? Clay Matthews?

I wouldn't say the draft is a crap shoot but I would agree that it's uneasy at best. The same goes for free agency. I never advised replacing him. I'm just advising against giving him a monster contract. He is the best we have at his postition. I think Mike Neal plays better at his though. But that's besides the point.

 

[13 Times Champs]

The original article said the bottom line to sign Matthews would probably be at least "$70M on a 5 or 6 year deal," and "Raji's deal shouldn't be far behind".

So it was just a guess based on that. Maybe he won't be getting anywhere near that. If he comes back for the right price, I'm fine with it.

So the $60 million number has no basis in fact. Matthews is an A player so he'll get paid like one. Raji is a B player. I would expect him to get paid like one. But we need to keep our B players and surround him with more B players or better rather than C players like Neal.

 

[Shawnsta3]

So the $60 million number has no basis in fact. Matthews is an A player so he'll get paid like one. Raji is a B player. I would expect him to get paid like one. But we need to keep our B players and surround him with more B players or better rather than C players like Neal.

Agreed but I think Neal is on the rise now that he's healthy. Look for him to be a B soon enough.

 

[adambr2]

Hey, if Raji wants to come back on "B" player money, I'm all for it.

I just don't see it. I think he's going to want a multi year deal at a minimum of a top 5 average for DT's. Just my speculation and opinion.

 

[13 Times Champs]

[quote="Shawnsta3, post: 489267,

Don't think Neal will ever be anymore than average. Doesn't have the complete package.

 

[TJV]

I am wondering how you can say all that without knowing what his assignments were and the fact that nobody, I mean nobody among the press mentioned that he had a poor game. I can only surmise that you expect something he didn't deliver. Please advise.

In addition to the article by Football Outsiders referenced above, here's what McGinn had to say about Raji in the playoff game against the 49ers:

B.J. Raji closed with a dud. He was single-blocked by C Jonathan Goodwin on a 6-yard carry and pushed back too far on a 9-yard gain. LG Mike Iupati trapped the unsuspecting Raji on third and 1 to spring LaMichael James for 14. Raji sustained the final TD drive with the unpardonable sin of jumping offside on fourth and 1. Other than an early flush against RG Alex Boone, his pass rush was negligible. Who cares if this might be the best O-line in the NFL? His team was counting on Raji to provide much more than he did in a 68-play stint.

We don't have to know his assignment on a particular play to know it wasn't to be pushed 5 yards backwards. IMO the best "defense" for Raji is that he's asked to play too many snaps. But depending upon the down and distance it is part of Raji's job to get pressure on the QB. If he can't, he's definitely not special.

With regard to Raji's contract extension, how about this perspective: I would much rather waive Hawk and pay Raji Hawk's salary than vice versa and that has a lot to do with the depth (or lack thereof) available to take their respective spots. Here's the available replacements for Hawk (assuming Bishop comes back healthy): DJ Smith, Brad Jones, Terrell Manning, Robert Francois, Jamari Lattimore. Here's the list of the available replacements for Raji: 33-year old Ryan Pickett who by my count has played in 178 regular season NFL games, and Jordan Miller who has played in one.

 

[BorderRivals.com]

In addition to the article by Football Outsiders referenced above, here's what McGinn had to say about Raji in the playoff game against the 49ers:We don't have to know his assignment on a particular play to know it wasn't to be pushed 5 yards backwards. IMO the best "defense" for Raji is that he's asked to play too many snaps. But depending upon the down and distance it is part of Raji's job to get pressure on the QB. If he can't, he's definitely not special.

With regard to Raji's contract extension, how about this perspective: I would much rather waive Hawk and pay Raji Hawk's salary than vice versa and that has a lot to do with the depth (or lack thereof) available to take their respective spots. Here's the available replacements for Hawk (assuming Bishop comes back healthy): DJ Smith, Brad Jones, Terrell Manning, Robert Francois, Jamari Lattimore. Here's the list of the available replacements for Raji: 33-year old Ryan Pickett who by my count has played in 178 regular season NFL games, and Jordan Miller who has played in one.

I agree with your takes. But, we need to keep in mind that Brad Jones is a free agent, and D.J. Smith is also coming off an ACL injury. So, there's as much uncertainty behind Hawk as Raji - though I liked Francois in his limited opportunities in 2010. I'm all for getting rid of Hawk because he's the definition of a replaceable ILB and costs way too much for his play. But, unfortunately, there's enough uncertainty there that I'd be willing to bet Hawk sticks with the Packers at least through the summer until they can better gauge what they have behind him - I think we can cut him without cap issues through the summer or something.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I agree with your takes. But, we need to keep in mind that Brad Jones is a free agent, and D.J. Smith is also coming off an ACL injury. So, there's as much uncertainty behind Hawk as Raji - though I liked Francois in his limited opportunities in 2010. I'm all for getting rid of Hawk because he's the definition of a replaceable ILB and costs way too much for his play. But, unfortunately, there's enough uncertainty there that I'd be willing to bet Hawk sticks with the Packers at least through the summer until they can better gauge what they have behind him - I think we can cut him without cap issues through the summer or something.

Actually, there is a benefit to cutting him after June 1...dead cap money from the signing bonus can be deferred to next year. It's a "pay me now or pay me later" situation, but it could prove to have some benefit if it comes to that.

 

[TJV]

I disagree "there's as much uncertainty behind Hawk as Raji" for the following reasons:

Since Pickett is listed as the starter at LDE, he's not actually "behind" Raji at NT. The only "true" backup NT who doesn't affect another starting position is Jordan Miller who will likely struggle to make the roster. Miller was released by the Bears in August and was out of the league until the Packers signed in December. I'm hoping they've uncovered a diamond in the rough but it would be foolish to count on it. So as the roster stands today, there are only two players physically suited to start at NT and perhaps another in Miller.

Yes DJ Smith is coming off an injury but if he does return healthy IMO he would be about as good as Hawk - so for me only his recovery is in question. Also, if it is in the plans to waive Hawk and they'd like Brad Jones to challenge for that starting spot or be available as insurance, how easy will it be to keep him? I don't have any objective evidence to back this up so it is purely speculation but I believe the "ace in the hole" at ILB is Manning. They traded up for him for a reason and IMO that reason was he has a chance to bring the kind of athleticism to the position we've been hoping for. And then there's Francois and Lattimore. Francois started two games in 2011 and had 2 INTs, 3 passes defensed, and one forced fumble. He's been with the Packers for 3 years and played in 35 NFL games, almost all as a ST'er. Lattimore has been with the team for two years and has played in 23 games all as a STer (as far as I know). Yes, I'm sure the staff have reasons why Francois hasn't been given more of a chance from scrimmage but compare this commentary, whether you buy my analysis of the individuals or not, to the one above on NT. Of course the bigger question regarding ILB is the return of Bishop. If neither Bishop nor Smith return healthy of course they would want Hawk on the roster (they probably do no matter what). But beyond that, the situation at ILB is better not just because there are more bodies available, but because there's more experience and potential available than at NT.

I've got to post this again just so there's no misunderstanding: I think Hawk is going to play under the terms of his current contract in 2013. I just wish that weren't the case (paycut).

 

[DevilDon]

No exactly. Maybe we watch enough football to know what a top 3-down NT looks like. You should have seen enough DTs crashing the line into Rodgers face these last couple of years to know better.

If Raji is in the game in nickel (which he usually is), to say it is not his job to pressure the pocket means you've drunk some bad Kool Aid. If he's going to just occupy space in the passing game (which is too often the case), then it's time to make him a 2 down player with the appropriate salary.

Actually we haven't seen that alot this year. The Packers only faced the 3-4 defense four times this season. Well five if you count the playoffs.
Of those Darnell Dockett got .5 sacks. No other NT had a sack.
Well then I've drunk some bad Kool Aid. It's not his job in the nickel either.
I can only think that you are trying to compare him to a 4-3 DT which he is not.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Actually we haven't seen that alot this year. The Packers only faced the 3-4 defense four times this season. Well five if you count the playoffs.
Of those Darnell Dockett got .5 sacks. No other NT had a sack.
Well then I've drunk some bad Kool Aid. It's not his job in the nickel either.
I can only think that you are trying to compare him to a 4-3 DT which he is not.

For about the third time, sacks are not relevant. It's about pressure, preventing the QB from stepping up.

You bring up an interesting point, though. There are a fair number of 300+ lb. 4-3 DTs who are expected to run stop and apply pressure. According to your logic, a 3-4 NT can just blob up the middle in the run game and collect $10 million. Raji appears to be under the same misunderstanding.

If your view were correct, 3-4 NTs who should be lowest paid players in the league, not TEs. In that respect, we'd be in agreement that Raji is worth no more than the estimated TE tag value of $5.5 mil.

Barring that, he can wait until 2014; by that time he might demonstrate some kind of consistent motor.

The more we talk about this the more I think it might be our good fortune to have John Jenkins show up at the Combine at 360 lbs. so he'd fall to us. He might elevate Raji's game when he sees what a big man's motor is supposed to look like.

 

[adambr2]

We counted on Cullen Jenkins for interior pressure from the D-line. 3-4 DE vs. DT, but still. No one asks for pressure from Raji, Pickett, or Wilson more or less because they can't do it. Ngata can. So can Wilfork (the Patriots are running a 4-3 again, but Wilfork is just as effective at it as a 3-4 NT).

So while I don't think it is #1 on the job description of a 3-4 lineman, I think we more or less count on them only if they can actually do it, and excuse them if they don't because it's not their job.

It's like a corner that can crash the line of scrimmage and blow up an outside run. Is it their job? No, not really, but it sure helps the team if they can do it.

 

[DevilDon]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2013/word-muth-san-francisco-clinic​

#1 - I have already sent you this very detailed link of just how awful Raji was in the 49ers game. So far, you have chosen to ignore it. It has absolutely nothing to do with him running down Kaepernick. Don't say "please advise" when I have been, you just haven't been listening.

#2 - "No, I don't think Shields and or Jones will have to go. I think they'll get 'em all done if they want them all. It's called a salary cap and you can't keep everyone champ." In 3 sentences, you say they'll be able to keep Shields and Jones. Then you say you think they can keep all of them. Then in the VERY NEXT sentence, you say "you can't keep everyone champ." The heck?? (Using the very point I kept trying to make with you, nonetheless. )

#3 - Go watch the Packers/Texans game from this last season. Then tell me again how much they "need" Raji.

#4- Actually, that's no longer the popular consensus that they need to "pay the man", I would bet, if you surveyed most Packer fans. I'm not saying it's necessarily a vast majority, but it certainly isn't "scarce". I think you can tell that just from looking at the divided opinions here.

#1 That's one site's perspective on one player in one game. Sorry, If he was in fact such an abject failure it would have been noted in more than one "off the wall" site.
#2 Yes, you can't keep them all but I believe Shields and Jones will get done in Green Bay. They work the cap to perfection and IF one goes it's because the Packers didn't think they needed them.
#3 I don't have to watch any one game to tell me how much they need Raji. There isn't a sports writer or a fan inthe world with any sense of how the defense is run that thinks they don't need him.
#4 I don't know about any consensus but it's clear they want and need him and most sportswriters and people who follow the game for a living all agree that you have to "pay the man". I'd bet alot of money that you're wrong on a poll of Packer fans. I'd say the large majority recognize that he's' a lynchpin in the defensive line.
The divided opinions here reflect a small sampling. I'm actually surprised that anybody would find a contrary opinion to mine. Raji is a red chip player at a monstrously important position. Those guys are very, very difficult to find. You just don't let him go and grab another in the draft.
You don't have to take my opinion for it, watch what the Packers do. If TT and the boys think he's worth paying they will pay him. My bet is with Raji.

 

[HardRightEdge]

We counted on Cullen Jenkins for interior pressure from the D-line. 3-4 DE vs. DT, but still. No one asks for pressure from Raji, Pickett, or Wilson more or less because they can't do it. Ngata can. So can Wilfork (the Patriots are running a 4-3 again, but Wilfork is just as effective at it as a 3-4 NT).

So while I don't think it is #1 on the job description of a 3-4 lineman, I think we more or less count on them only if they can actually do it, and excuse them if they don't because it's not their job.

It's like a corner that can crash the line of scrimmage and blow up an outside run. Is it their job? No, not really, but it sure helps the team if they can do it.

Very much to the point. And the guys who fulfill the basic requirements of a starter, but don't provide that extra play making, all-tool performance should not get top 5 money.

 

[adambr2]

#1 That's one site's perspective on one player in one game. Sorry, If he was in fact such an abject failure it would have been noted in more than one "off the wall" site.

Did you ever actually read it? Football outsiders analyze a little bit more closely than a casual Packer fan sitting at home with Cheetos and beer.

It wasn't just them, either. It's fine that you think we should re-sign Raji, even though I disagree I still somewhat understand it, but to be in denial that he had an awful game in San Francisco is just delusional.

 

[DevilDon]

For about the third time, sacks are not relevant. It's about pressure, preventing the QB from stepping up.

You bring up an interesting point, though. There are a fair number of 300+ lb. 4-3 DTs who are expected to run stop and apply pressure. According to your logic, a 3-4 NT can just blob up the middle in the run game and collect $10 million. Raji appears to be under the same misunderstanding.

If your view were correct, 3-4 NTs who should be lowest paid players in the league, not TEs. In that respect, we'd be in agreement that Raji is worth no more than the estimated TE tag value of $5.5 mil.

Barring that, he can wait until 2014; by that time he might demonstrate some kind of consistent motor.

The more we talk about this the more I think it might be our good fortune to have John Jenkins show up at the Combine at 360 lbs. so he'd fall to us. He might elevate Raji's game when he sees what a big man's motor is supposed to look like.

And just as many times it's not the DL job in a 3-4 to provide pressure. You want it, you hope for it but it's not how you grade that out. If pressure comes from other areas as a result of your inside presence you've done your job. It just seems you're missing what he does HRE.
Yes, if a 3-4 NT can just blob up the middle he's worth gold. That's what Vince Wolfork does.
My view has never been that 3-4 NTs should be lower paid than TEs. Not even close.
What you completely seem incapable of grasping is that the kind of athletes who do that plugging are few and far between. God just doesn't make those guys plentiful. TEs are a dime a dozen. Almost every team has a good TE or at least capable. Very few teams have a top talent NT. That's why they get paid what they do.
Think about it, that's why teams go to a 3-4 because those big beefy guys are hard to come by. You can always find those 250 lbs guys for LB.
I like the idea of Jenkins to the Packers. I think they need another monster inside. Pickett is not getting any younger and it usually takes time for those inside guys to develop. We agree 100% on that. But I would never expect that he will teach Raji what a motor is.

 

[DevilDon]

Did you ever actually read it? Football outsiders analyze a little bit more closely than a casual Packer fan sitting at home with Cheetos and beer.

It wasn't just them, either. It's fine that you think we should re-sign Raji, even though I disagree I still somewhat understand it, but to be in denial that he had an awful game in San Francisco is just delusional.

What in the world is your obsession with one game?
Every single player to ever set foot on a football field has had an off game. What are you driving at? That since it was the last game it's the only one in your head? I get that.
Looking at the larger picture it's not one game that defines a career, body of work or even season. Rodgers has off days, Matthews has off days. It almost seems silly that you insist Raji is not a red chip player based on one game. Really? That's how you view the NFL?

 

[DevilDon]

Did you ever actually read it? Football outsiders analyze a little bit more closely than a casual Packer fan sitting at home with Cheetos and beer.

It wasn't just them, either. It's fine that you think we should re-sign Raji, even though I disagree I still somewhat understand it, but to be in denial that he had an awful game in San Francisco is just delusional.

No, didn't read it, give me one other who blasts Raji in that game and I'll read them both. In the meantime it's one site that you seem to have a love affair with and cite as proof.
I've read FO before, it's a stat site. That's fine if you're into that kind of thing. I just think football is more than stats. How do you measure the teammate next to you? It's a definite impact but nobody does that kind of stats machine. I said it before, Raji would be a beast with another superior DLineman next to him. I believe they have them but it will take some time. Neal will emerge and then you'll change your tune.